Merlyn_LeRoy

SSScout writes: I do not choose to be a Jew. I do not choose to be a Baptist. I do not choose to be an athiest. But I could. I disagree. You might be convinced to become an atheist. You could also pretend to be an atheist. But could you choose to be an atheist for, say, an hour? If not, then how is it a choice?

Ed, I've explained it to you before, and you simply can't learn. Public schools CAN discriminate in some ways. Religion isn't one of them.

LongHaul, the ratifying of the constitution wasn't entirely separate from the bill of rights; that's what the federalists and anti-federalists were arguing about, and some opposed ratification until they got at least a promise of later amendments. And the original constitution, with or without the bill of rights, still allowed for states to have official state religions, financed by public taxes, and religious requirements for office, so of course a city could be an official Christian city and put up their own religious icons. The states even had the authority to make other religions illegal. Plus, your wrong about what the supreme court ruled; they NEVER ruled that the BSA doesn't discriminate, they ruled that the BSA is a private organization that isn't subject to public accomodation laws. The BSA can legally exclude Wiccans, Muslims, Jews, blacks, or anybody else.

Ed, you're the one claiming such groups exist, not me. I'll go look as soon as you bring me a snipe, ok?

Maybe the BSA should become a non-sectarian organization.

Ed, you neglected to give any concrete examples of such discriminatory groups. Can you list some? If you list groups that aren't school-run groups but are, instead, private groups that meet in public schools on the same basis as any other outside group, I'll berate your mercilessly.

Gonzo1, you also don't understand the difference between a public school chartering a scout unit vs. a public school allowing a scout unit (or an atheist group) to meet in the school. In the case of a public school chartering a unit, it's a school youth group, just like a school chess club. The school, according to the BSA, selects leaders for the unit, and is expected to exclude atheists. Public schools can't do this. They are expected to exclude atheist students. Public schools can't do this, either. Now, in the case of private groups using school facilities, both a scout pack and an atheist group are on equal footing. Both can use facilities on the same basis. As to the case of cities being sued over christmas trees, I don't think city governments should be in the business of promoting religious holidays. Having the government decide what holidays to promote and what holidays NOT to promote is more along the lines of your Tehran example. And if we're equal Gonzo1, where are there cities putting up signs saying "gods are myths" using public money? Why do you want your religious views promoted by the city but not mine? You want your views paid for with my tax money, but if I want my views promoted, your answer is that I have to do it myself -- only the majority gets to have its religious views promoted by the government. Well, that really isn't how it works in the US. And yes, if you can't meet in your public school, other outside groups can't either. That's what equal treatment means. You can't compare two different schools, because one school might (legally) allow any outside groups, while another school might (legally) allow NO outside groups.

There's no difference Ed, public schools can't run either group. But you've never understood the difference between a school running a private group vs. private groups using school facilities.

Gonzo1, the BSA says the chartering organization "owns and operates" the pack or troop, so any public school that charters one "owns and operates" a private club that excludes atheists, so yes, the school IS discriminating against atheists. I also don't see what "bending over backwards" is being done of behalf of atheists -- do you have any actual examples? And I'm not OK with the city spending a few bucks putting up religious symbols. That simply isn't the function of government. SSScout, the ACLU of Illinois pointed out to the BSA that public schools and other government agencies can't charter BSA units: http://www.aclu-il.org/news/press/2005/03/national_boy_scout_organizatio.shtml The BSA agreed to recharter them and not charter BSA units to government agencies. At that time, about 9,000 units were chartered by government entities, most of them public schools. Public schools used to rank #1 in chartering cub scout packs back when the BSA kicked the Randall twins out; I guess nobody at the BSA could forsee the obvious problems.

Gonzo1, not having public schools practice religious discrimination does not prevent you from exercising your first amendment rights in the least. And apparently, you think people who make up 3% of the population aren't "entitled" to civil rights. Sorry, that's not how it works. By the way, if you want to look at a cross, build it with your own money and put it on your own property. You might notice the lack of lawsuits against such crosses.

Eagledad, what's "kind and compassionate" about public schools practicing religious discrimination? Or do you think the BSA would allow public schools to admit atheists? I've actually talked with David Park in the BSA legal department, and he said no, atheists could not join a BSA unit chartered to their own public school. So point out the kind and compassionate part; I can't seem to find it. I also can't seem to find your answer to what happens when an atheist is kicked out of a BSA unit chartered by a public school.

epalmer84 writes: Merlyn: I would be interested in any information you might have on specific Wiccan groups such as CoG that were denied a charter. Here are some usenet posts from the mid 1990s from people involved: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.pagan/msg/f847486d38ad6e28 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.pagan/msg/a0b073fea9518832 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/104d8803c02b1cac http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/4ec979ca61b85b38 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/msg/956607499541118d

Ed, the decision today was only based on standing - it doesn't affect anything else, much less the BSA's announced decision to stop chartering units to public schools and other government entities. Eagledad, if public schools still chartered BSA units, what do you think would happen if an atheist was kicked out of it for not being a believer? You chide my "legalistic idealism", but what happens when it's impossible to look the other way? What happens in this case?

Eagledad, removing public school charters wasn't an attempt to "force" the BSA to do anything; it was to force public schools to disassociate themselves from a program that required those schools to practice religious discrimination. Non-governmental chartering organizations can ignore the BSA's religious requirements if they like, but public schools can't "pretend" to discriminate while allowing atheist students to sneak in and "pass" for theists in a school-sponsored club. Religious freedom is too important.

Eagledad, as I recall, the national BSA was the organization that made "being exclusive" an issue by removing atheists, even if that went against the wishes of the local council, the chartering organization of the unit, and the other members of the unit. And if you want to encourage prejudice and ignorance against members of minority religions like Wicca, by all means give in to people's uninformed fears about them so they'll likely never have to actually meet any. Xenophobia is so much easier.

ASM915, the CoG already tried to charter some scout units - the national BSA refuses to charter any units to them. That way Wiccans can never get an officially recognized religious award, which is apparently the goal.

Gonzo1, I'd be interested in what your reaction was back in 1998 when, at the stroke of a pen, the entire Explorer program dropped the old Explorer code and admitted atheists.

As I hinted at in the thread this was spun off of, I think the rule was (rather hastily) created expressly to prevent official recognition of the Wiccan "hart and crescent" award. They qualified under the old rules, so the old rules were changed, and they can't qualify under the new rules, because BSA national won't approve of any Wiccan group as a chartering org.

More to the point, the BSA has refused to issue charters to wiccan groups.

Dan, from what I've read about the situation, the BSA has deliberately prevented CoG or any other "unacceptable" religion from having a recognized award. When CoG met the old requirements, the BSA changed the requirements (chartering at least 25 units); when CoG wanted to charter some units, the BSA refused.

Gonzo1 writes: But, I disagree that BSA gets priviledged use, gay and lesbian clubs are on school campuses, but the religious groups can't meet (or have a difficult time to meet), that doesn't seem fair. You'll have to be a bit more specific. There are examples of gay & lesbian clubs (and atheist clubs) being denied meeting space, too. There are also examples of the BSA getting privileged use. If a group of atheists want to use a school gym, scouts should be allowed to also. If gays want to meet in clubs at school, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes should be allowed also. I agree. The community , that is THE COMMUNITY should set the standard for who meets at the school, the library, the fire station, etc. But now you seem to be saying the exact opposite -- if the community can set the standards on who gets to meet, couldn't they allow the atheist group and deny the scout group, or vice-versa? But, BSA has done a good job of changing charter partners away from schools. Pretty good, but they had to be threatened into doing so. They had no problem signing up public schools as chartering partners and expecting them to exclude atheists earlier. ...So, you don't want to destroy scouting, you think boys should learn knots, first aid, swimming, lashings, camping, backpacking, etc, you just want atheists involved. Only problem is, we don't. Depends on who "we" are; a number of BSA members in this forum don't agree, so you can't say that "we" even refers to all scouts in this forum, much less all scouts in the BSA. From what I've seen, the members who are the actual "boy" part of the BSA are about the least supportive of the BSA's exclusionary policies.

Gonzo1 writes: I gotta disagree with Ed on this about merlyn. I don't think merlyn wants to really destroy scouting, but rather doesn't like BSA stance on religion, God, I assume homosexuals in scouting, use of public taxpayer facilities (which we all pay taxes to use) for scouting, etc. I think merlyn would be OK with scouting if BSA included atheists. Maybe gays and girls too, I don't know. So, I gotta wonder, am I right merlyn? It would be a big improvement in my opinion, yes. Also note that I'm opposed to privileged use of public taxpayer facilities by the BSA; the BSA should be treated the same as any other group.

Well, he IS an actor/TV show host working without a script, remember...

Why, nothing Ed. But this forum is for Issues & Politics in scouting. If you didn't want to read something about UK scouting, maybe you shouldn't have clicked on it.

BBC radio programme "You and Yours" including an interview with UK scouting Chief scout Peter Duncan from March 13, 2007: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/2007_11_tue.ram segments with him are from 0:52 - 5:20 29:26 - 52:00 His view of the UK's scouting association religion policy has some in uk.rec.scouting wondering if he meant that atheists can or can't join. Starting at 46:16 [reading email from Hazel Fuller] Belief in a god of some kind is an absolute requirement, isn't it, for membership of the scouting movement? As an atheist and Humanist, I hope I have a morality that doesn't rely on a belief in a mystical and unprovable being, but my children, were they still young enough to join, would be barred from the excellent things that scouting promotes. I don't believe that religion should have a place in the scouting movement; just as I affirm and accord, so should a non-believer be able to affirm to moral values as a scout. What is the position on that? Peter? Well, you do have to have a faith or a belief system to be a scout; when you consider it's a world-wide movement and there's 28 million currently doing it -- in fact there's more Muslim scouts -- the point about, behind that, really, is that, I think -- and this is a personal belief -- I think that, a spiritual side to the question of why we're here and what we're for. We're not saying you've got to believe in a Christian god or that kind of god, there is a sense that we want to explore that territory. The word "god" is used in the promise though, isn't it? It is a word in the promise, but the word "god" could be a generic god. It doesn't have to be a particular god. And your leader, you know... it's a difficult thing, and I know it just puts some people off... ...And Hazel may not want her children to be hypocritical. Yes, but in the sense, if you're, if you're an atheist, or a Humanist, it's as much as having a religion as not having a religion in some ways, I mean, their...belief systems...are difficult things to contend with. But scouting, or people who are scouts and guilds, it's the cross-section of humanity. It's, it's, people have little bits of belief, people have great belief. It encompasses all of our belief systems.