Merlyn_LeRoy

njcubscouter writes: What can I say. Being a moderate in this world is becoming increasiningly difficult... What can I say, government-supported religious discrimination is NOT moderate, it's unconstitutional. If a city was giving free office space to a group that excluded Jews, I suppose your "moderate" view would be that it's OK, a lot of city governments would look the other way if it's only Jews who are being left out. Of course, if that isn't your view, it's even worse, because now your advocating that governments ought to give free office space to groups that discriminate against people you don't like, and ought NOT discriminate against people you DO like. And now you've got the government enforcing your religious prejudices. And I bet you can't even see this, and you still think you're being "moderate", since you only advocate that the government screw over atheists and not Jews. That's mighty white of you.

njscouter writes: The way I resolve this, at least for myself, is that I suspect that if the BSA had made the "gay thing" a non-issue by dropping the ban or permitting local option, then many government entities might have "looked the other way" when it came to the "atheism thing." What the federal courts would have done, I can't say. Well, atheists sure wouldn't "look the other way" when government agencies practice discrimination against them, and the federal courts have been pretty good about protecting atheists' rights. And the BSA brought this problem on itself in any case; whether you think atheists are or are not compatible with the BSA program has nothing to do with whether the city of Philadelphia can give free office space to a religiously discriminatory organization.

There's also this recent article in the Boston Globe (watch the wrap, it'll probably break): http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/09/14/embattled_scouts_struggle_to_maintain_funding_ideology/ ... The negative fallout from scouting's policy against gays, and a separate ban on atheists as members or leaders, is beginning to spread to the courts. When confronted with disputes surrounding scouting, lower courts in recent months have tended to shift away from protecting local councils when their policies get them into trouble with government agencies. Courts still will not disturb the Scouts' constitutional right to follow those policies; the Supreme Court settled that in 2000. But courts seem less willing to spare the Scouts the consequences. In July, a federal appeals court upheld a decision of the Connecticut state employees' committee to exclude a local Scout council from an annual charitable giving campaign. The same month, a federal judge in California nullified an exclusive lease the Scouts had to use a part of the city of San Diego's Balboa Park; the judge ruled the contract was a form of unconstitutional favoritism for a religious organization. Lower state courts in California have upheld Berkeley's decision to deny marina access to Sea Scouts, a case now pending in the state's Supreme Court. ... Also note that, once again, Learning for Life numbers are included in the total numbers, as if the atheists and gays in Learning for Life programs show that they "support" the BSA's discrimination against them.

njcubscouter: Merlyn, I want to make sure I am understanding you. You are not equating the absence of belief in an "anthropomorphic" or "personal" God with atheism, are you? No.

OGE writes: I thought I saw something last week about the ACLU making an attempt to get crosses and other religious symbols off all federal land, is that right? There are a number of lawsuits pending against various crosses on public land, many of them from the ACLU, but not some type of class-action suit against "all public land", as that would include sites like public forums and cemetaries, where the ACLU has fought for the right of people to erect religious symbols. There are suits over crosses in Mojave National Preserve, Mt. Helix, Mt. Davidson, Mt. Soledad, and probably others. A number of crosses have been removed from government land, such as Santa Barbara, Oklahoma City, Kolekole Pass, Eugene, etc, but not all of these involved the ACLU.

Some of the most pre-eminent scientists have written fascinating stories about their belief in a God (Hawking, Einstein, etc.) Hawking: "I do not believe in a personal God." Hawking has this canned answer programmed into his voice synthesizer when he is asked about god by reporters. Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." [Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press] " Both have used god as a metaphor when writing about physics, but it would be rash to think they're talking about their personal beliefs in an anthropomorphic god. Merlyn, surely you must understand that for many, believing in a higher being does offer them comfort and for them, an improvement in their life. Why do you think I don't realize this?

Ed, you won't tell me what parts of childbirth, leaves changing colors, or spontaneous remission require gods to work. There is all sorts of material on the web about these subjects and how they work, and none of them require gods. Sorry, I don't feel like being your private, unpaid tutor by posting megabytes on subjects you should have learned in school. If you want to assert that gods are required for any of the above, please specify how. You seem to have the idea gods are required, but you can't point to what they actually DO.

"People believe that the world is flat and that if you catch a Leprechaun, he'll give you his Lucky Charms." And people believe that the world is only a few thousand years old and that if you pray to an invisible superbeing, you'll be cured of disease.

hops_scout writes: Merlyn, I also have a question for you.... Why do you hang around here if you dont believe in the basis of the forum? It is for "scouting discussions". And this group is for scouting issues, particularly the "three Gs", and that's what I've been discussing (except when sidetracked, such as this thread started by OGE). I usually post in threads concerning the BSA's discrimination and government; since various government agencies have BSA charters, and it's unlawful for the government to practice the BSA's discrimination, the government will be forced to drop them (mostly due to ACLU lawsuits, since the BSA is too dishonest to drop them, and most government reps are either likewise dishonest or too stupid to realize the BSA expects them to unlawfully practice religious discrimination when they charter a BSA unit).

The Flat Earth Society would get a lot more flak if they were trying (and in some cases succeeding) in getting flat-earthism taught in public schools as "equal time" for the round-earth theory, laws passed which advance flat-earth philosophy, monuments promoting a flat earth in public court buildings, and a recent president who has said that people who aren't flat-earthers shouldn't be considered citizens or patriots.

FOG says: Merlyn now takes the classic atheist tack of insults which he earlier claimed that he didn't do. When did I claim that? And, like a typical theist, you're backpedalling on what the bible says. First, you claimed it didn't say what it clearly DOES say. Now, of course, you say anyone who prays who doesn't get what they pray for isn't a "true believer". I guess having to choose between "my inerrant holy book is wrong" and "these parents who bet their daughter's life on their beliefs just weren't TRUE believers" was just too hard. And if you've ever prayed for something and didn't get it, you aren't a true believer, either (or at least, you weren't at that time). Of course, Ed decides to answer it yet another way, which STILL results in Matthew 21:22 being a lie, because it doesn't say "you'll get what god knows you should get", it says you'll get what you ask for. But it's pretty hard to defend your religion when I can point out that Matthew 21:22 is simply a false statement. If it were true, isn't it likely that at least one true believer over the centuries would have prayed for, say, all people to be cured of cancer? I guess god is too busy with cheap conjuring tricks like making statues weep and Jesus is all booked up appearing in tortillas. Ed, satan is as imaginary as any other god. Childbirth and leaves changing color and cancer remission don't involve gods, and if you think they do, why don't you suggest what part god is involved in - does he paint the leaves with a magical can of paint? Do you think angels push planets around in their orbits? People used to believe that, you know.

Since 'condemn' has a number of meanings including 'adverse judgement against', it's a valid description.

FOG: >Let's see . .. "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." > >Hmmmm . . . nothing about "healing without medicine" here. It says "you WILL receive whatever you ask for". So if a true believer prays to be healed, this bible verse says they WILL be healed -- even if they have no access to medicine. However, like so much of the bible, it's a lie. If prayers healed people, modern medicine would not have been developed, because people could just pray problems away. But that doesn't work, so people have developed methods that actually work, whether you believe in the right gods or not. US law is finally reaching the point where praying for healing is not recognized as adequate medical treatment; unfortunately, children of a number of stupid, superstitious adults have had to die of treatable diseases for this to happen (see e.g. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an011109-02.html ) No doubt these parents and many of their parishoners prayed sincerely for their child to be healed, but since they put their trust in a lie, she died quite painfully. Ed, gods don't involve themselves in childbirth, so I don't know why you think gods are needed to explain it. The same with the leaves changing color or cancer remission. I guess if you don't understand how an engine works, you'd abscribe THAT to god, too. "god" is just shorthand for "something Ed doesn't understand".

"condemn" wasn't my wording, it was the headline the newspaper used. And I use the old song-and-dance about government funding because it can't support the BSA's discrimination; this resolution points out that the BSA's discrimination is contrary to CA state policy.

I see Fat Old Guy doesn't believe what the bible says. Figures. Ed, it's impossible to explain anything to you.

Your church never taught Matthew 21:22? The MAAF prez is with the 1st armored division.

This seems to be the final version of the bill as passed: http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0051-0100/acr_89_bill_20030825_enrolled.html BILL NUMBER: ACR 89 ENROLLED BILL TEXT PASSED THE SENATE AUGUST 25, 2003 PASSED THE ASSEMBLY APRIL 24, 2003 AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY APRIL 10, 2003 INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Goldberg (Coauthors: Assembly Members Bermudez, Chu, Diaz, Dutra, Firebaugh, Hancock, Kehoe, Koretz, Laird, Leno, Lieber, Longville, Lowenthal, Montanez, Nation, Pavley, Ridley-Thomas, Vargas, and Wiggins (Coauthor: Senator Kuehl) APRIL 8, 2003 Assembly Concurrent Resolution No. 89--Relative to the Boy Scouts of America. LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST ACR 89, Goldberg. Boy Scouts of America. This measure would recognize the efforts of Boy Scouts who earn the rank of Eagle Scout and encourage the Boy Scouts of America to accept for membership and leadership positions all qualified boys and men, without discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or religious belief. WHEREAS, Since the founding of the Boy Scouts of America, millions of Boy Scouts have taken the experience of scouting and gone on to contribute great things to society; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout can be followed, as he is a leader in his troop and community, regardless of the scout's race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, political affiliation, sexual orientation, or disability; and WHEREAS, The list of former Boy Scouts includes diverse role models and leaders; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout lives honorably, not only because honor is important to him, but because of the significant example he sets for other scouts; and WHEREAS, Loyalty to his troop and brother scouts makes him "pitch-in" and carry his share of the load, recognizing the devotion to his family and the community in which he lives; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout's courage means standing up for what he believes in without compromising his own beliefs; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout looks forward to each day, seeking his share of the world's work to do; and WHEREAS, Honor, loyalty, and courage are hallmarks of scouts who admirably represent the community, council, and troop in their daily lives; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout always wears a smile as a constant reminder of cheerfulness; and WHEREAS, A Boy Scout is helpful in service and will always "Be Prepared" to put forth his best; and WHEREAS, The character traits represented by Boy Scouts are symbols present in the Boy Scout badge, worn proudly on the uniform, by youth in this state and across the country; and WHEREAS, It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping to instill values in young people, and in other ways to prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime in achieving their full potential; and WHEREAS, The values that the Boy Scouts of America strives to instill are found in the Boy Scout Oath and Law; and WHEREAS, Boy Scouts are required to abide by the Scout Law and Scout Oath which proudly uses such terms as "honor," "trustworthy," and "loyal;" and WHEREAS, Many Boy Scouts have been forced to hide their identity in contradiction to the Scout Mission, Law, and Oath, and Boy Scouts and scout leaders who were open about their sexual orientation have been expelled from scouting; and WHEREAS, The policy of the Boy Scouts of America to bar from membership or leadership positions otherwise qualified individuals solely on the basis of their sexual orientation or religious belief causes harm to the innumerable boys and men such as James Dale who, regardless of their hard work and merits, are denied the opportunity to hold the rank of Eagle Scout or participate in any way in the Boy Scouts of America; and WHEREAS, Many former Boy Scouts have left scouting and formed their own inclusive organization, Scouting for All, in an effort to bring the values of scouting to youth without discrimination; and WHEREAS, The discriminatory policy of the Boy Scouts of America is contrary to the policy of the State of California; and WHEREAS, Other similar organizations such as the Girl Scouts, Camp Fire Boys and Girls, and the Boys and Girls Club serve as role models for the Boy Scouts of America because they do not discriminate against youth and adults; now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Assembly of the State of California, the Senate thereof concurring, That the Legislature recognizes the outstanding efforts of Boy Scouts who, through persistence and hard work, earn the rank of Eagle Scout; and be it further Resolved, That the Legislature encourages the Boy Scouts of America to accept for membership and leadership positions, including the rank of Eagle Scout, all qualified boys and men, without discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or religious belief; and be it further Resolved, That the Chief Clerk of the Assembly transmit copies of this resolution to the author for appropriate distribution.

http://www.thepresstribune.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=2954 The state senate voted 22-15 Monday in favor of a resolution critical of the Boy Scouts of America for not accepting gays and atheists as members. Sponsored by Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg (D-Los Angeles), Assembly Concurrent Resolution 89 praises the Boy Scouts for their service and role in helping youth, but the end of the bill asks that the organization to allow all qualified applicants to join the organization without discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or religious belief. With the Supreme Court ruling 5-4 in 2000 upholding the Scouts decision to bar gay troop leaders, the organization has largely retained the right to enforce its oath and its own guidelines for membership. But the resolution passed Monday is an effort that Goldberg hopes will induce the organization to change its membership rules. Pressure from gay rights supporters and groups has impacted funding for the Boy Scouts as part of the campaign, as major donors like United Way have pulled financial support because of the Scouts unwillingness to change their policy. The resolution passed the Assembly in April by a vote of 43-2. Goldberg is upbeat about her resolution passing the Senate floor, with a vote split down party lines. She says a necessary first step toward getting the Boy Scouts into the 21st Century. I think its important for the state of California to speak up and not be silent, and to say to the Scouts, if you have a religious belief, thats your belief. But keep it separate from a youth-serving agency that serves kids in all neighborhoods, Goldberg said. I hope we put pressure on them to make this open to all kids. Anybody who knows me and my family knows we love scouting. This is out of concern for (Scouts). Goldberg says that she knows many scouts, including Eagle Scouts, who have quit the organization because they dont agree with the policy. But State Sen. Rico Oller is upset with what he sees as an attack on a private organization, in a manner which is one form of discrimination replacing another. Our moral values in Boy Scouts are being treated as if they were inferior values, Oller said. Gay and lesbian groups are saying that we, with traditional Christian values, have to accept people who are avowedly opposed to those views. The Boy Scouts should be able to be the Boy Scouts, an organization based on faith, God and duty. You cant have it both ways. The Boy Scouts are a private, non-profit organization, and includes support from the Mormon and Lutheran churches. Goldberg says the issue of whether or not Scouts were even gay never even came up until the last 10 years, which is why she is seeking to protect those who may be barred. They ask in lots of places. They tell them in some places that you cannot be a Boy Scout if youre gay, Goldberg said. There are a lot of kids who are not going to pretend they are not gay anymore. Attempts to contact the Boy Scouts local and regional offices were unsuccessful. However the organization has gone on record as stating it hopes to move on from the issue and put it behind them. Though the United Way and other organizations have pulled funding for the Scouts, the group moves on, finding other donors in many instances sympathetic to a group that is caught in the crossfire of a contentious issue. And Oller believes the issue is really about something else. This is about hate on the part of the radical gay and lesbian community, on organizations that are founded on more traditional values, he said.

You can find a lot of atheists in foxholes at maaf.info, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers; the MAAF president is currently deployed to Iraq. Perhaps the old "no atheists in foxholes" should be turned around to "no christians in hospitals", since TRUE christians would just pray to get well, right? Hmm, looks like the demon theory of disease really should be thrown out: http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/states/wisconsin/6643191.htm If there really IS a supreme being, does that being allow polygamy or not? If such a basic societal question can't be answered (and it can't, since major monotheistic religions don't agree on this), how can people claim to "know" what this supreme being wants if they can't even agree on such a straightforward question? About the best thing I've read about gods is "you'll know you've created god in your own image when he hates the same people you do". I see a lot of that.

So you're saying you believe werewolves exist?

I don't remember the subject ever coming up, so no, I wasn't brainwashed. My son was raised similarly, and I think he's an atheist, though I haven't asked him lately. Oddly enough, if you don't tell kids that invisible superbeings exist, most don't believe invisible superbeings exist, just as if you don't tell kids that werewolves really exist, most don't believe werewolves really exist. You don't have to explicitly tell them that such things do NOT exist.

I'm don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in werewolves; because I see no reason to believe such things exist. Both my parents were atheists, but each of them had been raised in some religion.

As I've said, your questions are loaded; they contain assumptions, much like "have you stopped beating your wife?" If you want my opinion on the actual questions, my opinion is that your questions are loaded, dishonest, and contain invalid assumptions.

The judge's decision (in Adobe Acrobat format) is up on the ACLU of San Diego's website at: http://aclusandiego.org/pdf/MSJorder.pdf

dsteele, there is no federal legislation prohibiting the military from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation (or height, weight, etc). The federal government can't discriminate on the basis of religion due to both legislation and the constitution, which is why the ACLU is suing the DoD over BSA charters; the lawsuit only concerns religious discrimination. slontwovvy, I keep telling you, you haven't bothered to ASK me what MY opinions are, and I see no reason I should defend positions YOU'VE made up for me to defend. That's just stupid.