Merlyn_LeRoy

ASM915, you may be interested to know that a Wiccan group met all the requirements for a Wiccan religious award - so the BSA changed the rules to insure that NO Wiccan award is ever approved: http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/uua-re.html And why should atheists have to 'prove' that no gods exist for their award? Theists never prove their gods exist.

adc294, currently it's permissible for a Boy Scout to be a Deist and/or believe in some sort of 'prime mover' that is completely unconcerned about humans, and thus that Boy Scout would have absolutely no duties towards that god, because his god doesn't even care about humans. So why would it be unacceptable for an atheist to, likewise, have no duties to a god? Or, alternatively, why is the Deist's god acceptable?

emb021, first, you seem to imply that any minority that is small enough can be ignored. Second, I doubt there is any country in the world with zero atheists (except, possibly, Vatican City), though many won't speak up in countries like Saudi Arabia where they would be subject to the death penalty. And third, there is a large a growing atheist population in western Europe, so it's hardly a non-issue there. Check uk.rec.scouting on atheist debates sometime. Ed, your latest screed is even more incoherent than usual. Hunt, the BSA clearly practices discrimination. I don't know why you keep trying to avoid the word. A group that said Jews (and only Jews) couldn't join would be described as discriminatory. Atheists are no different. As for one more example of why an atheist would be in scouting, what about someone who has been in scouting since age 8 and who becomes an atheist at age 16?

Ed, countries that don't have nondiscrimination laws don't somehow magically balance out countries that do. See if you can follow along: 1) In Thailand, scouting is part of the government school system 2) Thailand's constitution "...states that discrimination against a person on the grounds of "a difference in religious belief" shall not be permitted" according to the US State department. It's also one of the founding members of WOSM. Of course, you couldn't see where public school charters were a problem in THIS country when I first posted about it in this forum six years ago. Scouting Mom, some packs & troops allow atheists to not promise to do a duty to god. When I was in the cub scouts, I never said it, and nobody cared. At my age (9 or 10, I think), I knew that 'so help me god' was optional in being sworn in as president or in court, and I knew that I could skip 'under god' in the pledge, so I figured this was the same kind of thing. Nobody in the cub scout pack I joined said I couldn't omit it, and they didn't say atheists couldn't join.

Hey Ed, I know you can't learn things, but my remarks were about WOSM and scouting in other countries - scouting isn't a private organization in all other countries; in some, scouting is essentially a government program. And, of course, some countries have nondiscrimination laws that apply even to private organizations.

Like I said before, this will likely bite WOSM eventually when a scouting association in some country (probably west Europe) is found to be subject to antidiscrimination laws and can't exclude atheists. 'Simple and elegant' religious discrimination is still religious discrimination.

emb021 writes: WOSM has had that policy in place for some time, and there has been little issue. Realize that this comes from the world body of scouting, in which all scout associations have a say. They have come down on associations who try to drop 'duty to God' or allow for alternatives. The Scout Association of the UK (you know, the ones who started all this) explicitly says that NO youth will be refused membership on account of their religious views: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/eqopps/eo-pol-y.htm The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Aim and Method to young people in all parts of society. No young person should receive less favourable Treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of: class; ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race; gender; marital or sexual status; mental or physical ability; political or religious belief. You can contrast this with the adult "equal opportunity" statement that explicitly says atheists can't be warranted leaders. There is no such exclusion for atheist youth, and an explicit statement that youth will not be discriminated against due to "religious belief". This directly conflicts with any WOSM requirement that youth members must believe in at least one god. Of course, WOSM requirements are also self-contradictory, because they don't seem to understand that nondiscrimination on the basis of creed ("Scouting is open to all, regardless of race or creed, in accordance with the purpose, principles and. method conceived by its founder Robert Baden-Powell...") means that atheists must be included, or their statement "regardless of creed" is simply false. "as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists" Which ones? I am not aware of any. The UK, as shown. Scouts Canada officially states that they don't discriminate on the basis of religious belief. 'God' is optional in the Czech promise. "and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists" Again, which ones? I am not aware of any. I'm not aware of any that have gone to court, but some people in uk.rec.scouting think it would be illegal to exclude atheists, either under UK law or EU's human rights laws. Whether it was or wasn't illegal for the BSA to discriminate wasn't decided until 2000, but if another country decides that its scout program can't legally discriminate against atheists, what would happen?

Except, of course, for atheists. This will likely bite WOSM eventually, as there are countries that explicitly allow atheists, and countries where it's illegal for that country's scouting program to discriminate against atheists.

SR540Beaver writes: ... In my area, there were a lot of Crew chartered to things like the County Juvenile Detention Center, Foundation for the Disabled, Knowledge is Power Prep, Parents for PAWS, Positive Tomorrows, Service Learning Center-Campfire, Human Restorations, etc. One high school in the area had 9, count them, 9 Crews chartered to it while one church had 2 Crews. I'm willing to bet you that if I called the school and told them my son was a student and wanted to join a Venturing Crew, they would have no idea what I was talking about. ... Plus, the Juvenile Detention Center and the high school (assuming it's a public school) aren't supposed to be chartering Crews anymore, according to what BSA national said back in 2005.

38-star flags were from 1877-1890. Before 1912, star layout was not part of the official flag description, so the star layout won't tell you if it's authentic or not. It's probably 8-7-8-7-8. Like others have said, see if a local historical society or museum can authenticate it.

Phelps is a (disbarred) lawyer, and he's very careful to keep just within the law, because he knows he'd get hauled away at the slightest infraction. He was going to protest at the funerals of those Amish schoolgirls who were murdered a few weeks back, but he was offered a radio interview on the condition that he not hold a protest, and he agreed, so maybe the same thing would work in this case: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html

The religious loon plans his usual "god hates fags" protest during the funeral/memorial service of the cub scout killed in the recent parade accident: http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/dec2006/20061204_portsmouth-nh-boy-killed-by-xmas-float.pdf

Why is "having A faith" important enough, as the start of this thread asked, to go to court to exclude six- and seven-year-old atheists?

Ed, if you've actually seen illegal electioneering going on, it's your duty to report it. But I'm sure you didn't, and you're just whining as usual. You complain all the time, but you never do anything about it. That's whining.

Well Ed, if you've really found campaign workers who were electioneering too close to a polling place, I assume you've filed a proper complaint. Otherwise, I'll just assume you're whining.

I think your K of C example would go better with a pledge of allegiance issue on the ballot, since the K of C is largely responsible for inserting religion into a then-neutral pledge. And requiring any organization that even remotely can be considered political on a ballot issue is the proper thing to do, since requiring them to be 100 feet away from a polling place is not a burden, and the BSA is clearly political when it comes to atheists and gays, even if you don't think so.

I'd suppose that a group that excluded Jews would also be barred if there was an issue involving Jews on the ballot, no matter how much the supporters of the "no Jews allowed" club thought it was a minor aspect of their private, discriminatory club.

Hunt, the scouts only had to move for this election because there was a gay-connected issue on the ballot, and the scouts are (now) publically perceived as being officially anti-gay, so their presence by a polling place raised electioneering concerns. There's no general ban on charity drives near polling places, just organizations that are overtly political, like the Boy Scouts now are.

This article has errors in describing the various BSA programs, but it appears the Sea Scout Ship is asking their council to be moved under Learning for Life: http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=11-10-06&storyID=25594 Berkeley Sea Scouts Defend Their Program By Rio Bauce, Special to the Planet After their appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court failed, several Berkeley Sea Scouts (BSS) have tried to make the public understand the service they offer. The BSS have been under pressure because the City of Berkeley has accused them of operating under the discriminatory policy against gays and atheists of the Boy Scouts of America. For this reason the city took away their previously free use of the dock at the Berkeley Marina, sparking the court case. Its unfair, because I dont think were doing anything wrong, said 16-year old Boatswains Mate Keenan Nelson-Barer. We are part of the Sea Scouts organization, but we are different from them. Eugene Evans, BSS Skipper, explained that Sea Scouts of America has different umbrellas for the various scouts, such as Police Scouts, Sea Scouts, Boy Scouts, and that the BSS has attempted to change umbrellas. A committee of adults asked the Scout executive at the Pleasant Hill office if we could move from the Venturing Structure to the Scouting for Life Structure, which doesnt include the Dont Ask, Dont Tell Policy, said Evans. The Police Scouts, which the city supports, are under the Scouting for Life structure. For many, Sea Scouts represents a place to make new friends, relax, and learn new skills. Ive been going down to the boat, since my freshman year, said Boatswain James Nolting, a Berkeley High School senior. My friends were going and I figured I would try it. Ill admit that at first I didnt like it, but once I got to know people, it was really fun. You get a community away from everything else. Nelson-Barer recounts, The reason why I started to go to Sea Scouts was because I wanted to meet new people. After I went, I met older kids my age and it became really fun. Ive also learned how to operate the boat, build things, and use many types of machinery. Most importantly, I learned a lot of things from my peers. Berkeley Sea Scouts has been providing activities for youth in Berkeley since the 1930s. Kids go down to the boat, Farallon 44, at the Berkeley marina on weekends and work on it. Additionally, every Monday, there is an opportunity to go rowing in Alameda, accompanied by pizza and drinks. The membership is at around forty kids, said Evans. The way we do our membership is a bring-a-buddy system. One of the issues we try to deal with is being good citizens. Nolting explains that Sea Scouts is not only a place for kids to learn essential skills, but also a place to have fun. On the boat, we teach carpentry and plumbing, said Nolting. We teach people how to row. We do a lot of water-skiing activities and surfing activities. We do service projects at Angel Island. We go on overnighters to Jack London Square and see movies. We go on surf trips down to Santa Barbara. One of the best things is the big 10-day summer cruise to Sacramento, where we go water-skiing. We go anywhere that kids want to go. You stay in Sea Scouts because of people you meet down there. Lucas Buckman, former Sea Scout, says that his time at Sea Scouts was life-changing. I learned skills, said Buckman, a BHS junior, which I can channel into my everyday life. Sea Scouts helped me become more responsible. Its like a brotherhood that I will never forget. Evans explains that the Berkeley Sea Scouts are not attempting to advance a political agenda, but rather they are just trying to survive. In August 1932, there were eight or nine Sea Scout boats at the marina, said Evans. We were the first boat, and we are the last. None of us are really political savvy to deal with these problems ... we really dont have control over the policy [of the Boy Scouts]. We are serving two masters: the city government and the management structure of the Boy Scouts. Serving two masters is an impossible situation. Our interest in this issue has been simply to stay alive. We just want to stay alive to be a Sea Scout unit to serve boys. Theres no political agenda on the Sea Scout boat. Evans credits young people in Berkeley with the survival of Farallon 44. The only way this organization survives is that we provide what the boys in Berkeley want, remarked Evans. We cant do anything that it out-of-step with the young men of Berkeley who participate. Otherwise, we wouldnt exist anymore. People who are interested in helping the Berkeley Sea Scouts continue to serve the youth of Berkeley may send donations or queries to: Sea Scouts Ship Farallon Inc., PO Box 184, El Cerrito, CA 94530. Rio Bauce is a member of the Berkeley Sea Scouts.

Not "strike fear"; the boy scouts are no longer regarded as politically neutral. Since gay marriage was on the ballot in Wisconsin, the clerk felt that the BSA's anti-gay stance made the mere presence of Boy Scouts possible electioneering.

If you read the story, they *did* peaceably assemble; they just had to be at least 100 feet away from the nearest polling place.

http://www.channel3000.com/politics/10277763/detail.html POSTED: 9:28 pm CST November 8, 2006 MADISON, Wis. -- The Boy Scout food drive has been a part of Sun Prairie's elections for several years, but this year election officials, citing the organization's ideals, asked the scouts to move their service project away from the polls. Voters had strong opinions on the marriage amendment question on Tuesday's ballot, but the issue proved controversial even outside the voting booth in Sun Prairie during the election. In past years, scout master Stephen Dewitt set up tables just outside the polls, but this year, Sun Prairie's city clerk made sure the scouts where 100 feet from the doors to the polling place. "On this election, it was an issue because of knowledge of past issues with the Boy Scouts, their oath, and we had the marriage referendum on the ballot. It was a perceived possible conflict of interest," said Diane Hermann-Brown, city clerk for Sun Prairie. But troop leaders said their food drive has nothing to do with politics. "We're here for community service, that's what the boy scouts are all about. So we're not here protesting anything, right or wrong, either way, one side or the other. We're here trying to do community service for the people in need in Sun Prairie," Dewitt said. The distance from the polls did catch the attention of some voters, WISC-TV reported. "I don't agree with it. I don't think that what they're doing has anything to do with politics. They're collecting food for the needy and hungry, and they have a right to be here," said voter Pat Kiley. While most voters said they didn't view the scouts' food drive as electioneering, some said it is always better to err on the side of caution. "I think when it comes to elections, with the tampering and the things that I have seen happen, I'd prefer that there'd be more rules than less," said voter Julie Lindsay. Sun Prairie's city clerk said the scouts will be allowed back into the building for the next election. The clerk said every similar situation is handled case by case with many grey areas in between.

BrentAllen writes: You, along with others on the left, are forced to pull single sentences out of context to attack Bush. Do you see how ridiculous that makes you look? Is that the best you can do - twist single sentences around into such a knot that they are the opposite of what was actually said? I really feel sorry for you guys. Bush said exactly what I quoted, and the meaning in context is the same. He wasn't interested in finding Osama bin Laden way back in 2002, and there certainly hasn't been much effort expended on capturing someone responsible for killing thousands of Americans. Why? And how does that make Bush look? How did he look doing nothing while the 9/11 attacks were ongoing?

BrentAllen writes: We haven't been attacked by terrorists since 9/11 Not true. The still-unsolved anthrax attacks were just one week later. As for 9/11, where's Osama bin Laden, anyway? Why isn't Bush interested in capturing a known terrorist responsible for killing thousands of Americans? http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html "And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him." Live free or Diebold

That old saying should be: "Fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/bushvideos/v/bushfoolme.htm In this particular case, I think Bush knew the saying well enough, he's just psychologically unable to say "shame on me."