Merlyn_LeRoy

>Do you spend this much time telling churches to quit discriminating against atheists? In my mind, the government "supports" churches because my donations to the church are tax deductible. The government doesn't sponsor churches; the government DOES sponsor BSA units. There are atheist groups (and yes, even atheist churches) that are tax deductible, too, so there's no discrimination using your example; atheists and theists are treated equally. But when a government agency charters a BSA unit, they're running a "no atheists" youth group, which is unlawful.

>I suggest you put your tireless energies into improving scouting and not trying to tear it down. What I'm doing is trying to STOP discrimination against atheists by my own government. I don't consider that "tearing down" anything. >I would not tolerate any adult leader or youth in my den or troop who was intolerant to atheists. Can atheists join your den or troop? The BSA won't let you admit atheists even if you want them.

>"Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews?" >Grew up in such an organization, went to school with no Jews, no atheists, no blacks. Uh, no. There's a difference between a lack of Jews due to no Jews living in the area, and refusing membership to Jews. And I doubt there were no atheists; you just didn't know. >"How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving?" >Well, let's see first I have to leave my family because my father is the biggest bigot I know. >Then I have to leave my job because of the bigotry of some of the good ol' boys at from top to bottom. >I have to take my child out of public school because some of the top dogs are bigots (they are subtle but still are bigots). >I have to quit going to stores because all the businesses have some type of bigots or something I don't agree with. I have to have my utilities cut off because of their bigotry. >So, I guess I need to become a hermit (hermitess?) living off the land in the wilderness. Not sure where this will be since there are many, many bigots in the government. Of course, with your attitude, you can defend membership in the KKK equally well. >I have nothing against atheists. I do not fear them, hate them, or think they are misguided. Then why do you belong to an organization that does?

sctmom: >Let's assume for argument's sake he did say the quote. So what? That proves what? How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving? Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews? Would you leave it if perfectly nice Jewish boys were thrown out as soon as it was discovered they were Jewish? Would you leave if one of its leaders said no Jews could be good citizens and all of them were dishonest, and that leader wasn't replaced? Would you want a wholly-owned subsidiary of this organization to teach ethics to Jewish and non-Jewish kids in public schools? Really, don't you see any problem? All I've done above is change the way the BSA treats atheists to Jews; if you'd be repelled by such an organization's treatment of Jews, why is it OK to treat atheists this way? If you would refuse to belong to a group that treated Jews this way, why do you belong to a group that treats atheists this way?

sctmom on camp fire law: >They aren't forced to say it, but if it is said by the majority at every meeting aren't we at the same place of saying the Pledge of Allegiance with "under God"? True, it's similar, though camp fire doesn't throw out atheists like the BSA. The pledge decision is more of a problem because of government involvement; in a similar vein, the government ran into problems with the Boys & Girls Clubs running their Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department because their membership cards had "I believe in god" on them: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Aug/13/ln/ln07a.html

to kwc57, the Glen Schmidt quote is from a recent Scouting for All press release: http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/2002102901.shtml

sctmom: >You mention Campfire USA. If one of the issues is that kids don't have an alternative to Boy Scouts, you just pointed out that they do -- Campfire USA. How does an atheist deal with the Campfire promise to worship God? I don't know what promise you're referring to; searching on campfire.org for 'god' doesn't produce anything along these lines, and their web page says: We invite children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity. Camp Fire USA programs are designed to provide coeducational activities for all youth. Youth find a safe and inclusive place to explore the uniqueness of who they are, to master important life skills, to share with peers and adults and to develop assets that experts assert are essential to the process of building character and maturity. We require no oath or participation in rituals that may create barriers to inclusiveness. There doesn't seem to be any such promise.

bob white: >I stand by both posts. The 28 units you refered to were not chartered to the city of Chicago except for a few with police and fire departments taht were converted to LfL units. The others were with Chicago public schools many of which were converted to parent or neighborhood organizations and continued to meet. So, except for the police & fire department charters, and the public school charters, there weren't any. Ah. Yeah, I guess that really showed me.

In reply to OGE, thanks for the supporting sentiment, and no, I don't think the BSA is conspiring to teach hatred against atheists, it's just that the BSA teaches it by example. The BSA is a bad role model. There are plenty of examples in this thread. You yourself admitted that you felt that Glen Schmidt's statement was so outrageous that no comment was necessary, but Rooster has avoided even criticizing Schmidt's statement, and ScoutParent seems to support it by his/her sarcastic response. And didn't you question how Schmidt got to be a high-ranking BSA official with such an opinion? Do you think the response would have been the same if he had said it about Jews or blacks or Catholics? Could it be that having a bigoted opinion against atheists is no impediment to being a high-ranking BSA official? And why is that? Why is it OK to foment hatred of an entire group of people due to their religious opinions, as long as it's the "wrong" religious opinions?

bob white: >The threat of lost Chartering Organizations just hasn't happened. It's a device that groups and individuals use as fear mongering. The ACLU suit hasn't played out yet. You don't seem to argue consistently -- first, you seemed to argue that charters to government agencies were legal, then you said you didn't know of any public schools chartering BSA units, and now you're saying losing government chartered units (presumably some exist and will be revoked due to lawsuits) isn't be a problem. What are you arguing? ... >I really do not see a situation when we will run out of Chartering organizations that support and share the same values that are supported by the scouting program. Glen Schmidt is really helping you there, isn't he?

compass writes: >Nothing is preventing these folks [atheists] from starting their own organization. True, however it couldn't be part of WOSM, since WOSM only allows one group per country and the BSA is keeping atheists out. An atheist can be a scout in other countries, but if they move to the US they can't join the BSA. There are similar groups that don't discriminate, like Campfire boys & girls.

bob white: >I know of no scout unit charterd by a public school. In every case that I know of the unit is chartered by a parents organization made of parents that attend a particular school. That is a huge difference from being chartered by the school. You didn't know about Chicago chartering 28 units back in 1998, either. You don't even seen to know about the charters mentioned earlier in this thread. ... >So the argument about scout units and taxpayer based support is groundless. Keep whistling in the dark; there are thousands of BSA units that will lose their charters because of this. Keeping yourself ignorant won't help.

>"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." >Let's be honest and clear here. Yes, let's. >This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course. The "one scouter" being a high up BSA official. >People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters. I haven't been doing that; I've quoted it as being from Glen Schmidt, the dist. comm. chairman for the Chief Seattle district. On the other hand, you just quoted it as being from "one scouter", as if the person who said it was just some scouter. >It was one single solitary individual's opinion stated in the heat of an argument betwen two people. Period! To try to make it sound like this is the opinion of the majority of BSA Scouters against atheists is absurd and dishonest. It would be, which is why I've been careful to identify the speaker. I haven't seen many people here decrying Schmidt's defamation of all atheists as not being good citizens, so what kind of impression do you think that will have? If someone in a group says no Jew can be a good citizen, and few (if any) of the other members of the group even deign to speak up, you'll be judged by the company you keep.

Rooster7: >Just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Would you mind addressing the specific statement quoted? "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." Not "for the sake of argument", but what is your actual opinion? Is it bigoted to brand all atheists as "not good citizens" and dishonest? Now, if some BSA official had made the same statement about Jews or Catholics, I'm sure you'd easily agree that it was a bigoted statement; yet you've twice avoided giving a direct answer to the same statement against atheists. Do you see why I think the BSA actively promotes hatred against atheists, and all government charters need to be removed by lawsuits? Do you see why I think no public school should use the BSA's "Learning for Life" program, since it's headed by people like Glen Schmidt? Apparently not.

bob white: >The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so. Oh, yes. It chartered 28 units back around 1998: http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=2734 This was also back when the BSA discriminated in its Explorer program. One week after Chicago dropped its BSA charters, the BSA announced that career Explorers were moving to Learning for Life. See the Poloncarz & Winkler case. It started when a man was illegally excluded from the city's Law Department Explorer post, ironically enough. >By the way I understand The Chigaco Police Department still sponsors a youth law enforcement unit through the Learning for Life program. They can NOW, because the ACLU suit caused the BSA to stop discriminating in their Explorer program. It wasn't the BSA's idea, they were quite happy to have municipal police departments practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf; it took the ACLU to keep them honest. The new lawsuit is a larger version of the Chicago suit, and the ACLU will win for the same reasons; the US government can't charter BSA units that have religious requirements for membership. You may think it's a one-note song, but it won easily before.

bob white: ... >There are some forms of discrimination, in certain circumstances, that are illegal, and others that are not. >The form used by the BSA has been judged as legal. Only for the BSA as a private organization; the government can't practice religious discrimination, and the BSA decision didn't change this. >Merlyn may feel they are illegal, but Merlyn's opinion carries no legal weight. Neither does yours. The KKK legally has a whites-only organization, but it isn't legal for the government to run branches of the KKK, either. That's why Chicago dropped all its BSA charters rather than try and defend it in court.

>Another assault by the minority....Merlyn, take kids who don't believe in a higher being and start your own organization. The military sponsors organizations overseas so kids don't have to miss even more while their parent's are defending atheists rights to be atheists. What if the kid and/or the parents are atheists? Oh, then their rights don't count, I suppose. The ACLU lawsuit won't prevent the military from sponsoring youth groups, just ones that discriminate in ways the government can't. It would be perfectly fine if all the BSA units were changed to Campfire. So now even the atheist kids can join, instead of being turned away from a youth group run by their own government. See how that works? If you want a private, discriminatory organization, get used to losing special government support.

rooster7 writes: >Bigotry against people who refuse to believe in and/or recognize God? Hmmm. >So, if a group or individual does not want to associate with another group or individual that believes in and/or does something distasteful to them, we must label that bigotry? Would you mind addressing the specific statement quoted? "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." For way of comparison, here is the same sentiment, except against Jews: "Anybody that's Jewish isn't a good citizen, and that if a Jew found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." Now, if a "no Jews" group had a leader that said that, I'd say the speaker was bigoted against Jews. Furthermore, if I asked some members of that group about this statement and they didn't even address the inherent bigotry but instead rambled on about their "freedom of association", as if that excuses bigotry, I'd say they were bigots, too.

>Jim Crow laws encouraged discrimination and bigotry. Faith in God means acknowledging and respecting the creator of the universe. Let's see, is the Chief Seattle district commissioner chair encouraging bigotry when he says "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." ? Should he be removed from his position so he won't encourage bigotry against atheists?

bob white: >That does not change the fact that if a government agency chooses to charter a scout unit, they do not have the authority to lessen the joining requirements. That also doesn't change the fact that government agencies can't legally charter scout units that exclude atheists. As to OGE, class-action lawsuits always take a long time; it took about two years for the original suit against Chicago to be settled, and that didn't even go to court. As to military chaplains, I don't know of any court decisions, but in any case, it doesn't compare because military chaplains serve all soldiers, whereas a BSA unit excludes people based solely on their religious views. Compass: >Let me ask a question: why would you want to associate with a group and program that you disagree? I don't; I want to remove unlawful government support of an organization that denegrates atheists, just as some people wouldn't want the US government to run "whites only" youth groups, or have school ethics programs run by someone who thinks all blacks steal.

>>"These units are chartered by the US military and cannot exclude atheists; ask Brad Farmer and the other BSA execs if they expect the US government to practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf. >This argument is built on a false premise. It suggests that the the because the unit is chartered to a specific organization that the members are members of that organization and that is not true. No, that's not my argument at all. A government agency can't discriminate on the basis of religion; they can't run, own, or sponsor a youth group that excludes atheists. Period. >Scouts and scouters are registered with the BSA and so are bound by the membership and joining requirements of the program they are members of. The Chartered organization, contract with the BSA, may have more restricive requirements than the BSA but cannot be less restrictive than the BSA. Which is why no government agency can legally charter a BSA unit that excludes atheists. They'll all get scrapped by the ACLU lawsuit.

>This page >http://members.doubleknot.com/Pack4567/about/ScoutingOnSubase/scoutingonsubase.html >clearly states "Cub Scouts: Sponsored by the CO of Subase, Capt. Baker" >and >"Boy Scouts: Sponsored by the PACNORWEST MWR David Della Rovere" PACNORWEST MWR is the Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department of the Pacific Northwest Surface Group, which is certainly a government agency. And, as before, I doubt that the cub pack is chartered to an individual.

>>"Nothing to say about the BSA's dishonesty in chartering units to government agencies?" >I would say that the rules, policies and procedures are pretty obvious. If not, recent court cases make it so. >Merlyn_LeRoy, I'm not sure about your point here. If you think something is wrong, if you think laws are being broken, I would suggest you take action and contact your Congressman or Senator regarding it. Of course, the judicial route is always available I guess you're not aware of the ACLU lawsuit to remove all BSA charters from government agencies; aside from that, I would also say that the rules by which the US government must act are also pretty obvious, yet the BSA continues to charter BSA units to government agencies that can't exclude atheists. As usual, you, like so many other BSA supporters, turn a blind eye to this. Would you see anything wrong if government agencies ran youth groups that didn't allow Jews? Would you see anything wrong if public school ethics programs were run by people who considered no Jews to be good citizens, and all Jews to be dishonest?

>I went to that site like you suggested. I found nothing about Scouting there. I was quoting the pack's page; they call bangor.navy.mil their chartered organization. And again, I don't know of the BSA chartering units to individuals, only organizations.

>Maybe you need to go back and read the website. The Pack was originally sponsored by the base, but now is sponsored by the Commanding Officer. So yes, I was right. Doesn't look that way to me: "More about our Chartered Organization: http://www.bangor.navy.mil/" And I've never heard of an individual chartering a BSA unit, it's always an organization.