Merlyn_LeRoy

Oh, and before anyone points out that the victim is now 24, the lawyer supposedly claimed that the victim consented from the very start, when he was 12.

It isn't often the NY Post comes out against the Boy Scouts: http://www.nypost.com/commentary/68288.htm OH, BOY, WHAT AN OUTRAGE: SCOUTS BLAME VICTIM FOR THE RAPE By ANDREA PEYSER May 10, 2006 -- BE PREPARED. The Boy Scouts of America has come up with a sick way of protecting the organization from pedophile scoutmasters. The Scouts blame the victim for getting raped. I kid you not. It happened in the case of scoutmaster Jerrold Schwartz, who for more than 20 years led a terribly exclusive troop of Boy Scouts - Troop 666 - on the Upper East Side. Until he admitted in 2002 that he sodomized and raped a Scout, even on his own wedding night, starting when the child was 12. Schwartz is now doing up to eight years in prison. This is where it gets twisted. Faced with a lawsuit from the angry family of the young man, who at 24 is in and out of mental hospitals, the Scouts demanded the suit be dismissed. The reason? The boy wanted it! I've gotten hold of a copy of the 24-page motion, written by Scouts lawyer S. Paul Battaglia of Syracuse. From the start, he asserts the boy consented to rape - even though he was just a child. The boy "does not allege that Schwartz forced or coerced him to have physical or sexual contact with him," says the document, filed in state Supreme Court last year, but just now coming to light. "[His] allegations and testimony describe a relationship that slowly progressed from 'back rubs' to masturbation and anal sex during more than two years of sexual contact with Schwartz. During that time [the boy] became emotionally attached to Schwartz." The motion then tries to "prove" he wanted it - by quoting from the boy's deposition in the case. It is sad. "Did you ever tell him during that period of time that you loved him?" the boy was asked. "Yeah, he constantly made me say that I loved him," he replied. "So you did say that to him on occasion?" "I didn't come out and just go, 'Oh Jerry, I love you.' He would go, 'You love me, right? Tell me you love me." "And then you would respond?" "Yes." But on April 26, state Supreme Court Justice Marilyn Shafer refused to dismiss the case, ruling that the Scouts must prove their scurrilous allegations at trial. Battaglia refused comment, noting that the matter is in litigation. St. Bartholomew's Church, which is home to Troop 666, did not return a call, nor did the Greater New York Councils, Boy Scouts of America. Just who is in charge? The New York Scouts have so much juice, the list of officers and directors reads like a who's who of our city's business, media and legal elites. John Whitehead of the Lower Manhattan Development Corp. is listed as chairman of the executive committee. The advisory committee includes Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, retired chairman of The New York Times. Michael Dowd, lawyer for the young man at the center of the suit, is astonished that the Scouts should play hardball against one of their own charges. "They are supposed to be a national organization that protects children," said Dowd. "To take the position that sex between a scoutmaster in his 30s and a 12- or 13-year-old child is consensual is an outrage!" He said the young man in question is "in bad shape." Though he's trying to finish his education, he is in and out of mental institutions. He cuts himself. He's tried suicide. He needs the comfort of a service dog - like a seeing-eye dog, though the young man is not blind - just to get through the day. When Schwartz was sentenced, his mother described, in heartbreaking detail, how the young man spent hours in the bath, trying to wash Schwartz's stink off his body. It was all the more awful, because he went out of his way to get the whole family to trust him. Be careful whom you trust, New York. Once the pedophile is finished with a child, the real abuse begins.

fgoodwin writes: Training and sensitivity to diversity are so very important in this area that my heart just goes out to these poor kids and their family; their situation was bungled so badly by the ham-handed actions of the Troop Committee that I'm at a total loss to understand it. Rather hollow words from you, Fred; you didn't seem at all concerned about excluding atheists from your Cub Scout Pack, even when it was chartered by a public school.

Well, you can be happy about a 4.3% drop (or a 6.13% drop if you only look at scouting membership and don't include L4L), but I don't think the BSA is too happy. The drop in total available youth for 2005 vs. 2004 was only about 0.1%, so that's not a major factor, either.

So Ed, as you didn't seem to like my figures of 2.77 million in scouting at the end of 2005, what does April figures of only 2.15 million have to do with anything? It seems your figures are even worse.

Ed, I thought you disputed the end-of-year 2005 figures from bsa-discrimination.org; now you're saying they're irrelevant. As the BSA uses their end-of-year figures for things like their report to congress, I think these figures are still significant. By the way, Ed, what are the numbers you have for total membership? You didn't seem to think my figures of 2.77 million in scouting and 4.4 million overall were accurate for end-of-year 2005, so what figures do you have for April?

Hey Ed, do you have figures for end-of-year 2005, to compare to end-of-year 2004? By the way, there still seems to be quite a large number of BSA units chartered to public schools, and the Illinois ACLU is still interested.

An even smaller correction; I'm sure there are groups of guys who have gathered at farms outside of New York state, too.

Well Ed, Dave doesn't have anything more recent than the Feb 28, 2006 figures that jkhny already posted. How do your figures compare to those? I would think they'd be reasonably close if both set of figures are reasonably accurate.

I know you doubt the credibility of those figures Ed; your claim of having figures from March doesn't affect the credibility of them.

Hey Ed, glad you agree that your March numbers don't affect the credibility of the numbers I posted for end of year 2005; your earlier post seemed to imply otherwise. I'll see if Dave can get March figures and we can compare them.

Ed, the only way to show my source is unreliable is to post official membership figures for end-of-year 2005. Putting "reliable" in quotes doesn't work. Claiming that the difference between March 2005 and March 2006 is 177,000 doesn't show that, either. What you need to do is compare official membership figures from end-of-year 2005.

Ed, you seem to think that if the difference between March 2005 and March 2006 is only 177,000, that it's somehow impossible that the difference between Dec 2004 and Dec 2005 can't be over 400,000. That simply isn't true - the only way to determine that is to compare the figures for Dec 2004 and 2005. By the way, Ed, I've asked you to post the membership totals for March 2006 but you never do. I'm sure that's because total membership in March is even LOWER than the figures I posted. C'mon Ed, don't just post the difference, post the membership figures so they can be checked.

Ed, if, as Wyomingi's hypothetical question stated, that it was declared a "native born, white, fundamentalist Christian, republican only area", what happens before the next election? Do all the citizens who don't meet this description have to move? Then they won't be able to vote in the next election, right?

Ed, you still haven't compared end-of-year 2004 membership figures with end-of-year 2005 membership figures. By the way, what figures do you have for end of March, 2006?

Yes, you can be a scientologist in the BSA: http://www.freedommag.org/english/cw/iss18/page07.htm

Wyomingi writes: If we lived in the society that LongHaul advocates it wouldnt be long before some demagogue, wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross, would whip up 51% of a community and get them to declare a native born, white, fundamentalist Christian, republican only area. LongHaul writes: Yes! Yes! Yes! How many times must I say it? You wouldn't have to come within a thousand miles of the place if you didn't want to and they could live happily in their own little bigoted world. So What? What happens to the other 49%, LongHaul? They already live there. Do they now have to move?

DanKroh writes: Is Scientology (which as far as I know, is a religion without a god) considered acceptable by the BSA for the purposes of membership? Yep; the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre International charters Troop 8: http://www.troop8.cc/program.htm

Kaji writes: The first amendment states "a PARTICULAR religious establishment", No, it doesn't. Learn what quotes mean, and what the constitution says. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Now, if you'd like to argue that you interpret the constitution to mean "a PARTICULAR religious establishment", that's an entirely different statement, and the courts don't seem to agree with you on that.

Hey Ed, you need to compare end-of-month with same end-of-month, due to the BSA's rather creative membership counting method; note that jkhny's totals for end of February 2006 are even lower than the numbers I posted for end of December 2005. If you like, post your March 2006 numbers and we'll compare them to official BSA figures, either the membership totals at the end of 2004 or any official membership numbers that are more recent than that.

LongHaul writes: The issue here is legality, Is it legal for BSA to use this facility. Once again, the issue isn't "use", it's government support. If AP Hill was open to everyone on equal terms, and the BSA was just one organization that used it, that would be constitutional. What was struck down was legislation authorizing government support of only the BSA jamboree, and several million dollars a year was spent by the government to support it. What I would like to see happen is that the SCOTUS revisit the Bill of Rights issue and return States rights to the States. Allow people of similar views to live together and share those views. If a community wants to display religious symblos on public buildings find, you don't like it move. Including having state taxes support a specific state church? That was the case in the US up to 1832, and it presumably was constitutional until the 14th amendment was passed after the civil war. There are a few countries in the Middle East trying to decide what their official state religion will be, but instead of moving, dissenters seem to be blowing up people. What makes you think people wouldn't react similarly here?

Backpacker writes, complaining about inaccuracies: The facts are that in many areas the BSA has lost funding from the United Way and others because of pro gay groups influencing these organizations by using the ACLU to sue them into compliance. You know, I'd be real interested in finding out any information you have about supposed ACLU lawsuits "suing" organizations to stop them from donating to the BSA. Like, an example. Of course, if you're talking about government funding, the government can't fund religious organizations like the BSA. The BSA just did not take a tough enough stance to refute them and show just how much scouting contributes to society as a whole. What lawsuits are you referring to, specifically?

Penn & Teller's opening show of the season is about the Boy Scouts: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/magazine/daily/14237292.htm ... The season premiere Monday at 10 p.m. takes on what Teller calls one of his favorite topics in four years of doing the series: the Boy Scouts. "The Boy Scouts of America is no longer entirely what people think it is," Teller, who grew up in the shadow of The Inquirer tower in Philadelphia, where some people still know his first name, said in a phone interview Thursday. "Essentially, it has been hijacked by religious conservatives. "Examining that in depth was way fun. It also let Penn and me dress up in Boy Scout uniforms." Penn even got to wear the very Merit Badge sash he had decorated as a youth. His sister, a former Girl Scout, dug it out from a trunk back home in Massachusetts and sent it off to Las Vegas, where Penn & Teller perform their anti-magic show six nights a week. "I never went further than the Cub Scouts," Teller confessed in the interview, "where I did a magic show and got pelted by hard candy. It was one of the early and most painful experiences of my life, but it was character-building. "The Cub Scouts built my character by mockery and hard candy." As a tribute to the effort of Penn's sister, P&T point out at the end of the show that, unlike the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts have no rules barring membership because of sexual orientation or religious belief. This gives our guys a chance to cuddle on stage with a few cuties falling out of their Girl Scout uniforms. The magicians are serious, however, in exposing what they see as the deceptive practices of organizations like the Boy Scouts and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. In an installment later this month on the death penalty, they are even respectful of one of their guests who represents the opposing view. ... Both Penn & Teller are atheists, by the way. Here are the times the above show is supposed to run on Showtime (all times ET/PT) Monday 10:00 PM Monday 11:00 PM Thursday 10:00 PM Friday 12:00 AM Apr 8 12:00 AM

Miki101, if you're so sure you have the right numbers, and if they're so easily available, why do you refuse to post any? And by the way, I'm not trying to "brign down" the BSA, I'm preventing public schools from discriminating against atheists - any public school that charters a BSA troop is discriminating against atheists. Ed writes: The statement The actual losses will probably be higher came from your 1st post Merlyn. Ed, by "actual losses" I was referring to losses due to the BSA losing public schools as chartering organizations, because at the end of 2005 there were still public schools chartering units, so the losses for losing those schools won't show up until next year. The BSA has lost nearly 1/4 of their cub scout membership since the late 1990s, when the right-wingers in charge made it clear to the public that the BSA was a discriminatory organization. indicates the numbers posted on the link you posted are 100% accurate when you know they aren't. No, Ed, I say they are accurate. You can't read footnotes. And if there is a decline in total youth available, the BSA numbers will decline, too. The percentages might be different but stating one doesn't effect the other is just not true. Nobody has said that, Ed.

Ed writes: So you yourself are stating the numbers are not actuals. No Ed, you still can't read. I didn't write that, David, the webmaster of bsa-discrimination.org wrote that. And what he's writing is that the BSA cooks the numbers to be as favorable as possible, so the actual membership is lower than the numbers put out by the BSA. And this statement still confuses me. As you can tell, there has been no decline in the overall number of boys available to join BSA from 1995-2002, and the declines in 2003-2004, do not correlate with BSA's declining numbers. If there are less youth available, they will effect the BSA numbers. Bad spin! Well Ed, his statement looks pretty easy for me to understand. The BSA's decline in membership doesn't correlate to the changes in the number of boys age 5-17 in the US. For example, the number of boys age 5-17 declined by 0.03% from 2002 to 2003, but the BSA's membership declined by 3.16% in the same time period, so very little of that decline is due to fewer boys available.