Merlyn_LeRoy

Just for clarity, skeptic is wrong. I've posted this before: http://www.westley.org/bsa2008.pdf These clearly state they are units in the "traditional scouting program," and given that most of the other organizations that are government entities have 0 chartered units, the Law Enforcement Agencies and Correctional Institutions stick out like sore thumbs.

Sherminator, I worked with the IL ACLU to stop charters to government entities back in 2005; however, the BSA can't be trusted to keep to its word, so all the still-illegal charters to law enforcement agencies and correctional facilities still need to be removed.

No, I actually change things, Ed. Complaining without action is whining.

Ed, when a law enforcement agency charters a BSA unit, it's no longer "legal discrimination," it's "illegal discrimination." And you, apparently, don't care about ANY discrimination, so your whining about what I'm doing rings hollow.

No, you do that Ed, you're the only one interested in it. I'm just going to stop more illegal charters.

Ed, the BSA is a least honest enough to not even attempt to issue charters to public schools now. And yes, I will be contacting whoever is the currect director of registration at the national BSA (Clarke Farrer or whoever it is now) and tell them to yank all the law enforcement charters immediately.

Ed, I've pointed out before that school officials have testified in court under oath that they thought atheists could join units chartered by public schools. Given the BSA's deliberate and continued dishonesty in charters to government entities, I have no problem assuming that the BSA has always been dishonest in how it deals with government charters. You can continue to try and whitewash their actions, but their actions speak a lot louder than your words.

Ed writes: Yeah an illegal contract. And the school district doesn't have any responsibility to read the contracts they sign I guess. Ed, how exactly is a public school official supposed to realize that they are expected to apply a religious test to all potential members and exclude those who don't meet it, by the wording in a charter agreement? Let's remember, the BSA is legally discriminating. Remember, the BSA lies. They stated they would stop chartering to government entities, yet they continued to charter to law enforcement agencies. Beavah writes: There has never been a court ruling by an appellate court that public schools cannot charter BSA units as a matter of law. Because schools dropped them like a hot potato as soon as issue came up. And the BSA didn't even attempt to argue that this would be legal. But I've also pointed out that the NJ supreme court Dale ruling essentially said that government entities would still be required to follow the NJ LAD even if the BSA could discriminate. Merlyn is speculating that doing so would be found unconstitutional on first and fourteenth amendment grounds. That's his speculation. "Against the law" is a hyperbolic overstatement. I am speculating that purposely nudging an asteroid into a collision course with earth would be considered murder if it hit and killed people, even though I doubt there is any law stating so. Beavah, public schools can't practice religious discrimination. Chartering a BSA "traditional" unit requires that the chartering org. practice religious discrimination. Your argument is just pathetic. What's it for? Do you seriously think public schools will EVER charter BSA units again?

Well, this certainly lowers my already low opinion of today's BSA members. Wasn't like that when I was a member; of course, back then excluding people while defrauding the government wasn't such a mainstay.

No comments on clearly dishonest actions on the part of the BSA? Why am not surprised?

The BSA approached public schools with an illegal contract; I've seen a number of BSA cases where school officials insisted atheists could join the units they chartered, so the BSA certainly didn't make it clear that public schools had to break the law to charter a unit.

NE-IV-88-Beaver writes: I wonder if someone from those public schools who chartered units ever asked, "After we start this unit, will it be okay if Atheists join?" It would have to be; public schools can't practice religious discrimination. Probably not and since BSA didn't hide it's beliefs, whose problem does that make it? Uh, the BSA certainly DID hide their beliefs. And they continue to act dishonestly.

scoutfish writes: Merlyn, Please, please tell me you do not have the audacity to try and tell me that a school or law enforcement agency discriminated agaisnt an athiest for the sake of being an athiest. When they charter a BSA unit, the BSA expects them to do just that. I've posted on this before; check the 2nd entry on this page: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=73389&p=4 Some of the links have broken, but here's an example of a public school chartering a Venture crew, and I personally contacted the BSA to ask if atheists could join this crew chartered by a public school. The BSA said no.

What's absurd about a BSA unit kicking out atheists? It's happened a number of times, Ed.

scoutfish writes: Daily practice vs formal wriiten policy. So what's the point in having National tell atheist kids they can't join? Here's the deal: You do not agree with BSA and it's policies. Okay, that's your right. But guess what, I do not agree with lots of groups, events, ideas and happenings. What do I do abouit it? WEll, if they do not take place on my property uninvited and I am not forced to attend... I do nothing! It does not hurt me or personally affect me Do you still take that position if, say, these groups had public schools or law enforcement agencies illegally discriminating against everyone who was a member of your religion? Everyone else is welcome, but anyone who belongs to your religion can't join. Oh, but some of them do let you join, as long as you aren't "uppity" or "angry" about it, and as long as nobody ever finds out (like seeing you attend a church that was of the "prohibited" religion) you'd have nothing to worry about, as long as you never, ever revealed your religious views to anyone. Simple, eh? And all done with your public tax money. Beavah writes: And no, no matter how helpful you are, you can't join an actual atheist group that requires atheism (like American Atheists). Yah, too bad, eh? Guess the BSA is a more friendly and welcoming bunch than you atheists are. Nope. AA is honest and not hypocritical. They say they are an organization of atheists, and they really are. The BSA still dishonestly charters units to "law enforcement agencies," even after they said they wouldn't. Nobody in James Dale's or Daryll Lambert's troops wanted them to leave, the national BSA forced them out. James Dale and Daryll Lambert were both adult leaders, not youth members, eh? So what? That wasn't a caveat before. However, I don't know of anyone outside of National who wanted to throw out the Randall twins, either. But since that screws up your imaginary situation, feel free to ignore it.

Beavah, if I had an atheist club OWNED and OPERATED by a public school, you can bet that students couldn't be kept out because they had the "wrong" religious views, whether they were "angry" or not. And no, no matter how helpful you are, you can't join an actual atheist group that requires atheism (like American Atheists, which requires that so they can state they are an organization of so-many atheists). Some private clubs have membership requirements that they follow. Plus, of course, your theoretical example doesn't match a lot of real-world examples where the BSA threw someone out AGAINST the wishes of everyone else in the unit and the unit's chartering organization. Which is where your "real policy and practice" completely falls down. Nobody in James Dale's or Daryll Lambert's troops wanted them to leave, the national BSA forced them out.

Beavah, when the real policy and practice of the BSA does not agree with the stated policy and practice of the BSA, doesn't that indicate something's wrong somewhere? Aren't people supposed to follow the official policy?

Eagledad, it's "never an issue" until it's an issue. If public schools still chartered units, kicking out an atheist would result in a lawsuit against the school, and probably the BSA (and maybe against individual leaders in the unit, too). First amendment rights are not something that can be ignored for convenience.

Ed, in case you didn't notice (and you didn't), I was referring to schools kicking kids out of BSA units, not out of school.

The "intellectual cowards" I referred to in the parent thread were people who both agreed with (or at least defended) the BSA's policies on atheists, but refuse to enforce them in any meaningful sense.

Just like I said, Beavah. If the BSA doesn't allow atheists (and they don't), you can'tmake excuses that allow atheists to join, nor can you "blame the victim" and pretend the BSA isn't excluding them and pretend they are somehow excluding themselves.

Well yes, it IS tiresome when the BSA's dishonestly is just waived away.

John-in-KC writes: The issue is if a parent, who says there is no god (sic), is willing to enroll his boy in a program where the boy will encounter faith in a godhead(s)? This isn't the issue at all. Every atheist in the US "encounters" people who believe in gods every day in schools, in public, and in many cases, at home. That's like saying the issue is encountering oxygen. It's everpresent. The issue is that the BSA requires members to also hold such a belief. And I find it somewhere between utterly hilarious and incredibly stupid that BSA members, many of whom defend the BSA's ridiculous policies in these forums, immediately try to softpedal, backpedal, or otherwise peddle some mealy-mouthed excuses to get around the very same policies. Look, if you belong to an organization that says "NO JEWS ALLOWED" and you support such an idiotic policy, you THROW OUT JEWS and you DON'T PERMIT THEM TO JOIN. You don't try to make excuses so some Jewish kid can join by pretending he's not Jewish and telling him to try and fit in by eating bacon. Many of you are just intellectual cowards. You belong to a group that excludes atheists, but you don't want to actually enforce it.

Ed writes: Why would the BSA tell public schools to kick anyone out? Because the BSA doesn't allow atheist members. Why WOULDN'T the BSA tell public schools to kick out people who don't meet their "standards" Ed? Shouldn't the BSA make it clear who can and cannot join? Oh, there's the slight problem that schools can't legally do that, of course, which is why the BSA has been dishonest in their dealings with public schools for the last few decades... acco40 writes: Also, the DRP only is listed on adult applications so it does not, or should not prevent children (Scouts) from joining the BSA. Unless they're atheists, and honest. And the DRP is on youth applications, just in the "information for parents" section, it's not like it's hidden or anything.

So does that leave Buddhists and polytheists in or out?