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Everything posted by Merlyn_LeRoy
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Sorry Beavah, that isn't a "club", and you couldn't find www.religiousstudies.umn.edu? The only real comparison you've handwaved without a real example. I also prefer what's working now, which means public schools can't run private clubs that discriminate on the basis of religion.
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Beavah writes: A school can sponsor an LGBT club with public dollars, but a school can't sponsor a Christian prayer group. It's hard not to see that as government-sponsored discrimination against a particular viewpoint. It's hard for me to see that, period. Where's a public school that uses public dollars to support an LGBT club and doesn't offer the same degree of support of a Christian prayer group? Just sponsor everything With all that infinite money public schools have, eh? How about this: let students create their own clubs; schools offer space on a first-come, first-served basis.
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skeptic writes: It continues to amaze me how you can twist anything to fit your point of view and crusade. You started this crusade; I remarked how students who have their civil rights ignored should use the court system to make sure their rights aren't infringed, and you, as usual, turn that into a cartoon where the person having their rights infringed is somehow the big bully with a bludgeon, while the people responsible for violating their rights go uncriticized by you. "threats" are used as tools to scare groups and government, who have limited funds for such things, into not defending the cases due to cost. Right, the big, bad high school student can outspend the government. Many of the "settled" suits would end up being won if they were to go to the end Not the cases I've been describing, but that doesn't stop you from lumping them in together. You don't bother with such nitpicky things as whether the people threatening the lawsuit might even be RIGHT. I have no hope that you will actually acknowledge my point I always do; you always cop out like this, whining that I'm not "acknowledging your point". YOU'RE the one failing to distinguish between two entirely different circumstances. Tell me, what SHOULD a student do if their school VIOLATES THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS? And this will be my only response to you regarding it, as even this is really pointless. Good day. Intellectual coward.
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As usual, people actually having the gall to peacefully use the court systems to determine what is legal and defend civil rights becomes a "bludgeon" in skeptic's anti-civil-rights view. Some people are just too uppity and don't know their second-place status. PS: By the way, skeptic, since my mention of lawsuits was SPECIFICALLY about atheists having equal rights to form non-academic school groups, is it your position that atheists do NOT have the same rights as everyone else to form non-academic school groups?(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)
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SeattlePioneer writes: And there are numerous situations where a child or adult who initiates a prayer in school will have his mouth stopped by teachers or administrators. I would say that there is a definite bias against religion or prayer in public schools even when that is freely initiated by students. Sorry, that's not an indication that schools are a "religion-free zone", that's an indication that some school officials break the law. I can point to people being killed every day in the news, but I can't use that to argue that murder is legal. In some places, schools have stonewalled the formation of atheist student groups, even if other non-academic groups are allowed. This shows a bias against atheists by some school administrators, but instead of claiming that schools are an "atheism-free zone", it's just another example of school officials violating the rights of students. The PROPER response is to sue the school and the adminstrators (though usually the threat of a lawsuit is enough).
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SeattlePioneer writes: Take atheism as an example. Government prevents schools from having a role in religion and prayer. In effect government enforces a religion free zone in schools. Complete hogwash. Can students pray in school? Yes, if they want to. They can also NOT pray if they want to. Their choice. Can government schools tell students to pray or not pray? No. It's unconstitutional for the government to tell people to pray or not pray, or to compose prayers for schoolchildren. The above is a short summary, and clearly supports religious freedom, NOT a "religion free zone". THIS would be a religion-free zone: Can students pray in school? No. Let me know if the above ever happens, because it is both unconstitutional and unenforceable.
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"Science" never said the world was flat. Eratosthenes measured the size of the earth to an amazing degree abotu 240 BCE. At best, a scientific statement about the shape of the earth would have to be "unknown" until one model had sufficient evidence, and a flat earth never had that. People could see that ships' hulls disappeared over the ocean horizon before their masts, and that an eclipse of the moon was probably the earth's shadow and that shadow was always round. Mr. Question Man: "Dear Mr. Question Man; I know the earth is round, like a ball. This means people must be walking on earth upside-down. Why then don't these people fall off?" Mr. Q-Man: "You have stated a common misconception -- people are falling off all the time."
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I am here, Lafayette -- er, packsaddle. I agree with the "one set of rules" but not about the "never changes" part; our constitution was written from the beginning to be alterable. As for god's rules never changing Eagledad, is slavery still ok, and do you advocate the death penalty for homosexual acts? And Eagledad, if you want to bring instincts into this, there is a fair amount of evidence that mammals, in general, will show a larger incidence of homosexual behavior as their population density gets too high. When your population is that high, reproduction is not favored, as that can lead to mass starvation. So under that scenario, having more non-reproductive members is an advantage.
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That's how they're similar; now state how they're different.
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The demise of a Handwritten note or report
Merlyn_LeRoy replied to OwntheNight's topic in Open Discussion - Program
archive.org has copies of the internets, including many websites that no longer exist. Try the way-back machine. -
NJCubScouter writes: Since it appears that Mubarak has handed over authority to the military leadership, it may be that the Egyptian people are about to re-learn the lesson, "Be careful what you wish for, you may get it." It's as old as the pyramids. I read somewhere that the USA is the only country in the western hemisphere whose government started with a revolution and that didn't fall to a military coup within a few years (and there were some close calls along those lines).
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The tune for the national anthem is an old drinking song, so I'm not going to complain about changing the tune, but I would like to know what word she used for "ramparts".
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Yes Ed, I see you've finally figured out that my opinion is my opinion.
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No Ed.
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You're displaying the same sort of disrespect, Beavah; somehow, coming around to a more nuanced view MUST entail belief in a god, eh? It's impossible to come around to a nuanced view and being a complete atheist?
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Oddly enough, I use my opinion in formulating my opinion.
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Well EagleDad, while I have pointed out how the BSA's policies are idiotic partly because I commonly see people on this board make all kinds of excuses not to enforce their draconian membership "values", this time I was reacting to how Beavah's attitude is completely disrespectful of a youth's capability to make up his own mind. It's also nonsensical to hold that youth members somehow ARE able to be sincere Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc and sincerely heterosexual, but being an atheist or gay is dismissed as being insincere and just an act of rebellion. If you can't respect the "wrong" decisions, you can't really respect the "right" decisions, either. Of course, this only points up how such idiotic policies in the first place result in even more stupidity.
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Beavah writes: As to Tuoc Syag, I reckon like most bright fellows of 13, his sudden avowal of being gay and atheist is the act of rebellion. I reckon you're hilariously wrong and in denial that teenagers can actually become atheists. Not everything is about rebellion against your favorite religion. Hey, maybe Eagle Scout Zach Wahls is heterosexual as a rebellion against his two gay moms! Or doesn't it work the other way?
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Ed, since the topic was lying to the BSA and not lying to the government, the government's degree of dishonesty isn't relevant. OGE, I hope it wasn't a brush-off like it first sounded. It wouldn't surprise me if some suicidal people distanced themselves by talking about "a friend" who is suicidal, even with a layer of anonymity already in place.
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Well OGE, I have to disagree. 1) It's very dangerous and stupid to blow off someone who talks of committing suicide, no matter what the circumstances. 2) The BSA has been far more dishonest than any individual scout, as the BSA has knowingly and willfully defrauded the government by having government charters for decades and getting funding like HUD grants that require nondiscrimination.
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John-in-KC, you don't seem to realize that someone can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time. Same with Jewish and atheist, or UU and atheist (it's practically de rigueur). It doesn't matter if the BSA recognizes Buddhists collectively, there are Buddhists who are also atheists. If you were in charge of admissions to a club that only allowed people with black hair, would you let in anyone Japanese sight unseen? Most of them have black hair, but you can't assume they all do. PS: Ed, you still can't learn things.
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OGE, a really good troll just posts once and sits back and watches. Oh, I'd better slap this down while I'm here... vol_scouter writes: It is not discrimination to be denied membership because you do not meet the requirements. Of COURSE it's discrimination vol_scouter. In the BSA's case it's legal discrimination, but it's still discrimination.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)
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OGE writes: There are plenty of scientists who are not Atheists, if you do not wish to beleive in God, that is up to you I disagree, OGE, it is not "up to him" (or anyone else) to decide what they believe. Here's a simple test: sincerely decide to believe in the Norse pantheon for an hour or so. Not pretend, but actually, sincerely believe it. You won't have to worry about getting kicked out of the BSA, because you'll still be a theist. So, do you think you can do the above? I don't think you can. I find the above type of claim is often used to justify discrimination against atheists, since they "can" (and apparently "ought to") change their views through mere force of will. Even though that's impossible.
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I usually stay within the limits Ed, but sometimes I get edited. PS: I'll give you chidings of great oy this coming year...
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Anti-nausea drugs don't work if you can't keep them down. vol_scouter, is getting high itself immoral? vol_scouter, should alcohol and/or tobacco be banned? You keep dodging this question.