Backwoods

By the way, the above advice was directed toward your friend, or anyone who is dealing with a similar situation.

Wow, what a hard serious struggle to undertake as someone who obviously cares deeply about youth. What a horrible and desperate feeling for the lad to feel he only had one choice. I would advise a few key things, these things coming from my training as a psychologist and (previously) a crisis hotline director: 1) Talk clearly and openly about your concern about him with both he and his parent. 2) Elicit a "safety contract" from him. He must promise out loud that if he feels that hopeless again he will call you, or his counselor, or his mother and let them know. 3) Make sure he is in treatment, not just taking pills from the local doctor. 4) Help him come up with a plan to keep up his grades and still be the super-scout he enjoys being. 5) keep an eye on him, suicides often occur when people appear to be getting better (the end is in sight phenomenon) 6) Make sure you share the above burden with your other leaders and, if possible, school staff. We are often concerned that paying too much attention to the problem, or blowing it out of proportion will foster negative, dramatic, behavior. We also worry that the child is blowing their own problems out of proportion, and we fear encouraging them. Know this: in these cases it is absolutely OK to err on the side of overprotection, consider the alternative. I too will have you all in my prayers. Feel free to contact me off-thread if you have any questions for me.

Oh... and Dick Morris? he is a political hack, spin-doctor or strategist, take your pick of titles. He's not an economist, accountant, or even particularly gifted with numbers. Be careful where you get your facts!

Well, what a dust-up! I think this is a great example of the hidden diversity in this legion of scout leaders that is often depicted as monolithic and blindly conservative. The debate so far has not descended into ad hominim attacks, which is great, but it has steered off topic, which is not. Obama-proof? thats a silly repetition of Cramer's nonsense (who not too long ago extolled the virtues of some now defunct companies like Lehman Brothers). But, I'll play ball. I, like most of the the country, will NOT be making more than 250,000 or even 200,000 dollars this year, I will continue to buy American, I will continue to volunteer in my community, and I will continue to patriotically support my country and its elected officials and citizens. I have a geothermal heating sytem in my house and have a truck that runs on fryer oil. I reduce, re-use and recycle. If I am asked to do or spend more so that we all can be better off, I will do so, so that we all can remain proud and strong and hopeful. This is the greatest country that has ever graced the face of this good green Earth, and it does not need knuckleheads (ok now I've gone ad hominim) tearing away at our public officials in order to preserve their own portion of the American dream, while others see it slip away. The spending has been going on for a good long time, and must be paid for. So... my version of Obama-proofing is to make sure I am out in front leading, not in the rear fretting.

by the way,are there OKPIK courses offered in the Northeast?

Well, I'd say that depends on your training and equipment. Most scouts have the general equipment to stay comfy down to 20 degrees, below that and you will need more than layers and and your Wal Mart bag. I'm in upstate New York, we Troop camped at a council event in October and the temperature went into the teens the first night. We all slept soundly. Thats about as low as we would go without some significant preparation and serious gear review. Its nice to know how to treat hypothermia and frostbite, but not to HAVE to treat them! I concur with the others, parents get to decide if the kids go, however, leaders have to decide if the Troop goes.

They can participate at a council sponsored event (Day camp, scout camp, or other event) if they are registered with the BSA. This would include Learning for Life members, making it possible and relatively easy for the female sibs to be a part of the activity.

Oh... so it is for an Cell phone/Ipod/MP3/thingee thing thing. Thats great, just great. Just one more argument when we give the "no electronic devices at camp" speech.

Wow. 8 uniforms! yikes, thats a lot of scouterphernalia! I bridged over into Boy Scouts in 1980, just when the DeLarenta Uniform change was made. I was lucky enough to get a hand-me-down olive uniform with the fold down pockets, collarless shirt, and envelope hat. I showed up at a meeting and... was totally embarrassed! Well, I got over it rapidly, but it put a small dent in me. Lucky for today's lads, the change is really minor. If the troop springs for epaulets and numbers, the kids can pretty much use whatever shirt they end up with. They will be tan, and will have collars and pockets, just not the cigarette pocket on the sleeve! Really, what is that for anyway? Compass? Ipod? flint and steel? Anybody have the official line on the pocket that will get sewn shut with the position patch on the left sleeve?

Well, this post has been thoroughly responded to! Beavah, Lisabob, Twocubdad, Evmori, John in KC, SR540 Beaver, and OGE have all weighed in. SeaGull99 has certainly gotten her money's worth! As the thread has sort of concluded if not stopped, SeaGull99's son has moved on to a new troop and no longer has to deal with the old troop's leadership, I wonder if size has contributed to the problem. When I read that the Troop limits who goes on the campouts, I was like many of you kind folks, flabbergasted. Now there is a word I don't get to write much, but I think you all agree that it is appropriate here. It seems to me that the Scoutmaster has begun to succumb to the dark side of supply and demand. If his troop had 10 boys, I am sure that he would be a little more facilitative of their progress. As it is, he can be fairly fickle with his demands on them. SeaGull99, when I mentioned your son's attendence as a factor earlier, I really wasn't trying to impugn your son's character, I was trying to point out that there appears to be some other expectations that were not made very clear to your boy. He did not go to the meeting, because he was not going to the campout, because he was not one of the first 20-25 to sign up. The scoutmaster could very well value those 20-25 boys more than the ones who are slow to sign up. In his secret scoutmasters handbook (you know, the one he wrote on his own and keeps in his head), your son may not fit the mold he would like for a scout in "his" troop, and therefore, he pressures him slowly into leaving by denying him advancement, catching him "being bad" and refusing to give him information or assistance. I have seen this sort of leadership behavior in all kinds of units before, but particularly in large Troops. These Troops end up with a two-tiered membership, retaining the "A-list" scouts, and shedding the "B-listers" as they go along. So, I am wondering what some of the wise scouters out there think of the idea that sometimes a Troop can be dangerously large? Do ya'll believe that there is a danger in a Troop being over a certain size, or is it just about bad adult leadership? Maybe this is a new thread, maybe there is already a posting on this notion, I'm not sure.

I read the book when it first came out. I took it as a major indictment of modern parenting and society's relegation of children to the shelf. I recommend it to anybody I can who works with children. It brought back a great deal of memories, and some dreams I had let go of. He mentions "Shelters, Shacks, and Shanties" by Daniel Beard, a book I knew of as a child, but had no access to. Well, he reminded me of it and I was able to find a copy on the internet. It is chock-a-block full of gritty basic fort construction techniques that I happily shared with my son. But I digress... It is important to me as a father, and youth volunteer, that we pay more attention to how we are choking the life out of our children with over-scheduled, under-creative activities. Give me a walk in the woods any day.

Well... this is some post. As a psychologist I like to look at the "thing behind the thing", it really doesnt take much training, but it does take some interest and honesty. It seems like you have two forces at work here; the scoutmaster's needs and your son's/your needs. The scoutmaster seems to value his control of the process of the Troop and the boy's behavior. You seem to value much the same for your son. Your boy, I am assuming would like to please both of you while having a good time. Some things you said caused me to prick up my ears. "Last night the troop had a planning meeting for a camp out scheduled for this weekend. We weren't there because my son is not attending this camp out..." This thread started with you discussing a meeting that your son missed with the flu. I wonder if your expectations and your son's expectations match the leaders' expectations? Don't get me wrong, from what you report the SM is not responding appropriately, but he is acting out because your son missed a meeting. How many does he miss? what is the expectation? In our Troop the meeting is the meeting, regardless of who is attending the weekend outing, all are expected, indeed all should want to be there. In the end none of the advice is likely to change the SM. You have three choices, wait patiently and follow his lead, move to a different unit, or accumulate power and influence and try to oust him as Scoutmaster. Personaly I think the last one is the worst option, and still requires the first option, AND may not work anyway. Your son has some time, if this turns into a long term freeze-out, look for another unit. In the meantime he has merit badges to work on. Good luck.

Wow the things we navigate to get some boys into the outdoors and help them develop some positive personal attributes! DeanRx sure seems to stir the pot. The what ifs are really interesting to me in light of the repeated posts quoting G2SS and other rules and regs. They make pretty clear the types of behavior that is intolerable. The notion of the leader too fat to lead would, in my experience, lead to our council losing the majority of its most experienced volunteers. I think that the more interesting question is HOW you deal with behavior that is unnacceptable, or "intolerable". If it was easy, I don't think the forum would be so devoted to discussing all the possible sins against scouting. The real issue is similar whether its a scouting unit, or a professional setting; how to confront the one who has stepped outside the circle of acceptable behavior. When they are way outside of the norm, its easy to notice isn't it? The scout executive who gets drunk and vomits on the honoree for instance. But even then, who steps forward and says Jim, your behavior is not acceptable and we are driving you home... etc.? I don't have good answers for this thread, but I do enjoy struggling with the questions, I like Beavah's way of framing the troubled adult as taking valuable resources away from the unit. After all, I've only got one hour a week, I want to give it to the kids!

This is a fairly common dillemma in my brief experience. I know many leaders who hold dual positions in their cub unit. I myself was my son's Tiger Den Leader and Cubmaster. I think that in all actuality my son liked me being CM better than Den Leader. It wasn't that he didn't enjoy den meetings, quite the contrary, he just like the fact that I was the big cheese. DYB-Mike gave the best advice I think, that being what do you want to do. The worst case scenario involves you getting involved over your head and burning out, making the experience a net negative for your son. In the end it is not ACM or TDL that you are being recruited for, it is Cubmaster, don't lose track of that. I am willing to bet that the 18 months will shrink to a year or less if you step up. The biggest question you need to ask is how much support would you have in the position, is the unit functioning well? Is there an active and vital committee? If so, then the CM gets to focus on programming only and the Committee makes sure there are enough paper plates for the blue and gold dinner. If the CM has created a one-man show, you should be a bit wary of stepping into the line of fire. For me, I had a great committee, which allowed me to be the dancing bear on stage. We had successful and vital programming and miles of smiles. The added planning and responsibility was well worth it to me. As it turns out my son had a great time and bridged into Boy Scouts this past February. I have eased back into an assistant scoutmaster position in the Troop, which is a LOT less work. GOOD LUCK. Let us know what you decide!

interesting question, good opportunity. As the father of multiple scouts, girl and boy, one thing that I have noticed in both organizations is the more involved the scout is in planning, the more fun they have. This goes equally for the successes and the mistakes. If I were the leader of your Troop, I would start by asking them what they would like to get out of a year of Girl Scouting. Of course I would have a coouple of ideas myself ready for the suggesting! Each of the girls may have some interesting ideas to offer for service or activity. You might be surprised at what they come up with. Even if they come up with "girly" things that you might want to steer away from, remember it is their Troop. I would sit down at your next meeting with a calender and some goals. Look at the advancement needs (bronze), and your own desires along with their ideas and mark up the calender. Good luck, sounds like a neat opportunity for all involved.