Merlyn_LeRoy

"That's about what I figured; a century ago, much the same was said about Jews No more like liver and onions. I do not care for the the taste. People said much the same thing about Jews; nothing personal, they just didn't like Jews. And you still can't grasp that the chartering organization, as the BSA says, "owns and operates" the unit, and public schools can't do this. You seem to have changed your stance from "public schools don't charter ANY BSA units" to saying they do, but it's legal. Which is your position?

Bob White writes: First, having lived in four councils and been involved in chartering units for nearly thirty years I can say that I have never seen a public school charter a scout unit. This doesn't mean they don't exist, as shown by the BSA's own reports that show thousands of units chartered to public schools (and NOT PTAs/PTOs, as they are also listed). Second, my family discriminates against atheism. We look at the positive and negative elements of belief and disbelief and choose to believe. We are also prejudiced against atheists. I will not try to foster a friendship with anyone that let it be known they lacked the moral integrity to recognize God's hand in their life. I will not do business with them, they will not enter my home. That's about what I figured; a century ago, much the same was said about Jews. ... Tens of thousands of groups of these families have chosen the BSA. THEY CHOSE the BSA, no one forced them to. No one MADE THEM charter a unit. When a charter is FROM A PUBLIC SCHOOL, the atheists in that school system ARE being made to charter a unit. ... Prejudice is pre-judging a person based on a specific trait. You mean like not allowing people of certain religious views into your home? ... The discrimination and prejudiced practiced by the BSA has been reviewed by the US Supreme Court, and they have determined that it is not illegal. Because the BSA is a private organization. A public school is not a private organization and can't "own and operate" a no-atheists-allowed youth group.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

I have and will defend my points, ed, I just won't educate you on the first amendment; I've previously cited many supreme court decisions on-line that go into tedious detail on how the first amendment applies to atheists, and you refuse to educate yourself. Ignorance isn't the same as stupidity, but deliberately keeping yourself ignorant is gross stupidity.

No, ed. And as I've already said, both the principal and superintendent of the school agree that excluding atheists is something their school can't lawfully do, and they know quite a bit more about their legal responsibilities than you do. Your opinion in this is simply worthless.

I fight discrimination against atheists; the Boy Scouts are currently one of the largest offenders, by having government agencies practice such discrimination. I seem to have helped convince some people on this forum that the Boy Scouts should no longer charter units to government agencies. I consider the Boy Scouts to be completely dishonest, because they are chartering discriminatory BSA units to government agencies which they know cannot legally practice religious discrimination. One way to end such practices is to draw attention to it.

Ed, I've told you before, I'm not going to bother trying to give you first amendment lessons. Both the principal and the superintendent of the school agree that their school can't practice religious discrimination, and they agreed that if their Venture Crew can't accept atheists, that's a problem.

That's at http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-507.html It used to have a separate section for government agencies, but I guess that got to be too blatant even for them. Now they list charterers like the US military under "community".

Let's see, "no proof" except the Viking council, the principal, and the school superintendent all saying that the school district charters it. So you're saying they're all lying for some reason?

Public schools are (or at least were) one of the largest single sponsors of BSA units: http://www.scouter.com/archives/Scouts-L/200005/0617.asp

Ah, I see. I'm supposed to get a legal document that the Viking council won't send to me. Riiiight.

Sure; what would you consider sufficient proof?

Bob White writes: "No, it's the truth. By issuing charters to public schools, the BSA is expecting these public schools to exclude atheists. It's illegal for public schools to do this." Excellent job of changing context Merlyn. I'm not changing the context AT ALL. I've BEEN talking about PUBLIC SCHOOLS that charter BSA units. And you ridiculous assertions that NO public school charters ANY BSA unit is absurd. Have you checked EVERY BSA charter? No. I've checked with the principal of the school (who says the charter partner is the school district), the superintendent of the school (who says the charter partner is the school district), and the Viking BSA council (who says the charter partner is the school district). I'M not the one changing the context, YOU are. You're trying to claim that NO public school charters a BSA unit, anywhere. You're wrong.

adrianvs writes: Many public schools at all levels "charter" or otherwise host religous groups. Not in the way schools charter BSA units. The BSA says that the charter partner "owns and operates" the unit, and the SCHOOL is expected to exclude those kids without the "right" religious views. It's a youth group being run by the school. Public schools can't do this. What YOU'RE talking about is ACCESS to school facilities, which is entirely different. In those cases, the school is NOT running the group, and the school is not excluding students for not having acceptable religious views. When a public school charters a BSA unit, the school is excluding students for not having acceptable religious views, and public schools can't do that. A religious group that meets in a public school can run their own basketball team that excludes Jews, but a basketball team RUN BY THE SCHOOL can't exclude Jews.

bob white: The BSA issues Charters to any qualified organization wishing to use the scouting program to benefit eligible members. And public schools, which cannot practice religious discrimination, cannot be qualified organizations, because they can't follow the BSA's religious requirements. So why does the BSA issue charters to public schools? Why do experienced BSA members, who ought to know better, think their Venture Crew can admit atheists? Now some would say that we also promotes illegal discrimination. That is an out and out lie. No, it's the truth. By issuing charters to public schools, the BSA is expecting these public schools to exclude atheists. It's illegal for public schools to do this.

Bob White: One thing that neither your group or mine can control is stupidity. A District Committee member who doesn't know the tenets of the organization he or she is leading is stupid, can we agree on that? Isn't the BSA also acting stupid to issue a Venturing Crew charter to a public school? Shouldn't the BSA stop issuing charters to government agencies? And doesn't the above situation show that the BSA doesn't tell its charter partners that they are expected to exclude atheists? Why are there still thousands of BSA charters to government agencies, anyway? The BSA is not a religion, it has never claimed to be, nor ever tried to have any of the features or elements of a religion. So how do you seek to control it constitutionally as you would a religion? The scouts were not given those price breaks because they were a religion or because they were religious. But they lost them because they insisted on discriminating on the basis of religion. In the Berkeley berth situation, the Sea Scouts were unable to sign the nondiscrimination agreement. Religious organizations that keep to Berkeley's nondiscrimination requirements are still elligible. The San Diego case has only gone through summary judgement, where the judge found that the BSA was a religious organization, which meant that San Diego couldn't bypass their normal bidding process (which gives all groups a chance to bid on the property). A city can sell land to a church, but it CAN'T set up a special sale for the mayor's favorite church; in a similar vein, the city can rent property to the BSA, but it can't set up a special deal. It was done because of the service being given to the local youth was seen as a good thing and the town chose to lend support. If they choose not to now, thats fine, but lets do it for the right reason. If religion was not a factor in getting the lease then it should not be a factor in ending it. Sorry, that doesn't make any sense; the BSA's religious discrimination is a direct issue. The BSA got the low cost lease for being a non-profit organization. The only fair thing to do would be for the city to take back any special services given to any non-profit organization. Now you're just sounding like sour grapes. If the BSA can't get freebies, NOBODY can. Suppose the city of San Diego decided to only give special services to non-profit organizations that don't discriminate on the basis of religion? That's quite legal, as the city has a vested interest in not furthering religious discrimination.

Bob White writes: Charter Organizations know also. No, they don't. There's a public school here in MN that charters a Venture Crew, and the principal (who is in the BSA, and was the local District Chair) insists that atheists can join his Venture Crew, even though National BSA says they can't (though it's very difficult getting a straight answer from the BSA). The principal and superintendent know quite well that they can't discriminate on the basis of religion, and both of them are under the misapprehension that atheists can join the Venture Crew chartered by the school. And San Diego isn't refusing the Boy Scouts use of public property, what's at dispute is a special deal not available to the public. The Boy Scouts have the same access to public facilities as anyone else. This is what the Berkeley lawsuit over a free Sea Scout berth found; the Boy Scouts lost free berthing, but they can rent berths like anyone else. They just can't get them for free the way nondiscriminatory organizations can.

To quote The Princess Bride, "Learn to live with disappointment."

Ed, you don't understand current constitutional law. I am not going to educate you. I will allow you to continue to be unpleasantly surprised by court decisions concerning government BSA charters. Captainron, this is a public forum to discuss such issues; you've got to expect some people to have opposing views. Adrianvs, I'm discussing government support of the BSA, not "bad" behavior. The BSA practices religious discrimination, which means the government has to treat them just as it would treat any other private organization that practices religious discrimination, such as a youth group that admits everyone except Jews. That means no charters from public schools, no charters from the military, no HUD grants to get members, no schoolteachers soliciting their students to join, no rental of public property for $1/year, etc.

Sorry, FOG, I was a cub scout. Of course, I wouldn't join such a bigoted group nowadays.

FOG, when I joined the cub scouts, I didn't pledge a duty to god; I omitted it, and nobody cared. Like I said, this was back when the BSA didn't kick out atheists. There are still packs & troops that allow atheists to join and to omit god if they want to, from what I hear. Hey ed, there's nothing dishonest about an atheist omitting god when he makes a promise. When I joined (at about 10) the only other oaths I knew about at the time were oaths in court to testify, and the president's oath of office, and I knew that in both of those cases, "god" could be omitted, so I assumed the same for the scout oath. Since nobody cared when I omitted "god" and the manual didn't explicitly say that atheists couldn't join, just how should I have known? And what if the pack had been chartered by my public school, as thousands of cub scout packs still are? Public schools can't exclude atheists from youth groups that they "own and operate".

Capt. Ron, if you want to see some of what I do for fun, check out http://www.firesigntheatre.com , the Firesign Theatre's website. They're a rather well-known comedy troupe, and I do their website, and I've even written for them. I was in the cub scouts years ago, and my mom was a den mother, and we were both atheists. This was in the 1960s, before the BSA started throwing out atheists. However, when the BSA (or any other group) discriminates against atheists, no branch of the US government can aid them by chartering units, or by giving them government grants to aid these units, or by giving them special deals on government property. The BSA has to be treated just the same as any other group that discriminates on the basis of religion, instead of all the special favors it gets now.

Adrianvs writes: I stated that it was NOT any philosophical attitude (like the BSA stance) that induced the men to murder. It was primarily a physical "gut-reaction" of disgust. And, as I stated, the BSA actively encourages such a reaction, and says in court that gays aren't "morally clean." If someone belonged to an organization that said, say, that Jews couldn't be the best kinds of citizens, or that Jews weren't "morally clean," and members of that organization routinely express their disgust for Jews, and a member of that organization kills someone for being Jewish, I'd condemn both the murderer and the organization for encouraging such attitudes. You would apparently hold such an organization totally blameless.

Adrianvs writes: Matthew Shepard's murderers didn't kill him because his views conflicted with their philosophy or theology. They killed him because of rage and hatred from being disgusted by him. And the BSA encourages that attitude; they even stated in court that gays were not "morally clean". Congratulations to the BSA on helping form the attitudes of Russell Henderson. And yes, Trail Pounder, I called you a bigot for posting that joke, just as if you had posted a Jew-baiting joke.

SR540beaver, you need to read the papers more. Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence post and killed by two men, one whom (Russell Henderson) was an Eagle Scout. Maybe if members of the Boy Scouts didn't post infantile fantasies about assaulting people when court decisions don't go their way, there would be fewer Eagle Scouts who are murderers, and more Eagle Scouts who would object to committing crimes as a way of settling disputes. But not here, apparently.

Of course, if this were a story by a Boy Scout slamming gays instead of atheists, it's de rigeur to have them tied to a fence first. Glad you bigots are finally showing your true colors.