Merlyn_LeRoy

Looks like losing public schools hurt as much as I predicted it would; a loss of over 400,000 in one year: http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-membership.html cubscouts boyscouts venturing all scouting L4L total 2004 1,878,752 988,995 280,584 3,145,331 1,680,522 4,825,853 2005 1,640,685 894,333 238,469 2,773,487 1,628,169 4,401,656 -238,067 -94,662 -42,115 -371,844 -52,353 -424,197 -12.67% -9.57% -15.01% -11.82% -3.12% -8.79% The actual losses will probably be higher, as it appears a number of BSA units didn't recharter away from public schools until at (or after) the end of 2005, and so would still be counted under 2005, even if they ceased to exist soon after that. Also, it seems some STILL haven't rechartered, so they'll get a rude awakening when the BSA is forced to cut them off. The BSA has lost nearly 1/4 of their cub scout membership since the late 1990s, when the right-wingers in charge made it clear to the public that the BSA was a discriminatory organization.

Bobanon asks: I know the BSA does not allow athiest, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters. From the BSA's official legal website: http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm ... Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership? A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization. ... Can a perons be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god. I would say the official BSA policy right now is "may be a higher power" is not good enough. You have to definitely believe in one or more gods, or they kick you out. Of course, local enforcement of this rule varies considerably.

OGE, here's a parody written by someone a few years ago (not by me). Note that all the "fake" reasons have real-world examples, all against atheists, which is why I hardly have any sympathy for your position that Christians are being persecuted in the US. http://laterralane.com/siems/antichristianbias.htm The anti-Christian bias in our society has reached absurd proportions. Consider: 1. During the 1988 election campaign, George Bush said that Christians should not be considered patriots or real American citizens. 2. Bill Clinton steadfastly refused to give any speeches at local churches. 3. Both major political parties are dominated by anti-Christians. The Republican party, for example, gave us such hard-core atheists as Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, Phyllis Schlafly and Ronald Reagan. And the Democrats have given us such personalities as the Rev. Martin Luther King and the Rev. Jesse Jackson-- both noted for their vicious attacks on all forms of Christianity. 4. Let's talk about the media. On Sunday mornings, nearly all major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is nearly impossible to find religious programming during that time period. Further, Madalyn Murray O'Hair has her own cable TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to obtain one for himself. 5. Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted to atheism. There are no equivalent sections for religious news. 6. Anti-Christian shows such as the American Atheist Forum are broadcast by major national networks. Meanwhile, Billy Graham is only able to get on the air through public access TV, which is watched by few people. 7. On news programs and "reality" TV shows such as Rescue 911, nobody is ever shown giving thanks to God after surviving a disaster. 8. It is almost impossible to find a shopping mall with a Christian Armory book store, while Atheist Book Centers are featured prominently on every corner. 9. While atheists couples who marry rarely have any difficulty finding a place to do so, it is nearly impossible for Christian couples to find a church where they can marry. 10. For that matter, churches themselves are extremely rare, while atheist meeting centers can be found every few blocks. 11. Jurors must take an oath upon a copy of the Skeptical Inquirer before they can serve. There have even been court cases thrown out because one of the jury members was a Christian who insisted on swearing on a Bible. 12. Christians often find it nearly impossible to get time off work for religious holidays such as Christmas. 13. Even our language reflects the radical anti-Christian bias that pervades our society. For example, when somebody sneezes, most people say "Darwin bless you". Similarly, "Voltaire dammit!" is a common cussword. 14. All of our money has the atheistic slogan "We do not trust in God" printed on it. 15. In school, our children are made to recite the pledge, "One nation, anti-God, indivisible...." 16. One cannot rent a hotel room without finding a copy of Nietzsche's The Anti-Christ in the room. 17. Organizations such as the Boy Scouts deny membership to Christians. 18. In the military, it is nearly impossible to obtain Conscientious Objector status for religious reasons, even though those with philosophical reasons can obtain C.O. status relatively easily. 19. Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes. 20. You can't drive anywhere without seeing a Darwin fish or a "Jesus Was A Fraud" bumper sticker stuck to a car. 21. Georgia recently passed a new law requiring schools to have a "moment of noise" during which children are encouraged to degrade Christianity. 22. College campuses usually have dozens of atheist organizations, but few if any for Christians. 23. Many Christians are afraid to admit their Christianity to their parents and friends, for fear their kin will consider them immoral Christian scum and want nothing to do with them. 24. At presidential inauguration ceremonies, Madalyn Murray-O'Hair (that well-known friend of several presidents) gives a short pro-atheism speech. 25. For decades, high school and college commencement ceremonies have included brief speeches at the beginning and end of the ceremony in which atheism is praised and Christians deemed irrational. Christians who object to the practice, or who ask for an opening prayer instead, are regarded as cranks at best and subversives at worst. 26. "There are no Christians in foxholes" is a popular slogan in our society. 27. Communities set up atheist brainwashing facilities, and apply social pressure to citizens to report to these facilities every Sunday morning. Furthermore, attendees are expected to contribute money to support these facilities, and to build others through "outreach" programs. 28. At baseball games, you can often spot people carrying signs that read "Origin Of Species, page 34". 29. Businesses often refuse to admit that they are Christian owned and operated, for fear of being boycotted by their atheist customers. Meanwhile, atheist-owned businesses often feature Darwin-fish logos in their ads. 30. Atheists have often invented "deathbed deconversion" stories about famous Christians, claiming they became atheists just before they died. 31. Insurance companies refer to natural disasters as "Acts of Darwin". 32. Forms for job applications, government aid and so forth often ask what type of atheist you are, with checkboxes for "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist" and so forth. If you are a Christian, the only thing you can do is check the "other" box-- if one is provided. 33. Sports teams often read from the Humanist Manifesto prior to the game, in the hopes that doing so will increase their chances of winning. 34. Atheists constantly threaten television and movies producers with boycotts whenever they portray Christianity in a positive light. 35. Well-known atheists like Michael Martin and Quentin Smith have set up ministries to witness to Christians, but it is virtually impossible to find Christians who specialize in debating atheists. 36. The word "Christian" is recognized as a term which represents the worst of human attributes: cynicism, pessimism, selfishness, and moral turpitude. The word "Atheist," on the other hand, is used to signify all that is virtuous, as in, "That's mighty Atheist of you!" 37. On sitcoms and movies of the week, the parents make references to how their lack of faith in God helps them get through life's troubles. Meanwhile, Christians are portrayed as pathetic folks who end up converting to atheism. 38. Atheists who convert to christianity are often told by their parents "It's just a rebellious phase. Once you move through this stage of life you'll realize that you never really believed in God." Similarly, people who are raised as Christians are condesended to, and told that if they would give atheism a chance, it would fill the empty hole that Chistianity must be leaving in their lives. 39. Most people assume everyone else is an Atheist and are unbelievers as they are. It makes for uncomfortable social situations for Christians and other religious types. 40. Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the general population and in powerful legislative positions, when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this is an anti-Atheistic country. 41. Atheists constantly cite, out of context, books of philosophy by noted Atheists to prove that Christians live irrational lives. 42. Atheists do everything possible to get laws passed that will prevent irrational Christians from making their own choices in matters of sex, procreation, life-styles, family units, etc. 43. In small towns and communities all over the U.S. Atheist horns awake Christians at midnight on Saturdays preventing them from getting a good night's sleep before their Sabbath. Fortunately for much of the population, few church bells wake Atheists who want to sleep in on Sundays. 44. Atheist Army (and other Freethought) soup kitchens force homeless Christians to listen to Atheist propaganda before serving them a meal. 45. Hundreds of self-help groups replace codependence with the 12 Steps of A.B.A. (Atheist Brainwashing Anonymous), convincing people they don't have the power to help themselves but must rely on the power of Darwin to overcome addiction. 46. U.S. Atheist organizations send missionaries to underdeveloped countries to convince people to renounce long-held local religious beliefs and become Atheists. 47. All prisons have a resident atheist philosopher, and inmates are encouraged to participate in weekly philophical dicussions on Bible Contradictions. This is often reported to parole board, who consider it a good indication of contritenes on the prisoner's part. 48. A political candidate who declares himself a Christian will have far less chance of winning an election than one who flaunts his atheism. 49. Whenever an atheist commits a crime, invariably people will argue that this is not a sign that teaching atheism might not guarantee a better society, because anyone who would act that way "isn't a true atheist." 50. One often sees bumper stickers like, "Thomas Paine said it, I believe it, that settles it," but seldom sees Christian bumper stickers. From Scientific Paganism list...think about it Christians...if this list were real how would you feel?

SoDakScouter writes: Simple, the people that have no problems attacking Scouting don't want to offend Islamic leaders, countries and people. But it is okay to tell a 13 year old that the organization that he likes and enjoys and is learning important leadership skills, is a "bad" organization because it requires you to profess a belief in God. That is what really burns me. No, it's a bad organization because they tell that same 13-year-old's friend that he can't join because he has the "wrong" religious views. About that same time, I saw a piece on the news that it was decided that showing the Twin Towers falling caused a lot of anger and bad feelings toward Muslims in general, and those that were responsible for the attack. Some people can't tell the difference between the two. You can't tell the difference between people who are against the BSA's discriminatory policies, and people who don't want to offend Islamic leaders, countries and people.

Other news stories on this have said that at least someone at the national BSA had been informed of Stowell, though it doesn't give a name of who was contacted: http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/part2.php Chance 1: Mother and bishop, 1988 Paid professionals at the Grand Teton Council hired a child molester to work at Camp Little Lemhi even though they, the national Boy Scout office and troop sponsors in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were warned about Brad Stowell. Court records, which the Boy Scouts' lawyers fought to hide from public view, show the warnings might have been sufficient to disqualify Stowell from Scouting six years before he was finally arrested. ... Chance 2: Boy Scouts headquarters, 1991 In May 1991, a Blackfoot man named Richard Scarborough wrote to the national Boy Scout office in Irving, Texas, complaining that his reports about a child molester named Brad Stowell were being ignored by eastern Idaho Scout leaders and the troop's sponsors in the LDS church. Called as a witness in a victim's lawsuit against the Scouts, Scarborough said he knew about Stowell because a church bishop had told him Stowell abused a neighbor. The bishop was inquiring about the safety of Scarborough's sons, who were in Scouts with Stowell. Court files recently unsealed do not make it clear what the national staff of the Boy Scouts did about Scarborough's report, and Post Register efforts to further interview Scarborough have been unsuccessful. But the Scouts maintain an "Ineligible Volunteer" file that it uses to weed out boys and adults who don't fit the organization's high moral standards. ... Eastern Idahoans knew in 1997 that Brad Stowell had been arrested at Camp Little Lemhi and had pleaded guilty to molesting Boy Scouts there. What they don't know is what professional Scout leaders knew in the years leading up to that verdict and to the Boy Scouts' decision to pay two victims who sued for negligence. That's because two of Idaho's most powerful law firms succeeded in having the files sealed. The negligence lawsuits didn't appear in the courthouse public access computer until the Post Register noted in print that the ISTARS system was reporting the cases didn't exist, a situation legal experts have called highly unusual. Court officials say one case disappeared from public view because of a computer glitch that has since been fixed. That case, including Stowell's admission that he molested 24 children, has since been unsealed. The Boy Scouts are still fighting to keep the other case closed to "protect the names of the innocent victims," said Kim Hansen, Grand Teton Council executive director. But the Post Register, by longstanding policy, does not print the names of the sex-crime victims without their consent. Nor do any other reputable media outlets. Judge W.H. Woodland, who signed the secret order that removed all references to that second case from the courthouse's public record, announced Thursday that he will soon rule on the Post Register's request to open the case. This has a number of articles on it: http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/index.php This has a chronology of Stowell and others: http://www.mormon-news.com/article.asp?ID=753

Lisabob writes: Now - if the BSA started covering up for leaders who molest children, then yes of course I (and most other sane people, I hope) would certainly have a problem with that. According to the current Idaho lawsuit against the Grand Teton Council and the national BSA, that's exactly what happened just a few years ago: http://www.journalnet.com/articles/2006/01/22/news/local/news01.txt

LongHaul writes: The girls part is already addressed in the Venturing and Explorer programs but what about the gay scouts. That's presumably already addressed in the Explorer program, since it's been open to gays since 1998. Don't know if they do much camping though. You could also ask how members of other countries that admit gays handle the situation, for example in uk.rec.scouting. OGE writes: Now, about the other court cases, those cases seem to be about the BSA and use of facilities, not a person wanting to be a member of the BSA. IN the San Diego case regarding Balboa park its the use of the facilities that are the issue, I dont know of anyone in San Diego who is gay or atheist who is suing to be a member of the BSA. Maybe Merlyn could help me here. The issues aren't over "use of facilities"; the BSA ought to get the same access as any other discriminatory religious organization. The San Diego case is about whether the city can award a lease to the BSA (without any competitive bidding) for public parkland well below market rates. So far, the answer has been 'no'. As far as I know, there are no lawsuits from gays or atheists suing to be members; all the lawsuits are due to the BSA's relatively new status as a private, discriminatory religious club.

eamonn writes: Here is where I'm a little confused. How is this policy different than the BSA policy? I understand that the BSA uses the different language, but it seems to me to amount to the same thing. I would think if organizations like the ACLU wanted to fight what they see as the good fight, their time would be better spent tackling the Pentagons policy on gays rather then the BSA. Am I missing something? If so what? If you're referring to the ACLU cases against military chartering of BSA units and/or military support of the jamboree, both of those were over religious discrimination, not sexual orientation (though other parts of the Winkler suit also included sexual orientation when dealing with e.g. Chicago public schools). The ACLU does fight the military over gay rights, but these cases were about religious rights.

Ed writes: Merlyn, Not a problem! As long as every faith has the same opportunity. Freedom of religion! But they don't, Ed. Typically, city officials put up some display that includes their religion - they don't create a public forum open to the public. Judge Moore refused other groups that wanted to put up displays in the Alabama supreme court. Do you agree that city councils shouldn't put up a religious display they agree with and refuse permission for a similar display that they disagree with?

BrentAllen writes: The wording is a little different and the order changed, but the 10 commandments are basically the same. If there isn't some kind of numbering, how did they all arrive at "10"? Because they all wanted to arrive at 10. If you want a Spinal Tap version that goes up to 11, just combine features of the different versions. And they ARE different. The Catholic version (based on Deuteronomy) doesn't have a prohibition against graven images, for example. I'm curious - as an atheist, what do you care what the 10 commandments say? It's all just mythology, right? Yes, but Ed seems to be under the delusion that the commandments are listed in the supreme court building. They aren't. Hey Ed, would you object to a city council displaying some rules from the koran, based on the argument that the supreme court building depicts a koran, so that makes it ok?

scoutingagain writes: My suggestion would be to include in the Charter agreement, a requirement that COs make up any budgetary shortfall of a council. You could bet there would be alot more interest in the management of a council by the COs if that were the case. I would bet that the number of COs would soon become zero. Who would sponsor a cub scout pack under those circumstances?

BrentAllen writes: Now maybe you count all the items in the dialogue and come up with 10. If so, please list and number them. You first; Jews, Catholics and Protestants all have different lists of what the 10 commandments are. After all, neither list is numbered or anything like that. Ed writes: Now the Ten Commandments are depicted on one of the friezes in the SCOTUS building. Again, Ed, you seem to know what rules those blank tablets have, but you offer no reason for it. They are being held by Moses. Why, Merlyn, have you not demanded that not be removed? Because it's actually part of group of various lawgivers through history, unlike most of the 10 commandments displays erected by people trying to push their particular religious views. When was the last time you heard of a city council putting up a display of the code of Hammurabi? Mohammad is also depicted holding the koran, but you only hear the religious right talking about the 10 commandments being in the supreme court (even though they're blank).

Ed, you still haven't said why you "know" that the tablets Moses is holding are those particular ones; exodus 34 describes Moses as making a new set of tablets, so it's just as reasonable to assume the tablets he's holding are THESE tablets. I mean, he broke the first ones, right?

Not a very convincing cop-out, Ed; Moses with tablets called "commandments" as dictate by god, but you don't have time to explain how they aren't commandments. Besides, it's clearly another set of tablets as brought by Moses, so how do you know it's not THESE tablets Moses is holding on the supreme court building? You keep saying that the ten commandments are on the supreme court building, but how do you know it isn't this set that has cooking instructions?

Well Ed, you still aren't reading exodus 34. It calls them commandments, so why aren't you obeying them? I'll boldface some pertinent parts: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus34.htm Exodus Chapter 34 1 The LORD said to Moses, "Cut two stone tablets like the former, that I may write on them the commandments which were on the former tablets that you broke. 2 Get ready for tomorrow morning, when you are to go up Mount Sinai and there present yourself to me on the top of the mountain. 3 No one shall come up with you, and no one is even to be seen on any part of the mountain; even the flocks and the herds are not to go grazing toward this mountain." 4 Moses then cut two stone tablets like the former, and early the next morning he went up Mount Sinai as the LORD had commanded him, taking along the two stone tablets. 5 Having come down in a cloud, the LORD stood with him there and proclaimed his name, "LORD." 6 Thus the LORD passed before him and cried out, "The LORD, the LORD, a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in kindness and fidelity, 7 continuing his kindness for a thousand generations, and forgiving wickedness and crime and sin; yet not declaring the guilty guiltless, but punishing children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation for their fathers' wickedness!" 8 Moses at once bowed down to the ground in worship. 9 Then he said, "If I find favor with you, O Lord, do come along in our company. This is indeed a stiff-necked people; yet pardon our wickedness and sins, and receive us as your own." 10 "Here, then," said the LORD, "is the covenant I will make. Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. 11 But you, on your part, must keep the commandments I am giving you today. "I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Take care, therefore, not to make a covenant with these inhabitants of the land that you are to enter; else they will become a snare among you. 13 1 Tear down their altars; smash their sacred pillars, and cut down their sacred poles. 14 2 You shall not worship any other god, for the LORD is 'the Jealous One'; a jealous God is he. 15 Do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of that land; else, when they render their wanton worship to their gods and sacrifice to them, one of them may invite you and you may partake of his sacrifice. 16 Neither shall you take their daughters as wives for your sons; otherwise, when their daughters render their wanton worship to their gods, they will make your sons do the same. 17 "You shall not make for yourselves molten gods. 18 "You shall keep the feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days at the prescribed time in the month of Abib you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you; for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt. 19 "To me belongs every first-born male that opens the womb among all your livestock, whether in the herd or in the flock. 20 The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with one of the flock; if you do not redeem it, you must break its neck. The first-born among your sons you shall redeem. "No one shall appear before me empty-handed. 21 "For six days you may work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; on that day you must rest even during the seasons of plowing and harvesting. 22 3 "You shall keep the feast of Weeks with the first of the wheat harvest; likewise, the feast at the fruit harvest at the close of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the LORD God of Israel. 24 Since I will drive out the nations before you to give you a large territory, there will be no one to covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD, your God. 25 "You shall not offer me the blood of sacrifice with leavened bread, nor shall the sacrifice of the Passover feast be kept overnight for the next day. 26 "The choicest first fruits of your soil you shall bring to the house of the LORD, your God. "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk." 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with them I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 So Moses stayed there with the LORD for forty days and forty nights, without eating any food or drinking any water, and he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. 29 As Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands, he did not know that the skin of his face had become radiant while he conversed with the LORD. 30 When Aaron, then, and the other Israelites saw Moses and noticed how radiant the skin of his face had become, they were afraid to come near him. 31 Only after Moses called to them did Aaron and all the rulers of the community come back to him. Moses then spoke to them. 32 Later on, all the Israelites came up to him, and he enjoined on them all that the LORD had told him on Mount Sinai. 33 4 When he finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face. 34 Whenever Moses entered the presence of the LORD to converse with him, he removed the veil until he came out again. On coming out, he would tell the Israelites all that had been commanded. 35 Then the Israelites would see that the skin of Moses' face was radiant; so he would again put the veil over his face until he went in to converse with the LORD.

Hey, I'M supposed to make the Firesign Theatre references...

Well Ed, perhaps you could explain what these tablets are ("I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets"), written to replace the ones Moses broke earlier. Are the tablets that were broken earlier referring to the ten commandments? If so, isn't the text saying that these new tablets will have the same words as the previous tablets? If not, what are the earlier tablets that were broken? And in any case, doesn't the bible say these are words written by god for you to obey? So shouldn't admonishments against cooking a kid in its mother's milk be posted in all public buildings? Or are you deciding which commands from god are worth listening to?

Ed, if you have no idea where my cooking commandment came from, you didn't read for comprehension. Try Exodus 34:26 Also see 34:28.

Well Ed, since the words DON'T match the previous version, god's wrong. And you seemed to want to know where the commandment against cooking a kid in its mother's milk is from; it's from where I cited. You don't seem to know the 10 commandments (or maybe it should be version 10.1)

Ed, that's where the commandment to not cook a kid in its mother's milk is found. Read for comprehension. And didn't you notice that the "words that were on the first tablets" were different this time around?

Never read Exodus 34, eh?

Ed, I guess you just can understand that atheists don't believe in any gods, so asking me if I believe in gods simply means you still don't understand what 'atheist' means. And where are the ten commandments you are referring to? Does it have the bit about "thou shalt have no other gods before me" or the bit about "thou shalt not cook a kid in its mother's milk"? There's more than one set of ten commandments in the bible, you know.

No, it wouldn't be, and if you were familiar with what Madison and Jefferson wrote, you'd know that.

That the supposedly recent "liberal" interpretation is what Madison intended. The "wall of separation" metaphor predates the USA and is not a recent creation.

James Madison, the guy who actually wrote the first amendment, said it did not allow congress to appoint a congressional chaplain and pay him using public money. Madison's views are about as broad and liberal as they come.