Merlyn_LeRoy

Beavah, if there aren't any committed atheists, there aren't any committed theists, either, so WHY HAVE A RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE? And that still doesn't change all the BSA councils that have clearly used HUD grants to fund BSA programs that exclude atheists. Choose one: 1) HUD grants 2) excluding atheists You don't get both. Yes, many BSA councils are dishonest and get (or try to get) HUD funding anyway. It's pretty telling that you don't seem to be concerned at all about councils lying to get money. The city manager also told me that the funds would be redistributed, so yes, that money WILL go to help the public - ALL of the public, not just the segment that the BSA deigns to allow inside their private, religious club.

It was voted into next years' budget 7 months ago, Ed. Yes, I only discovered it in January. The council cancelled the contract before any funds were distributed.

I just said, when I asked the city council who I could talk to on the Los Padres council to ask whether atheists could join Soccer & Scouting, the next email I got from the city manager said the Los Padres council cancelled their contract. So as soon as I started asking around, the Los Padres council dropped it like a hot potato(e). I think a lot of people here realize that the Soccer & Scouting program is just an attempt by the BSA to inflate Cub Scout membership. And if the S&S program was going to be open to all, why did the council cancel the contract? If I had asked if it was open to Jews, would the council cancel the program, or just answer "yes"? They bailed because they were caught.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

Ed, the national BSA says Soccer & Scouting uses the same membership forms, which includes the DRP. When I asked the city manager who I could contact at the Los Padres council about the program (since I know during the pilot program that different councils handled S&S differently, so it was possible that their S&S program would allow atheists), the next email I got was that the Los Padres council cancelled their contract. So as soon as the question of atheists was raised, the council cancelled the program. The BSA can still run a Soccer & Scouting program, they just can't DEFRAUD THE PUBLIC and use a HUD grant that REQUIRES NON-DISCRIMINATION to do so. Understand that part yet, Ed? The money the Los Padres council wanted to use requires that they agree to not discriminate on the basis of religion. The council was willing to lie and get that money.

Two Boy Scout councils have recently attempted to receive HUD Community Development Block Grants to finance some of their programs that exclude atheists. All HUD CDB grants require nondiscrimination on the basis of religion, yet BSA officials signed nondiscrimination agreements anyway. Here's one, from the city of Santa Maria, California. Their council minutes have this: http://ci.santa-maria.ca.us/minutes/CityCouncil-20070717rm.pdf ... Resolution No. 2007-106 was adopted approving the allocation of CDBG Program Income in the amount of $8,864 as follows: $2,855 to the Boy Scouts, $2,854 to the Boys and Girls Club, and $2,855 to the Campfire Girls, ... I emailed the city council, asking what the Boy Scouts proposed to do with the money, as the council minutes didn't say. Here's what I got from the Community Programs Manager: ... the Boy Scouts of America (Los Padres Council) received a 2007 CDBG allocation in the amount of $2,955 from the City to conduct a soccer clinic as part of their Soccer & Scouting Program in Santa Maria. We have received no complaints or reports that this agency has discriminated or denied services to anyone based on race, color, national origin, sex, religion, age or handicap. ... I pointed out that the official Soccer & Scouting says that normal BSA youth membership forms are used for the program (see www.soccerandscouting.org/resources/pdf/13-281.pdf ), and that these forms have the usual Declaration of Religious Principle to sign as part of membership, and that no HUD financed program can require recipients to sign a religious declaration to participate, as that's religious discrimination in violation of HUD requirements for CDB grants. I also asked for contact information at the Los Padres council so I could ask if their Soccer & Scouting program admitted atheists. The next email from the Santa Maria city manager said that the Los Padres council cancelled their contract agreement. The Pike's Peak council is slated to receive a $5,000 CDB grant from Colorado Springs (the council has received a similar amount in past years): http://www.springsgov.com/units/budget/2008/2008PAppendixC.pdf ... Boy Scouts of America - Scoutreach 4,000 5,000 CDBG [note: $4000 grant in 2007, $5000 proposed in 2008) ... Boy Scouts of America, Scoutreach This program provides outreach to ethnic minorities that have been traditionally underserved, youth from single-parent families, youth in danger of dropping out of school or already expelled, and youth involved in the juvenile diversion program. Scoutreach is a vehicle for the local Pikes Peak Council to establish packs, troops and crews and attract boys, young men, and women who would otherwise not be able to gain the benefits of scouting membership. ... The city manager said they were assured by the Pike's Peak council that "participation is open to all boys", and that this was what the council was told back in 2005 when I inquired back then about a CDB grant. Well, I actually called the Pike's Peak council and asked the person in charge of the Scoutreach program if atheists could participate, and, of course, I was told no, they couldn't. Again, in direct violation of HUD CDB grant requirements. The city council has been talking with their attorneys about freezing the funds, and I'll be receiving a copy of the non-discrimination clause that the BSA council sent to the city. This one hasn't been settled yet, but I think it's clear that both councils attempted to get HUD grants under deliberately false pretenses.

Apparently Pappy's concept of manliness involves ALL CAPS (or, as programmers might say, GREAT RUNES).

There does seem to be very little actual religion in scouting in the UK, which only makes the SA's refusal to make 'god' in the promise optional seem even less reasonable. Is there any purpose in both requiring atheist kids to be admitted and requiring them to say they promise to do their 'duty to god'?

scoutingagain writes: Pappy, The BSA already has a program very much like you describe. As OGE noted it is called Veturing and is open to all youth ages 14-21. No, that would be Exploring. Venturing still excludes gays and atheists.

Hey Pappy, I'll show you just as much respect as you show atheists and "Wickans" -- no less, and certainly no more. At the moment, that amount appears to be zero.

I don't know if you've noticed Ed, but this is about the Scout Association in the UK, not the BSA.

Of course, it's religious discrimination; the question is whether it's legal or illegal.

MarkS writes: Agreed that the city is saying that BSA was violating the ordinance they wrote subsequent to the original lease and that it's fair for the city to ask for fair market rates but to say that because an organization gets a fee or tax break from a government entity means that the government agrees with and supports the policies of an organization is a stretch. I'm not saying that at all, and I don't think the city council was saying that, either. The city council said that they, the city council, would be violating the ordinance by continuing a lease arrangement with the BSA. And I'd say that subsidising an organization is pretty direct support of that organization.

Marx wrote: I don't agree that honoring the original lease constitutes government-supported discrimination. Leasing government property for $1/year is subsidising the BSA, which is a discriminatory organization. They can stay if they pay market rates, because then the city won't be subsidising them.

*I* try to purposely confuse being religious, being a religion, or being in support of a particular religion? Where? This is especially confusing with what you say right after that: ...over 82% of Americans feel their religious beliefs are important to them, a figure that has barely waivered in many years. By that very statistic one would have to admit that we are a religious nation. Hey Bob, I'm an atheist, and I would say that yes, MY religious beliefs are important to me, too. You can't assume that everyone answering "yes" to that question believes in gods, but you apparently are making such an assumption. I do not see how you rationally believe that you can ever separate the American people from something they obviously feel is important to them. I do not see where I have ever suggested such a thing. What on earth are you talking about?

So Bob, since you're still commenting in this thread, how about your opinion on the subject of this thread? Do you think the BSA is a religious organization? By the way, I thought Trevorum's "white elephant in the room" wasn't a misuse of the white elephant metaphor, but a clever portmanteau of both "white elephant" and "elephant in the room," signifying that the BSA's status as a religious organization is both a truth that some people are trying to ignore, and expensive in terms of upkeep by way of e.g. losing public school charters.

As I figured, Bob uses a majortarian argument. Of course, the BSA could exclude, say, Jews, and that would be fine, since there also aren't many Jews in the US. Or Muslims, or even Mormons (if you're going by percent of the general population, and not percent of current BSA membership). He also uses the BSA's admission of Buddhists as if that means all Buddhists are monotheists, which is absurd. And he also oversimplifies Hinduism as if all Hindus are monotheists. You can't even depend on Christians being monotheists; a 2003 Harris poll found that 1% of Christians didn't believe in god. What is his point? Apparently, none at all. It has nothing to do with whether the BSA is a religious organization or not. So Bob, do you agree that the BSA is a religious organization?

I of course realize that you're only angling to make your usual sort of irrelevant majortarian argument, but why are you acting like a child who needs to be spoon-fed information? Are you completely unable to find the CIA factbook information online? Did you manage to miss adherents.com with a simple google search?

What's your point, Bob? If you aren't going to answer, don't feel obligated to respond.

Bob White writes: Allow me to ask for relevant facts if you don't mind. I don't mind at all. What's your point, Bob? And if you're asking for "relevant facts", how are they relevant?(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

The CIA factbook on China doesn't have much of a breakdown on religion, it just says: Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Christian 3%-4%, Muslim 1%-2% note: officially atheist (2002 est.) I've seen other sources state that a lot of Chinese are lumped under "Chinese folk religions" and presumably fall under "other religions" in the CIA categories, with some in non-religious, atheist, Buddhists, Christians, and Muslims. But with about 20% of the world's population, they'd be the bulk of other religions and non-religious, and possibly atheists and/or Buddhists. But Daoist/Taoist wasn't large enough to get their own group under world religions, even though the smallest, Baha'is, were 0.12%

Bob, what's your point? scoutldr, you sign off on the short form, but you're agreeing to abide by the long form. The registration form says you're agreeing to the DRP, but only prints an excerpt from it, not the whole thing. The long form of the DRP does not seem to be on scouting.org; maybe that's so they can change it whenever they feel like it, and inform the proles whenever they get around to it, much like their "no gays" policy was a secret, internal policy for so long.

Gold Winger, where does the BSA officially state that "duty to god" can be changed to "duty to gods" or "duty to allah" or whatever? The Girl Scouts have an asterisk by the word "god" in their promise, with a footnote stating that the word can be changed to something else. I haven't found anything like that for the BSA. Note that the actual practices by individual troops don't count, as there are troops that also allow gays and/or atheists to join, even though that isn't official BSA policy.

Well Bob, that's something of a subjective question, since e.g. some Jehovah's Witnesses consider trinitarians to be polytheists, but counting even trinitarians as monotheists and no Hindus or Buddhists or "non-religious" as monotheists (even though that's not always correct), but counting "other religions" as all monotheist (which is also not always correct) and Jews (ditto), the CIA world factbook comes up with almost exactly 2/3rds of the world's population as monotheist (66.81%) and the rest as not. What's your point?

If the BSA had called itself a religious organization from the outset, it would have been more obvious that the city couldn't award them a no-bid contract for 18 acres of city property. As it was, once the judge found that the BSA was a religious organization, the city's handpicking of the BSA for the lease made it a first amendment violation.

It's way to late not to go down that rabbit hole. Do you realize that the long form of the Declaration of Religious Principle contains religious statements (religious statements that not all religions agree upon)? Do you realize that all of the reasons given in court for excluding gays are essentially religious? It's because gays aren't "clean" or "morally straight". Wiccans are prevented from having a recognized religious award because they are looked down upon by the BSA religious committee. And see if the BSA will allow changing the wording of 'duty to god' to 'gods' or 'allah'.