Backwoods

By the way, the above advice was directed toward your friend, or anyone who is dealing with a similar situation.

Wow, what a hard serious struggle to undertake as someone who obviously cares deeply about youth. What a horrible and desperate feeling for the lad to feel he only had one choice. I would advise a few key things, these things coming from my training as a psychologist and (previously) a crisis hotline director: 1) Talk clearly and openly about your concern about him with both he and his parent. 2) Elicit a "safety contract" from him. He must promise out loud that if he feels that hopeless again he will call you, or his counselor, or his mother and let them know. 3) Make sure he is in treatment, not just taking pills from the local doctor. 4) Help him come up with a plan to keep up his grades and still be the super-scout he enjoys being. 5) keep an eye on him, suicides often occur when people appear to be getting better (the end is in sight phenomenon) 6) Make sure you share the above burden with your other leaders and, if possible, school staff. We are often concerned that paying too much attention to the problem, or blowing it out of proportion will foster negative, dramatic, behavior. We also worry that the child is blowing their own problems out of proportion, and we fear encouraging them. Know this: in these cases it is absolutely OK to err on the side of overprotection, consider the alternative. I too will have you all in my prayers. Feel free to contact me off-thread if you have any questions for me.

Oh... and Dick Morris? he is a political hack, spin-doctor or strategist, take your pick of titles. He's not an economist, accountant, or even particularly gifted with numbers. Be careful where you get your facts!

Well, what a dust-up! I think this is a great example of the hidden diversity in this legion of scout leaders that is often depicted as monolithic and blindly conservative. The debate so far has not descended into ad hominim attacks, which is great, but it has steered off topic, which is not. Obama-proof? thats a silly repetition of Cramer's nonsense (who not too long ago extolled the virtues of some now defunct companies like Lehman Brothers). But, I'll play ball. I, like most of the the country, will NOT be making more than 250,000 or even 200,000 dollars this year, I will continue to buy American, I will continue to volunteer in my community, and I will continue to patriotically support my country and its elected officials and citizens. I have a geothermal heating sytem in my house and have a truck that runs on fryer oil. I reduce, re-use and recycle. If I am asked to do or spend more so that we all can be better off, I will do so, so that we all can remain proud and strong and hopeful. This is the greatest country that has ever graced the face of this good green Earth, and it does not need knuckleheads (ok now I've gone ad hominim) tearing away at our public officials in order to preserve their own portion of the American dream, while others see it slip away. The spending has been going on for a good long time, and must be paid for. So... my version of Obama-proofing is to make sure I am out in front leading, not in the rear fretting.

by the way,are there OKPIK courses offered in the Northeast?

Well, I'd say that depends on your training and equipment. Most scouts have the general equipment to stay comfy down to 20 degrees, below that and you will need more than layers and and your Wal Mart bag. I'm in upstate New York, we Troop camped at a council event in October and the temperature went into the teens the first night. We all slept soundly. Thats about as low as we would go without some significant preparation and serious gear review. Its nice to know how to treat hypothermia and frostbite, but not to HAVE to treat them! I concur with the others, parents get to decide if the kids go, however, leaders have to decide if the Troop goes.

They can participate at a council sponsored event (Day camp, scout camp, or other event) if they are registered with the BSA. This would include Learning for Life members, making it possible and relatively easy for the female sibs to be a part of the activity.

Oh... so it is for an Cell phone/Ipod/MP3/thingee thing thing. Thats great, just great. Just one more argument when we give the "no electronic devices at camp" speech.

Wow. 8 uniforms! yikes, thats a lot of scouterphernalia! I bridged over into Boy Scouts in 1980, just when the DeLarenta Uniform change was made. I was lucky enough to get a hand-me-down olive uniform with the fold down pockets, collarless shirt, and envelope hat. I showed up at a meeting and... was totally embarrassed! Well, I got over it rapidly, but it put a small dent in me. Lucky for today's lads, the change is really minor. If the troop springs for epaulets and numbers, the kids can pretty much use whatever shirt they end up with. They will be tan, and will have collars and pockets, just not the cigarette pocket on the sleeve! Really, what is that for anyway? Compass? Ipod? flint and steel? Anybody have the official line on the pocket that will get sewn shut with the position patch on the left sleeve?

Well, this post has been thoroughly responded to! Beavah, Lisabob, Twocubdad, Evmori, John in KC, SR540 Beaver, and OGE have all weighed in. SeaGull99 has certainly gotten her money's worth! As the thread has sort of concluded if not stopped, SeaGull99's son has moved on to a new troop and no longer has to deal with the old troop's leadership, I wonder if size has contributed to the problem. When I read that the Troop limits who goes on the campouts, I was like many of you kind folks, flabbergasted. Now there is a word I don't get to write much, but I think you all agree that it is appropriate here. It seems to me that the Scoutmaster has begun to succumb to the dark side of supply and demand. If his troop had 10 boys, I am sure that he would be a little more facilitative of their progress. As it is, he can be fairly fickle with his demands on them. SeaGull99, when I mentioned your son's attendence as a factor earlier, I really wasn't trying to impugn your son's character, I was trying to point out that there appears to be some other expectations that were not made very clear to your boy. He did not go to the meeting, because he was not going to the campout, because he was not one of the first 20-25 to sign up. The scoutmaster could very well value those 20-25 boys more than the ones who are slow to sign up. In his secret scoutmasters handbook (you know, the one he wrote on his own and keeps in his head), your son may not fit the mold he would like for a scout in "his" troop, and therefore, he pressures him slowly into leaving by denying him advancement, catching him "being bad" and refusing to give him information or assistance. I have seen this sort of leadership behavior in all kinds of units before, but particularly in large Troops. These Troops end up with a two-tiered membership, retaining the "A-list" scouts, and shedding the "B-listers" as they go along. So, I am wondering what some of the wise scouters out there think of the idea that sometimes a Troop can be dangerously large? Do ya'll believe that there is a danger in a Troop being over a certain size, or is it just about bad adult leadership? Maybe this is a new thread, maybe there is already a posting on this notion, I'm not sure.

I read the book when it first came out. I took it as a major indictment of modern parenting and society's relegation of children to the shelf. I recommend it to anybody I can who works with children. It brought back a great deal of memories, and some dreams I had let go of. He mentions "Shelters, Shacks, and Shanties" by Daniel Beard, a book I knew of as a child, but had no access to. Well, he reminded me of it and I was able to find a copy on the internet. It is chock-a-block full of gritty basic fort construction techniques that I happily shared with my son. But I digress... It is important to me as a father, and youth volunteer, that we pay more attention to how we are choking the life out of our children with over-scheduled, under-creative activities. Give me a walk in the woods any day.

Well... this is some post. As a psychologist I like to look at the "thing behind the thing", it really doesnt take much training, but it does take some interest and honesty. It seems like you have two forces at work here; the scoutmaster's needs and your son's/your needs. The scoutmaster seems to value his control of the process of the Troop and the boy's behavior. You seem to value much the same for your son. Your boy, I am assuming would like to please both of you while having a good time. Some things you said caused me to prick up my ears. "Last night the troop had a planning meeting for a camp out scheduled for this weekend. We weren't there because my son is not attending this camp out..." This thread started with you discussing a meeting that your son missed with the flu. I wonder if your expectations and your son's expectations match the leaders' expectations? Don't get me wrong, from what you report the SM is not responding appropriately, but he is acting out because your son missed a meeting. How many does he miss? what is the expectation? In our Troop the meeting is the meeting, regardless of who is attending the weekend outing, all are expected, indeed all should want to be there. In the end none of the advice is likely to change the SM. You have three choices, wait patiently and follow his lead, move to a different unit, or accumulate power and influence and try to oust him as Scoutmaster. Personaly I think the last one is the worst option, and still requires the first option, AND may not work anyway. Your son has some time, if this turns into a long term freeze-out, look for another unit. In the meantime he has merit badges to work on. Good luck.

Wow the things we navigate to get some boys into the outdoors and help them develop some positive personal attributes! DeanRx sure seems to stir the pot. The what ifs are really interesting to me in light of the repeated posts quoting G2SS and other rules and regs. They make pretty clear the types of behavior that is intolerable. The notion of the leader too fat to lead would, in my experience, lead to our council losing the majority of its most experienced volunteers. I think that the more interesting question is HOW you deal with behavior that is unnacceptable, or "intolerable". If it was easy, I don't think the forum would be so devoted to discussing all the possible sins against scouting. The real issue is similar whether its a scouting unit, or a professional setting; how to confront the one who has stepped outside the circle of acceptable behavior. When they are way outside of the norm, its easy to notice isn't it? The scout executive who gets drunk and vomits on the honoree for instance. But even then, who steps forward and says Jim, your behavior is not acceptable and we are driving you home... etc.? I don't have good answers for this thread, but I do enjoy struggling with the questions, I like Beavah's way of framing the troubled adult as taking valuable resources away from the unit. After all, I've only got one hour a week, I want to give it to the kids!

This is a fairly common dillemma in my brief experience. I know many leaders who hold dual positions in their cub unit. I myself was my son's Tiger Den Leader and Cubmaster. I think that in all actuality my son liked me being CM better than Den Leader. It wasn't that he didn't enjoy den meetings, quite the contrary, he just like the fact that I was the big cheese. DYB-Mike gave the best advice I think, that being what do you want to do. The worst case scenario involves you getting involved over your head and burning out, making the experience a net negative for your son. In the end it is not ACM or TDL that you are being recruited for, it is Cubmaster, don't lose track of that. I am willing to bet that the 18 months will shrink to a year or less if you step up. The biggest question you need to ask is how much support would you have in the position, is the unit functioning well? Is there an active and vital committee? If so, then the CM gets to focus on programming only and the Committee makes sure there are enough paper plates for the blue and gold dinner. If the CM has created a one-man show, you should be a bit wary of stepping into the line of fire. For me, I had a great committee, which allowed me to be the dancing bear on stage. We had successful and vital programming and miles of smiles. The added planning and responsibility was well worth it to me. As it turns out my son had a great time and bridged into Boy Scouts this past February. I have eased back into an assistant scoutmaster position in the Troop, which is a LOT less work. GOOD LUCK. Let us know what you decide!

interesting question, good opportunity. As the father of multiple scouts, girl and boy, one thing that I have noticed in both organizations is the more involved the scout is in planning, the more fun they have. This goes equally for the successes and the mistakes. If I were the leader of your Troop, I would start by asking them what they would like to get out of a year of Girl Scouting. Of course I would have a coouple of ideas myself ready for the suggesting! Each of the girls may have some interesting ideas to offer for service or activity. You might be surprised at what they come up with. Even if they come up with "girly" things that you might want to steer away from, remember it is their Troop. I would sit down at your next meeting with a calender and some goals. Look at the advancement needs (bronze), and your own desires along with their ideas and mark up the calender. Good luck, sounds like a neat opportunity for all involved.

Well Goldwinger maybe, but given that most people don't know what ephebophelia is but understand what pedophila is, clarity wins out. In addition, boy scouts bridge from Webelos as early as 10 years old, pre-adolescent for several years yet, so pedophilia is the appropriate term. For others following this post Ephebophila is attraction to adolescent children, pedophila is attraction to pre-adolescent children. The term is often defined (mistakenly) as narrowly defined to post-pubertal male children, both terms refer to attractions to either gender. I will yield the soap box -Steve

Beavah wisely said: "The worst evil of child molesters is that they mimic the proper behavior of good, caring people - and provide affection and attention that other adults are too standoffish to provide." I am both a scout leader and a school psychologist, so my perspective continues a little past the end of Source's story. The tragic truth that we are now widley aware of is that the adult that victimises the child begins with fairly innocuous behavior and continues to engage in more and more intimate and innapropriate behavior over time. The beginning behaviors that engage the child and gain their confidence are called "grooming" behaviors. The pedaphile slowly tests the waters and gains the child's confidence, slowly engaging in progressivly more intimate behavior. While I am fairly sure that the slap on my rear that my football coach gave me was not the beginning of grooming, it has been in many many situations. So the cultural crime of the pedaphile is as Beavah points out, a reluctance to show kids in our community ANY affection, lest we be accused, at the same time confusing everybody about what is right and what is wrong. So where are we left? Ironically with kids craving the very behaviors that might make them vulnerable to a pedaphile! Crazy right? My advise is this, 1) remember the bathing suit rule: If it is covered by a bathing suit you must avoid contact, physical or visual, if someone else violates this rule bring it to their attention immediately. 2) Always demand two deep leadership, it protects us and the kids. 3) Take youth protection training again and again, I do it once a year at least. 4) Lavish appropriate praise and affection on your scouts, model it for other leaders and even their parents. There is a lot you can do with a well placed "attaboy" or "great job". 5) if you hug that's ok, just don't linger; use the macho two pat hug and be done with it. If they cling that's ok fo a bit, just give clear body language that you are done. I hope this helps a little. Beavah is right, we can't abondon children by practicing overly defensive leadership. On the other hand we cannot afford to be ignorant of the evils that are out there. Reminiscence for days gone by aside, we all know now that this stuff happened when we were all scouts, but nobody talked about it then.

Lisabob's question is an excellent one, and one that I have considered myself. I have a little bit of info and opinion for ya'll to ponder. A disability is contextual, that is a condition is only disabling to the extent that it impedes a child's (in these cases) ability to progress in a given context. If a child has a reading disability, that impedes his progress in school, he is identified under the individuals with disabiltiies education act as a child with a learning disability and is provided with accomodations and remediation. Now when that same child joins scouts, reading becomes less a focus of his progress. Scouts is it's core an experiential program based on skills development in areas not directly related to reading. This contextual piece of the definition is very important because a child can be disabled during school and well-abled during a cub/boy scout meeting. What a gift that is! Many parents gravitate toward BSA because of this very issue. Given this, many disabilities are wider reaching and more debilitiating than the one I've mentioned. This is especially so with those involving conditions that are physically evident, say... something that impacts a child's ability to walk, talk, sense, or care for themselves. Even still, the BSA offers significant flexibility in requirements for those kids. As to prevalence of disabilities in scouting keep in mind that the best figures available indicate that about 12-15% of school aged children have educationally disabling conditions, somewhat higher in boys than in girls. I don't know the BSA figures, however my experiences lead me to agree with some of our other posters' hunches. There does appear to be a higher number of boys with educationally disabling conditions in scouts than in the general population. Lisabob hit it right on the head in my opinion. I think that BSA creates an ideal program to celebrate achievement in kids who have difficulty achieving in school. Semper may also have it right, understanding and welcoming leadership may increase membership for special needs boys. In fact, many school personnel suggest to parents that they enroll their child in scouts for these very reasons. This is especially so with children with social difficulties, such as children with Asperger's, children who have a very hard time reading and responding to social cues. I would suggest that if you have a child in your unit with a disabling condition, keep an eye on what they are capable of and succeding with and make sure that the child and parent knows it. Often the disabilty can become the focus for that child's adult caregivers and teachers and the parents do not hear enough about what is good in the child's ability set. For all the heat the the BSA may take regarding certain exclusionary policies, this is absolutely an area where We've got it right.

Um... I'm terribly embarrassed, but I have never heard of any such thing. There is no mention of a BSA Lion Cub program on the National site, save for the few references to the older rank. I am not sure that I uderstand what the program entails, if you have BSA support, if the council is calling a learning for life program "lion cubs", etc. I would not be opposed to a lion cub program except I would be concerned if it is coed. If it is coed, it would be very unfair to the girls who could have otherwise been Daisy scouts moving on to brownies, rather than getting kicked out of BSA until they are 14 and can join again in a Venturing Crew. And who is running it? Council or Pack? Where do the activity resources come from? what is the supervison structure? I will check out the 2005 thread for more information and maybe that will set me straight. -Yours in Scouting -Steve

Excellent question, one that I have thought of a number of times in the past. I don't have the definitive answer but here are my thoughts on the matter. Baden Powell became famous after a drawn out military siege of Mafeking in South Africa. He held out for 217 days with 2000 british Troops against Boer (Dutch Colonialists) forces 4 times the size of his troops. The British emerged triumphant from this engagement after reinforcements arrived from Zimbabwe (?). I delve into this brief history lesson to illustrate old BP's thinking as he started scouting. It was a combination of cunning, field skills, and morale boosting that allowed him to hold out for 9 months against overwhellming odds. BP had regular skits, stunts, and run-ons performed by and for the soldiers during the seige, allowing them to blow off steam, retain their wit and good humor, and keep from descending into dark thoughts and maudlin ruminations. You can see an excellent example of this tradition in the "Great Escape" (I think), when early in the film the Brits are working on a very elaborate stage production (in drag nonetheless) in the POW camp as Sinatra and the others discuss serious matters in the forground This (IMHO) is the origion of the scouting tradition of entertainment as a part of our program. I agree that it also happens to be great practice for kids to learn public speaking skills, to hone their intelligence as they work out the problems inherent in putting on a production, and to give them a sense of mastery. Nothing is as powerful as making a room full of people roar with laughter on purpose. It also builds leadership skills as boys negotiate their roles and activities within the group . Finally it builds a sense of shared experience and group cohesiveness as children are able to remenisce together about the events that were significant, for good or for ill. Needless to say, I think they are an important part of the program! Yours in Scouting, -Steve

Hmm... bad blood. Semper (as usual in my experience) has an excellent grasp of the situation and excellent advice. I do want to highlight that the CM is the one where the rubber hits the road in this situation. Overall program leadership and planning fall within his area of responsibility. He is the one who needs to decide how to arrange the ceremonies. My instinct says that he may be the only one who is "sucking it up" at this point and is willing to try to make it work as it is. The problem is there are too many chiefs in your area and not enough injuns (appologies for the outdated, useful, but politically incorrect native american reference). You are too close to the date to change course at this time without wrecking havoc. Ditto to Semper and to Randy. We in our Pack are blessed with leadership that gets along in our area. Two Main Troops recieve my boys at crossover. The Troops send scouts, and at least one leader to the B&G where the A of L is awarded and the boys are sent across a ceremonial bridge with great pomp and ceremony. We have a similar ceremony every year and I as Cubmaster plan it with input from Committee, Parents, Den Leaders and Cubs. The Troop leadership has never tried to plan it for us or has ever dictated the program in any way. Keep in mind the Arrow of Light is the "Eagle Scout" rank of Cub scouting. It is not just the last piece of the patch collection. The boys bridging over are earning the most difficult to earn rank in all of Cub Scouting, the only CS award allowed to be worn on the BS Uniform. It is a big deal and it is their right to be celebrated. The Bridging over is not the Troops' it is the boys' ceremony as they leave CS. Not a lot can be done this year except to make arrangements for next year's ceremony starting now. Don't let the program get highjacked again. I don't know if your husband is planning on continuing as CM after your son moves up, in some ways it does not make a difference. Next year's ceremony needs to be sketched out on paper in the documents he leaves behind as he leaves, or in his own notes for the future. This is if he is concerned about this as much as you are. If he is not concerned this whole thread doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Good luck! Yours in Scouting, -Steve

Thanks guys, yes Lisabob we have some historic trails in this region and have done 'em, also the Outdoor activity award (they think it looks sharp!). Yup Kaji, I was a Boy Scout when we earned belt loops for hiking, etc. as part of the advancement process. I see your point SemperParatus about the competitive nature of sports, however, competition is not highlighted in earning the loops and there are other, noncompetitive sports listed like swimming, skating, rollerskating, snow sports, physical fitness, bb gun shooting, archery, and fishing. While each of these can be turned into competitive events, they are not for the purpose of the loop. There are competitive hiking events, but 100 mile cross country endurance races are probably not listed in G2SS for Bear Dens! And his point remains a good one, hiking is a pretty reasonable activity for a scout to want to engage in and be recognized for. His going on hikes both in Den and as Family has led him to want to earn a loop for it, just the same way he earned his baseball loop.

My son turned to me one day after considering the belt loops festooning his cub belt announced to me that he wanted to get his hiking belt loop next. He then asked me what he had to do. I believe he guessed something about, mm... walking in the woods on a trail. I searched my memory for the list of loops available and I was amazed at what he had uncovered. THERE ISN'T ONE!!! The Cub Scouts does not have a hiking belt loop. Well I told him and looked at me a little funny, just checking to see if I was pulling his leg (who me?) and I confessed that as bizzare as it may seem there isn't a hiking belt loop available. There are belt loops for table tennis, vollyball, badminten and marbles but not for HIKING!? Well, I told him I would look into it and maybe write a letter or two. So... help me right this injustice! Does anybody have an idea how we can get this to become a reality? Who do I contact at the national level? Is there a committee for this sort of thing (Stupid question that!), who is the go-to guy for sports belt loop recognition? This is a no brainer and I would really like for my son to see it happen before he bridges over to Boy Scouts in 2 years. Yours in Scouting; -Steve

For me the funny thing is, reading his indignant rant about the cowardly act (paraphrasing) of failing to put identifying information on your profile reminded me that I had wanted to do that for a while but hadn't gotten around to it. Well I did it, so feel free to look me up... if you like what I have to say that is! LOL ;-)

The previous thread about when to salute the flag reminds me of a recent and heartwarming experience that I had. Our Pack has just gone through it's Blue and Gold Dinner, and a wonderful time was had by all. While cleaning up at one point, there was a lot of activity at the front of the gym where the flags were posted. At one point a small child knocked over a gym pad that careened into the US flag. My back was to it at the time, but out of the corner of my eye I saw the flag teeter and begin it's descent to the floor. Even though it was in a heavy flag base, it was on it's way! I began to turn around, knowing that I would probobly not be able to salvage it when I heard the voice of one of the WEBELOS who had just bridged over. This young lad had had a hard time of it emotionally over the several years that he had been a cub scout. He was not on the honor roll, didn't excel at sports, and did not seem to have too many friends. He kept showing up for meetings though. Anyway, I heard him yell "save the flag" just as I turned to see him move like a flash of lightning toward the downward accelerating flag. He scooped it up gracefully before it ended up nose down on the canvas and saved it's honor. Not even the gold tassel brushed the gym's maple floor. He cheerfully explained to the child that you must be careful about such things and, like William Boyce's guide in the fog, he was off to modestly go about his business. I couldn't have been prouder than at that moment. It demonstrated to me the power in this great movement called scouting.