Merlyn_LeRoy

PBS station WNET seems to think Hughes was gay: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ihas/poet/hughes.html Your objection to Watson doesn't change the irony. The BSA honored him but would not allow him to be a member because of his atheism (while his racist remarks would not have kept him out).

SeattlePioneer writes: "You recite the preferred position of atheists and the Supreme Court, which is to restrict or eliminate all religious expression in the public square. The only religious discussion to be accepted is that of atheists, on the theory that THEIR religious beliefs don't constitute a religion, and should therefore have a monopoly of expression in the public square." Baloney yourself, SP. The supreme court has hardly been promoting atheism all these decades. They've been pretty good at promoting religious neutrality, which some people just can't accept.

There's plenty of irony... When the Dale case was heading to the supreme court, Boy's Life had an article on Langston Hughes (around January of 1999) about how he successfully ended segregated seating in his classroom at age 12. So while the BSA was arguing that gays were not good role models, they had a story about a gay man as a good role model. I pointed out in this forum that at least one of the 20 subcamps named after living explorers in the 2005 Jamboree was an outspoken atheist (James D. Watson).

For example, the Detroit Lions are a secular organization I wouldn't call them secular; they have an official Christian chaplain.

So the new topic is new topics? Existential!

It was another newspaper article: The impetus for this meeting [with the Scout Executive of the local council] was a newspaper article printed in a local newspaper about gay youth. The article included a picture of Tim and his male date to his school prom. From bsa-discrimination.org

AZMike, for some odd reason you appear to think that only atheists would be in favor of including atheists in scouting, and the same with gays, as you use their approximate population figures as if they're the sum total of public support. That's not even close.

This wouldn't even change the situation for youth all that much; if a youth member has any inclination to continue in scouting as an adult, he'll still have to be in the closet as a boy scout.

"The Supreme Court decision made it clear that BSA retained a right to it's policy of rejecting homopsexuals because this was a consistant, national policy. If BSA proposes to adopt a local option policy, that exemption would very likely go away" As I had pointed out earlier in this thread, right now, every organization that charters a BSA unit must already have the legal right to discriminate in all the ways the BSA does. That's why public schools and government entities can't charter such BSA units. Even if the BSA changes, it doesn't change the legal rights of individual COs.

I was just showing how "don't ask, don't tell" is unworkable. The BSA, currently, allows only closeted gays, but this example shows how a person can be outed unintentionally by other people. That's always going to be a problem with any kind of DADT policy.

The obit had spouses/partners in parentheses, and her daughter was listed as "Carla (Julie) Hale", indicating a same-sex partner. Someone complained to the school and she was fired. http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/04/17/backers-rally-for-fired-gay-teacher.html

Why don't ask, don't tell don't work... Here's a woman who died: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dispatch/obituary.aspx?n=Jeanne-Roe&pid=163314539 Now, since her daughter was listed as "daughter, Carla (Julie)", she was fired from job at a Catholic school. It's even possible the obit was written by some other family member and she didn't even know she would be outed. Telling gay members to just keep their mouths shut will work just as well, as in not well at all.

SSScout, I think the UK Scouting Association is still debating (since December) whether to officially allow atheists.

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law. The scout oath says: On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc. Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law: A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas. I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends. Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered. Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together. I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate. Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion. I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it. "That is the way it was for years, and things went fine. And they still will if people just keep their PERSONAL lives to themselves" Skeptic, you keep ignoring facts that contradict you. James Dale kept his personal life away from his troop, yet when a newspaper story identified him as gay, he was kicked out. That's not "fine" in my book. Your way only works "fine" if atheists and gays never, ever reveal this fact to anyone on earth, ever.

My google-fu tells me this is likely to be Pack 3524, chartered by LDS-Cannon 5th Ward/Salt Lake Cannon Stake. Nearly all packs in Utah are chartered by LDS churches, Utah actually had the lowest percentage of units chartered by public schools back in 2005. The school is almost certainly in the wrong here, even without the Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act, as it appears to go against Lamb's Chapel v. Center Moriches Union Free School Dist., Knights of the KKK v. East Baton Rouge Parish School Board, BSA v. Till, etc.

I seem to have gone back in time a week and a half.

AZMike, atheism is not a religion (it can be a tenet of some religions, just like theism is a tenet of most religions), but atheism qua atheism is not a religion itself, just like theism isn't a religion. There are legal situations where it is (and should be) treated the same as a religion, just like corporations are sometimes, legally, persons, even though they aren't, either. And you as well as a lot of other people keep misquoting that Pew forum survey -- you can't conclude that "21% of self-identified atheists believe in God", because the question was "God or a universal spirit". Looking at the breakdown, it was 6% who believe in a "personal god", 12% in an "impersonal force", and 3% "don't know". Plus, I'm not surprised that many people don't know the definition of "atheist", including some people who apply the label to themselves.

"Merlyn why would an atheist be a member of a religion? Do you mean that they were raised in a certain faith but no longer believe or practice it?.." "Yeah, that's kind of a series of category errors on your part, Merlyn." There really are religions that don't require a belief in a god to be considerd a member. I forgot about the Ethical Culture Society, where the Ethical Society of Austin applied for a religious tax-exemption. The Texas comptroller denied it on the grounds that their religion didn't have a supreme being, but the TX court of appeals ruled for the ESA: http://org.law.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/new_devs/RJLR_ND_72.pdf Abstract: On March 6, 2003, the Texas Court of Appeals ruled that the use of the “Supreme Being†test denied the Ethical Society of Austin’s First Amendment Rights. The primary issue considered by the Court on appeal was whether the First Amendment afforded protection to unfamiliar religions that do not necessarily believe in a higher power. The Court held that the “Supreme Being†test was unconstitutionally under- inclusive and replaced it with the Malnak test, thereby affirming the lower court’s decision that the Texas Comptroller violated the Society’s First Amendment rights when denying a religious tax-exemption. So the ESA is a religion, and it has no supreme being to believe in to be a member.

"Yeah, that's kind of a series of category errors on your part, Merlyn." Nope, there really are religions that don't require a belief in a god to be a member of that religion. I also forgot the Ethical Culture Society; the Ethical Society of Austin sued and won to be recognized as a religion, even though the texas comptroller tried to require that their religion have a supreme being. It's an officially recognized religion that has no supreme being.

"Non-sectarian means the BSA lets in members of any religion." OK, the BSA isn't non-sectarian. They don't admit atheists who are members of a religion (such as Unitarian-Universalists, Jews, Buddhists, Raelians, various pagans, etc).

Aw man, that's terrible. I'll miss him.

How about the same thing when Explorer Posts got moved into L4L. Or make gods optional, like it is for oaths in court. As an aside, here's a billionaire former scout on the issue: ALLEN: Should the Boy Scouts of America rescind its ban on gay members and leaders? GATES: Absolutely. ALLEN: …Why? GATES: Because it’s 2013.

But every current chartering organization must already have the legal right to discriminate against gays and atheists, or they would be being sued NOW. The ACLU threatened to sue any public school that chartered a BSA unit that required discrimination against atheists, which is why public schools no longer charter units. You'll notice the ACLU hasn't been suing the BSA for excluding gays or atheists since the Dale decision 13 years ago. If a public school chartered a BSA unit that excluded atheists (or gays, probably), they would get sued regardless of whether the BSA has a local option or not, because schools can't do that in either case.