mdsummer45

"Rather than argue da facts, your son probably should just have said "that was four years ago, I apologized at the time, and I've learned a lot and grown a lot since then." Nothing shows maturity like agreeing and then putting in context. Nothing shows immaturity like arguing trivial facts" Beavah: He did not argue..if I gave that impression my error. He owned everything and then said here is what I learned from that situation....all of the comittee member commented on how thoughtful, prepared, polite he was for the meeting.

NeiLup If my comments offended you I apologize. I was only attempting to clarify my posting. It appeared that what I was attepting to say was not clear. I appreciate everyones posting, you all certainly do not have to take the time out of your day to deal with my problems but i am greatful that you all have chosen to do so.

NeiLup: Did you reallly read my post....I said I understood about his mother...We did not know about that situation until AFTER we asked him when he thought he would be getting back to us. We both expressed our concern ..face to face..told him we understood his situation...that is why I made the suggestion in my post that perhaps he need to ask someone else to write the response..he has a dying mother..put her first. Ask the Advancement Chairman to reply in his place. That is what I said. My son thanked each committee member personally last night and shook each persons hand and told them thank you for coming out tonight.

Well, they say patience is a virtue...so I must be a very virtuous person. Just called the DD and he apologize that he could not talk longer to me but he had a meeting to chair, he agreed that the time frame is strange but to give the benifit of the doubt and if we did not hear anything by Monday or Tuesday at the lastest to call him back and we will proceed from there. He asked if the committee realized there was a time crunch..I said yes, I told the CC that my son has one month until he turns 18. I also discovered that the DD had spoken with the SM and told him that the troop could not hold up sending out the LOR's. That is why my son suddenly received an email with a postion change reguarding the mailing of the LOR requests. Now I know the Troop realizes we are going to follow through with this to the end.

The SM refused to sign period. We are waiting for the decision from the committee as to whether or not they are going to sign. (That was the whole purpose of the meeting last night.)

WOW John in KC..we posted over each other...lol

Well, it was a very interesting night. We still do not have any resolution to this situation. The whole thing lasted a little over 1.5 hours. The CC told us we could go and that the committee would discuss things and hopefully come to a decision tonight but that he could not promise that that would happen. When my son asked him when my son would be hearing from the CC, the reply was well, I'm not sure I hope to have something to you soon. I pressed the CC and and sayed "will you have something to my son by Monday", the CC reply was " Well it depends, my mom is in the hospital and we may have to take her off life support"...Now , I get it...I'm not a heartless or unfeeling person...and I do feel for the man (even if he is well into his 60's, your mom is your mom no matter how old you are)but if that big of a situation is occuring in your life, I would think you would be able to ask some other committee member..perhaps the TAC to prepare the reply. Just my opinion. The SM came , gave his statement, answered a few questions(some of which he clearly had trouble answering) and left stating that he had another meeting to go to. My son spoke and presented his statement. My son also asked to address some of the points in the SM statement..my son owned all of the situations that the SM had mentioned but said to the committee..." I'm not calling Mr SM a liar but what Mr SM said is not exactly what happened". My son went on to explain each situation. Mr SM never witnessed any of these situation first hand. Two were relayed to him by the same ASM (this ASM was told by someone else that they heard my son(he was in 9th grade at the time) saying a curse word and slamming his books on the grass after school..ASM was not there when it happened and is taking the word of his daughter who said she hear it)and the incident that occured this past Oct. which I have mentioned in my earlier posts. Another incident that was brought up by the SM was about how his first Eagle Service project fell apart(occurred when my son was in 10th grade but the SM did give him credit for starting and completing a 2nd project)) and the last of the 4 situations also occured when my son was in 9th grade..he was at a district type camping event and he was accused by the SM of fighting with another scout..the true story that my son relayed to the committee was that another scout threatened him with a walking stick poking and pretending to hit my son, my son was defending himself by yelling at the scout and finally my son ran to the leaders tent in tears to find someone to help him. Again, the SM did not personally witness this event, the SM said that another leader trying to calm the situation ask Mr SM if my son was in his troop. That leader had the boys apology to each other and the event went on. How strange that the SM sees this incident as my son fighting. My son was not the one with the stick . He was protecting himself with his voice. Also if is was such a memorable event to the SM why was last night the first time I had heard about the incident???? Can't really say what the out come will be..they asked my son questions and I felt he answered them clearly. They did ask if he had his completed Eagle application and Goals and Ambition statement (A BIG, HUGH THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU WHO GAVE US THAT GUIDANCE!!!!!!) and the Eagle Advisor took them from my son. So the Troop has all the completed paperwork. One last point, and I think it will show some of you out there who have doubted me regarding my postings about this SM..This SM went so far as to get on his own son's Facebook accout to check out my sons Facebook page. There was a posting that the kids send to each other a checklist questionnaire stating check off any of the things you have done as a teenager...well my son check off a couple of not so nice things, nothing criminal just teenage thing...Well, I was aboslutely stunned that the SM would sink to such a low level just to justify himself and his refusal to sign off onn my son. To the committees credit they did ask the SM if he had ever done that for anyother Eagle Canidate.. and the SM said No..but attempted to justify what he had doneby saying it was something he thought he had to do in this case. Oh, the SM also felt the need to mention me in his statement and attempted to put words in my mouth as he relayed the cursing incident (as stated about) what the SM accused me of saying never happened..I never said it. I was part of the conversation, I was there the SM was not. So my plan today is to call the DD and give him an update , as he requested and ask him for further guidance. Also, both my son and I were polite, and respectfully...which is not difficult for either of us because it is who we are, it is our nature. And the drama continues.....:^)

Beavah Perhaps this SM needs to take a step back and re access his "plate". His son is out of scouts, other people would like to be SM (but this man will not budge), he hold 3 positions at the district level plus a job which requires him to travel. Just maybe he has his hands in too many pots. FYI...I am not the only parent who has had issues with this SM, but I am the only one whose son is at the point of completion of all the requirements for Eagle. "Just ordinary folks with good enough intentions to spend a lot of their time running scouting for kids. Ordinary folks who aren't perfect." You are absolutely correct...but you need to take it one step further... No one is perfect...even an Eagle Scout.

Unfortunately the committe mtg had to be rescheduled because the SM told the CC he would out of town on business until Wednesday. The meeting has now been scheduled for this Thursday. Although we were initial told that the LOR requests would not be sent out to the individuals my son had given, we have since been told that they changed their minds and have mailed the LOR requsts. Thanks to all for your good thoughts. Will post again Friday morning.

twocubdad; Wish my boys had you as their SM. I like your style.

Thank you :^)

jr56... Thank you for relaying your experience. My SM is out to flex his muscle. I am sure we will be pursuing this at the District level and all will turn out positively at that time. Thanks again John-in-KC Called the area council this morning and my sons Scoutnet info was promptly faxed to me. He has contacted all of his references and they are awaiting the appropriate form from the troop(wishful thinking on my part) or the DAC requesting their reference letters. His application is complete with all appropriate dates and he is working on his "Goals and Ambition" statement (along with his written presentation for the committee mtg next Monday night)so he can move directly into the appeal process without any hesitations. Sound good????

Thanks for the guidance scoutldr. NealOnWheels: You all have taught me well, I am becoming educated quite quickly. After I read the post from scoutldr, I promptly wrote on my To Do List: Call Council Monday to get copy of sons ScoutNet record. You all are great teachers!! Your student is learning.

Thank you for your concise reply. I, too, feel that it will not matter what my son says to the committee,the cast has been set. I just am going to advise my son to give concrete examples of how my son feels he demonstrates the Scout Spirit and Scout Law in his EVERYDAY (and that is the operative word) life. As our cities former NFL coach would say at his weekly conferences..."It is what it is". Time for me to stop obsessing about this.. LOL

Hey Everyone I'm trying to get a consensus here: does it really matter if the SM refuses to sign requirements in the Boy Scout Handbook, are those signatures in those little boxes important OR should we just be focusing on the SM refusing to sign the Eagle rank application. I'm attempting to guide my son in his preparation of the statement he will be presenting to the troop committee. I want to know if he should be stating that he is requesting the signature of the SM for requirements #2(scout spirit) and #6 (SM conference) in the Boy Scout Handbook OR should he just state that he is requesting that the SM conduct a SM conference (requirement #6) and request the SM signature under Unit Approval on the Eagle Rank application..Stated another way..does the handbook have to have all the boxes signed/dated BEFORE the application can be filled out?

I need some help interpreting something from the ACP&P #33088(I now am a proud owner of this booklet) pg 31 The 12 Steps from Life to Eagle...item #1 states: In order to advance to the rank of Eagle, while a Life scout, a candidate must complete all the requirements of: active tenure scout spirit any remaining merit badges positions of responsibility planning, developing,& providing leadership to others in a service project the SM conference Okay here is my question...are they referring to the requirements that are listed in the Boy Scout Handbook or the requirements that are listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application? In his Boy Scout Handbook all of the requirements are signed off except scout spirit and SM conference...these are the ones the SM is refusing to sign off on the ones in the book. The Eagle Scout Rank Application only requires a date for the SM conference and for 'demonstrates scout spirit in your everyday life' the application requires an outside of scouts list of people. Does my son NEED to have the SM sign off on the scout spirit section located in the book...the ACP&P does not make it clear...or at least it is not clear to me.

John in KC.. I was half joking about my son displaying the copy. I think it would make my son look like a smart-aleck. However, I fully plan on having a copy in MY hand. thanks again

Oh ..one more thing....Get a copy of the ACP&P 33088 and have my son walk in with the copy in his hand and use the booklet as he talks to support his comment papers with the front of the booklet facing the CC. LOL

Okay...Thanks folks...Plan of action: 1. Calling to obtain my sons records at the council level. 2. Complete Eagle Rank Application: Requirements #1. Date of Life BOR (6-29-06-signed off by SM in handbook) #2. List of references (done) #3. Merit Badges ( he has all cards in his possession...done, 3-25-09-signed off by troop AC in handbook) #4. Actively Served in POR for period of 6 mos or more ( 01-29-07..SM was even the one who signed off on this in my sons handbook) #5. Eagle Service Project( Done, all necessary signatures on approval and completion pages) #6 SM conference and a written summary of my sons ambitions, life purpose and positions held outside of scouts that demonstrate leadership skills. Include honors and awards. (SM conference--SM is refusing...written summary--currently being completed) Have advised my son to keep the focus of his comments at the committee meeting to the fact that he has successfully completed all requirements listed on the application. Anything else...he has met all the requirements and has committed no crimes...

I really feel the need to reply to BrentAllens post. Therein lies the problem....my son does not know EXACTLY what he has done to cross this SM. All that has been told is that "my perception(exact word)is that you do not understand the Scout Spirit ..Scout law." No examples or specific events have ever been given to my son as to why the SM has this perception. My son has no criminal record, does not do drugs and does not drink( no I am not a blind parent who thinks their child is perfect..but we have a good line of communication.) He has never had any issues at school...he is an honor student. top 7% of his class, 4 honor societies, vice president of 2 of them, is a tutor for GT and AP students in certain subjects, has the trust and respect of the school administration to work openly on the schools web site and other sensitive work. My son has sent this SM emails asking for a written reason as to why the SM is refusing to sign off on the SM conference. "So that I may have a clearer understanding of your position, I am requesting a written statement from you listing the reasons that you feel that you can not sign off on these requirements. I would like to have this statement prior to the troop committee meeting so that I can address all of your concerns in a thoughtful manner." This is the reply my son received for the SM: "If I understand the current policy correctly, I'm required by the BSA to putting my thoughts and concerns in writing and to provide the committee explanation for my course of action. That written statement will be available to you at that meeting. I assume at that time the two documents (Nov 2008 letter and addressing committee) and your input from the meeting will be forward to the District for their records." Is this SM telling my son in a veil way that this special committee mtg is only for show and that my son does not have a chance with them....or...are all troop meeting records forwarded to the District. If the committee overturn the SM decision why would the documents need to go to the District level at all? (Any thoughts from any of you would be appreciated...) Also my son had requested another copy of the November 2008 letter and the SM is refusing to give him another copy prior to the meeting. The SM asked my son what happened to the original copy..did he lose it..my son said no, I gave it to my mom for her to review and she threw it away. Okay, my fault, I threw it away, what is the BIG deal here give the kid a copy of something you already gave him...why is the SM refusing to do this.... my opinion....PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY!!!!!!!

hey all...we are on the right road... we have spoken to our DD and he knew all about my sons issue even before I gave him my name. They are already talking about this issue at the district level. He gave us specific things to do before the meeting and after the meeting should the decision of the committee not be in my sons favor. Additionally,the DD told us to call him Tuesday morning to let him know the out come of the meeting. I also got the impression while talking to the DD that the SM is not the "golden boy" that I thought he was. I feel so much better after speaking with him. My son is prepared. I'll keep you all posted as to how things turn out and if I need more support I know I can turn to all of you. You've been wonderful!!!!!! I'll continue to check in to see if there are any posts but I need to let go of this for awhile.

One other thing...After thinking about this so much for the past few days it has occurred to me that the SM is really refusing to sign off on #2 requiremnt...demonstrates the Scout Oath and Scout law in everyday life. In our troop that requirement is always signed off on by the SM at the SM conference. How does he know whether or not my son lives the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his EVERYDAY life...the SM only sees him once a week for 1.5hrs and perhaps once a month on a weekend trip. What about the other 166.5 hrs in the week...yet the SM feels he can make a judgment of my sons character..I do not understand that at all.

Thanks all--When I spoke with the DAC he told me he was going to contact the troops advancement chairman and the troops Eagle advisor to see what was going on. The DAC sounded like an older man (perhaps retired, I called at 9:30a) I asked if he had an email address so my son could contact him if neccessary. He said don't have one ..don't own a computer...I laughed!!! He told me that the first step was for the troop to hold this mtg and then he would get involved if need be..he muttered something like..if the committee turns him down then I'll have to start this whole process..in a tone of ...man I don't want to go there...that is when the DAC told me he was going to contact the troop AC and see what was going on. Sounds like the DAC might take the back road to encourage the committe to vote in favor of my son.. (Okay, maybe just a mom's wishful thinking :^))

I will call the DAC today and get him up to speed on my sons situation. Since the mtg does not start until 7:30p it may be too late in the evening for my son to call the DAC at the close of the mtg((should things not go in his favor). Instead, my son is going to have a letter prepare to hand to the CC thanking them for holding the mtg and informing them that he has already been in contact with MR DAC who told him to contact him after the mtg should my son need to begin the appeal process. The letter will state that my son will be contacting DAC first thing in the morning to begin the process. Also my son will request that the CC provide him, in writing within 3 days of this letter, the reason for the committees decision and in the future provide my son with all necessary documents pertaining to my sons attendance , leadership positions, merit badges etc(anything that my son may need ) also within 3 days of my sons request for such material.

My son just received this email from the CC: "I am calling the Special Committee Meeting for Monday, April 13th, at 7:30 PM, at XYZ . The meeting is being called for the express purpose of discussing whether or not the Committee should overturn the Scoutmaster's decision, recommend you for Eagle, and approve scheduling an Eagle Board of review. If you would like, your parents can attend as observers. Everyone but troop committee members will be asked to leave after all presentations have been made so that the committee can deliberate and render a decision. Also, for information purposes, since at this point it has not been determined that you have completed all of the Eagle requirements, Mr. Eagle Advisor has been instructed to not mail your letters of recommendation pending the outcome of the Special Committee Meeting." Okay, should this not turn out in my son favor, he should( or can I ?)tell them at that time that he is requesting that the committees decision be given to him in writing stating the reasons he has been denied and he should inform the CC that he will be starting an appeal? Does this CC's email sound like the troop is follow procedure? Thanks