Merlyn_LeRoy

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes, you really are an idiot, Ed.

One is a Learning for Life program, by the way; just no money for their discriminatory program: http://www.newsgleaner.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12250679&BRD=2340&PAG=461&dept_id=488595&rfi=6 The United Way of Southeastern Pennsylvania has decided to distribute funds held in escrow for the local Boy Scouts organization to two other greater Philadelphia organizations that benefit youth. The United Way took this action because the Cradle of Liberty Council has remained steadfast in support of the national Boy Scout policy regarding the appointment of homosexuals to leadership positions. ...

Ed Mori writes: Since you seem to think ALL the decisions regarding the separation of church & state are correct... Hey Ed, I've told you before that you simply can't learn anything, so it's kind of pointless to argue with you. For one thing, I've never said I agree with all church & state decisions, so your question is false to begin with. But you knew that. I have said I agree with Abington v. Schempp and Engel v. Vitale; if you disagree, and think that public schools ought to have school bureaucrats write prayers and decide what religious texts should be promoted to everyone's children in public schools, go ahead and say why. As for your copy & pasted screed, see http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/religious-depictions.htm(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

Here are two of the best known school church & state decisions from the 1960s; both laws deserved to be struck down. Engel v. Vitale (1962) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=370&page=424 ... The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and [370 U.S. 421, 423] legislative powers over the State's public school system. 1 These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools," saying: "We believe that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program." ... Abington v. Schempp (1963) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=374&invol=203 ... The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by law, 24 Pa. Stat. 15-1516, as amended, Pub. Law 1928 (Supp. 1960) Dec. 17, 1959, requires that "At least ten verses from the Holy Bible shall be read, without comment, at the opening of each public school on each school day. Any child shall be excused from such Bible reading, or attending such Bible reading, upon the written request of his parent or guardian." ... Those in favor of repealing Engel are in favor of public school bureaucrats writing prayers for other people's children; those in favor of repealing Abington are in favor of public school bureaucrats deciding what religious texts are read out to other people's children each schoolday. I don't think public school bureaucrats should be making such decisions.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

Rooster7 writes: I didnt think that I had twisted your words. If you werent attempting to imply that all religions were false by referencing those bizarre creatures and teachings then what were you trying to say? WHICH bizarre creatures and teachings? That a god exists? That demons exist? That prayer heals illness? That there's a messiah and a holy ghost? Do you think these are bizarre creatures and teachings? Funny, I would have thought most of that was compatible with your religion. Or is it just the beliefs of OTHER religions that you find bizarre? Djinn? They're in Islam. Faeries? In Pagan religions. And so on. So which "bizarre beliefs" should I subscribe to? Gods and demons? Djinn and faeries? I don't see any reasonable basis to believe in any of these. ------ boleta writes: Why are you picking on BSA. I assume that historically, public schools chartered Scout units. And the BSA has gone to court repeatedly for their right to kick out atheists; since public schools can't practice such religious discrimination, all public school charters need to be removed. BSA took its charters where it could and still does. As each Public School system confronts this issue, they will make their choices, right or wrong. No, ALL public schools will be required to drop BSA charters, because they can't practice religious discrimination. It's a constitutional issue. Schools can't "choose" to violate the constitution. I was offended at a Public School Sports Banquet where the athletic director started the meeting with a prayer. A Christian prayer. Absolutely against all separation of church and state rules for a public school (as dictated by the Supreme Court). Did I make a fuss? No. Is separation of church and state important? Yes. Is it worth it to outrage the entire assembly when the people that conduct these prayers need them but I don't? NO. Ah, so first amendment rights shouldn't be defended if they lead to some hurt feelings? Sorry, that's a terrible standard to use. The Board Room of our City Hospital had an American Flag and a Christian Flag in it. The President of the Medical Staff was Jewish and the Chairman of the Department of Surgery was Muslim. No one but I noticed the Christian Flag in the corner of the room (donated by a local YMCA and present for many years). It was removed when I suggested it was inappropriate at a City Hospital to have a sectarian flag. Why did you speak up in this case but not the other? Is it worth upsetting the YMCA? I can still do my duty to God, belong to BSA, respect the beliefs of the True Believers and you, and still ask for separation of church and state. It is in my and your best interest that the government stay out of ALL of our religious lives. Which is why public schools run by the government stay OUT of owning and operating "no atheists" youth groups, right? I look forward to seeing how the ESA (Ethical Students of America unite!) turns out. Lying does not become you. And, by the way, do you think Learning for Life can teach atheist students ethics (as L4L claims to do) while being a wholly-owned subsidiary of an organization that excludes atheists and which dishonestly charters "no atheist" youth groups to public schools? Should L4L teach that as "ethical"?

boleta writes: As the school systems come to their senses and the Scouts find other places to be chartered, society will have changed for the "better". Why isn't the BSA honest enough to NOT charter BSA units to government agencies now?

boleta writes: Why do you care if kids that want to be members of BSA meet at a school? Boleta, I'm talking about the school CHARTERING scout units. The school, in the words of the BSA website, owns and operates the scout unit. Now, think about that. If a public school can own and operate a youth group that excludes atheists, they can own and operate a youth group that excludes Jews. Or Catholics. Or Muslims. Do you think it would be legal for a public school to "own and operate" a youth group that excludes anyone who's Jewish? Or anyone who isn't a Christian? Or anyone who believes in more than one god? Or anyone who doesn't believe in at least one god? You're asking why I would want to revoke a school's BSA charter - I'm only hurting the kids. What about the atheist kids? If a public school was running a group that didn't allow Jewish kids to join, don't you think some people would complain? Would you berate those people who are trying to stop it as just hurting the (non-Jewish) kids?

Boleta, how is it "respecting" the beliefs of atheists when the BSA charters public schools to run Scout units that exclude atheists?

Boleta, you don't seem to understand where I'm coming from; I'm working on removing all government charters from BSA units, since the government can't practice religious discrimination (public schools can't charter cub scout packs, military units can't charter boy scout troops, etc). Don't worry, I'm firmly convinced that the BSA promotes bigotry against atheists and is not worth joining - I'm trying to get the BSA to stop acting dishonestly by issuing charters to government agencies.

Rooster7 writes: So, the existence of false beliefs scientifically proves that God does not exist. That doesn't resemble anything I've said; I asked you which superstitious beliefs should I believe in? You can't seem to follow simple English, as you twist it around to mean something I haven't said. So answer - which superstitious beliefs? Gods? Demons? Djinn? Leprechauns? Ghosts? And, more importantly, if I should believe some and not others, which beliefs and why just those? And should I listen to religious leaders who tell me to pray instead of taking my medication? To kill infidels? To worship them as the new messiah? If I should believe some things that religious leaders say and not others, which ones and why? You seem to be promoting mindless gullibility; if you can't tell me why I should believe your religious views and not the snake-handler down the street, what use is your advice?

Bob, you ARE bigoted towards atheists, you just can't see it yourself. And you're off-topic.

Hey Rooster7, how much nonsense should I believe? Gods, angels, djinns, faeries? Leprechauns, trolls, ghosts, demons? Should I just believe everything that anyone believes? Should I believe all of these things, or just some of them? Do you believe in all of them? Should I believe the religious leaders of the Johane Church of God in Botswana, and refuse to immunize my children against polio, and refuse all forms of medicine? http://www.mmegi.bw/2004/June/Tuesday29/881507161829.html Should I believe that Rev. Moon is the new messiah? http://www.thehill.com/news/062204/moon.aspx How many of my children should die before I should give up praying to supernatural beings to cure them and instead take my surviving children to, oh, DOCTORS? http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical2.htm Sorry, your plea that I ought to be more gullible and believe supernatural nonsense is too dangerous from my point of view.

Bob White writes: It does not require that I be tolerant of people who have no belief in God And you certainly live down to that expectation. And you still wonder why I object to government charters to a group that promotes such bigotry?

Hey Bob, I said "intolerance by scouts", not intolerance by the BSA. Both you and Rooster7 are scouts, and both of you have displayed intolerance of both atheists and others. Now you're just digging yourselves in deeper. And by the way, aren't you being off-topic? Hunt wanted to know why the BSA thinks that following a false religion is better than following no religion.

And use the right alphabet: "Pontivs Pilate" As an atheist, I think this thread is another good example of religious intolerance by scouts.

Hey Jason, what do you think of the Pledge of Allegiance? It was written by a socialist, you know.

Yes Jason, the city of Chicago can't own & operate youth groups that exclude people based on their religious beliefs or sexual orientation. It's unconstitutional. Chicago likewise can't own & operate a youth group that excludes Christians, or Jews, or all theists, either, because Chicago has to be neutral when it comes to religion. Now, why do you malign the ACLU when you admittedly aren't very familiar with them? Are you aware of their defense of Olive North? Of their defense of religious symbols in cemeteries? Of their defense of crosses erected by private organizations on public forums? The ACLU goes after religious symbols put up by government agencies, or when the government allows some religious symbols but not others. Why do you claim to have been a Buddhist when you can't even SPELL THE WORD ("buhhdist" & "Buhhda", so it wasn't a typo, you really don't know how to spell the name of one of the world's major religions, which you claim to have followed to in college). Packsaddle even spelled it correctly for you, and you copied & pasted it, but somehow you forgot how to spell it in the very next paragraph - a religion you supposedly belonged to at one time.

Bob White writes: Too much of this thread is based on idividuals with strong opinions but few facts, who are guessing at what the history of the program was without any experience or bothering to research it. Hmm, kind of reminds me of the time you said: The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so. When the city of Chicago WAS the charter partner for 28 BSA units, and agreed to terminate all of them as part of an out-of-court settlement with the ACLU in 1998. One week later, the BSA announced that Explorers was being moved into Learning for Life. http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/poloncarz-top.html

Bob White writes: When the police and fire departments wanted to encourage young people to follow in their missions and they voluntarily chose to adopt the Scouting program as their youth outreach program, I think they did it with eyes wide open and an understanding of the values of the scouting program, especially since many had been scouts themselves. Only the few that decided to break the law and practice illegal religious discrimination; the rest would insist that they did not discriminate, even though the BSA would require that they do, just as the principal of Cambridge-Isanti High School insisted that his school's Venturing program admitted atheists, even though he himself was the chair of the Three Rivers District of the Viking Council and should have known better. When he found out that his Venturing Crew couldn't admit atheists or gays, they had no choice but to drop the program. And, by the way, I think you wear your religion on your sleeve because you find atheists threatening; you don't want to be reminded that your religion with talking animals and magic sticks is just as ridiculous as the myths surrounding Zeus or Odin.

Hey Bob, when the BSA expected government agencies like police and fire departments to exclude atheists from their Explorer Posts, was that "good"? Was it honest? You don't seem to recognize the dishonesty of the BSA.

Bob doesn't have to follow his own rules. Of course, nobody else has to, either. Hey Bob, when Explorer Posts were part of the BSA pre-1998, was it "good" for fire department Explorer Posts to illegally exclude atheists? Remember, the Boy Scouts didn't own the Posts, the charter partners did, and the BSA expected fire departments to practice religious discrimination, even though they're a goverment agency. So Bob, do you think fire departments should exclude atheists from their Explorer programs?

Ah, so discrimination against atheists is good, eh? Just like discrimination against Jews used to be.

Here are some: http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html (second article) This has the same information; search for "scouts" http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/black_1.htm ... In 1974 the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America do not discriminate because of religion or race, but Mormon-sponsored troops did have a policy of discrimination. On July 18, 1974, the Salt Lake Tribune reported: "A 12-year-old boy scout has been denied a senior patrol leadership in his troop because he is black, Don L. Cope, black ombudsman for the state, said Wednesday.... "The ombudsman said Mormon 'troop policy is that in order for a scout to become a patrol leader, he must be a deacon's quorum president in the LDS Church. Since the boy cannot hold the priesthood, he cannot become a patrol leader.'" The Mormon leaders apparently realized that they could never prevail in this matter and a compromise was worked out: "Shortly before Boy Scout officials were to appear in Federal Court Friday morning on charges of discrimination, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a policy change which will allow black youths to be senior patrol leaders, a position formerly reserved for white LDS youths in troops sponsored by the church.... "An LDS Church spokesman said Friday under the 'guidelines set forth in the statement, a young man other than president of the deacons quorum could (now) become the senior patrol leader if he is better qualified.'" (Salt Lake Tribune, August 3, 1974) Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball "had been subpoenaed to testify" in the suit (Ibid., Oct. 23), but on Nov. 7, 1974 the Tribune reported:"A suit claiming discrimination against blacks by the Boy Scouts of America was dismissed Wednesday in federal court...all parties to the suit..signed an agreement stating the alleged discrimination 'has been discontinued.'"

I wrote: the declaration of religious principle says that "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God". FOG writes: Sorry Cartoon kid, that statement is speaking of members of BSA. Since atheists can't be members of BSA, that statement doesn't apply to you. FOG, since atheists can't be members, that statement can't apply to ANYBODY, right? It's like a whites-only club saying only members who are white can be the best kinds of citizens. But you're parsing it wrong, because the way you interpret it, it can't apply to anyone, ever, which makes it a meaningless statement. The only way to parse it that makes sense is as a deliberate slam against atheists in general as being incapable of being the best kinds of citizens.

Sure it does, Fathead Old Guy; the declaration of religious principle says that "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God". That means atheists can't be the best kinds of citizens; that's vilification.