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MattR

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Everything posted by MattR

  1. Or maybe, Stosh, they're just very organized and motivated until they get their eagle. I have a 14 year old eagle scout, one of maybe 4 in the history of the troop, that really was good until he got eagle. It's not that he's bored because there's nothing to do, it's that nobody is holding anything over him to motivate him. Nobody is saying I bet you can't do this. Getting Eagle was the challenge, and there was nothing he did wrong. There was no way I could have stopped him and yet I knew this would happen. This is why I think FCFY is a total crock. I have a group of 15-17 year old troop guides that are learning so much more than this scout, only because they are slower at getting to the leadership positions. Their laziness is serving them well. When they're young they're motivated by bling. As they get older they get motivated by deeper things. Some day this scout will mature and figure it all out.
  2. Oy. Your wife seems to have nailed this on the head. Before anyone worries about fixing problems related to boy led, the issue of adult led needs to be solved, and I don't mean the adults should lead the troop. I mean the adults need their own leadership. The asm that yelled at the nsp patrol threatening to wake them up at 4am ... priceless. Adults are angry at each other. Everyone wants to go through the SM, but he's not around? I can certainly believe the adults are frustrated. After 7 pages I'm not sure what all the issues are but the adults sound like a bad patrol with 30 extra years of birthday candles. They really don't have a clear view of what needs to be done and they all have their own ideas. Not much communication is going on. I hate to say this but assigning one adult per patrol won't fix any of this. So, I agree with the new parent that said meet another nite and get a consistent message for the boys. What that message is is another story. Some things that it depends on are how strong is the SPL? Is he good enough to help the PLs do their job? If he said he'd give the nsp another week to get a menu together but doesn't plan on following up on that then he's just kicking the can down the road. If he plans to call the troop guides up to find out what went wrong then he's great. I'm not sure the TG being ignored by his patrol will be solved by giving him authority to sign off on advancement. Sure, you want a confident TG, but it seems to me the thing that's missing is understanding what teamwork is about. It could also be that one troop guide is not enough for the scouts in that NSP. Maybe he needs help. I use two per patrol. There's lots of showing the scouts what to do and two can do a much better job. There's also more opportunity for the TGs to screw around with the scouts. Respect is not just about the power of signing off requirements, it's also about creating a relationship. Playing with the younger scouts will do a lot to let them know that there's a time to have fun and a time to be serious and that the TG can be trusted to ensure the new scouts are getting what they want. The keyword here is trust. The young scouts trust the TG. The TG trusts the adults will back him and train him. The adults trust the TG to do his job.
  3. So why isn't thou shall not do for a scout what he can do for himself in the training? It's concise.
  4. Thanks for joining us tatung. There is a troop like this in my town. Most scouts don't know what patrol they're in. Someone tried to change it and it just made for a bloody mess. Said person eventually left. In all honesty, you should probably stop being an asm. You'll just get mad. If the cc is a "puppet" then you're already angry. That will rub off on your son. You mentioned that the SPL often introduces the SM as a guest speaker. Do the scouts honestly like that? I can talk for maybe a minute. If it's a really great story I can have 3 or 4. I'm curious as to how patrols work in this troop. Do they ever do anything on their own? Pick their own menus? Pick their own campsites? Have their own meetings? Pick their own patrols? Pick their own skits for campfires? One person you didn't mention is your son. What does he think about the troop? If he's having fun and has friends it might be hard to get him to leave. I'm not sure how old he is but if he's starting to think about leadership maybe he would like more say in what's going on? Another issue is whether or not there is a troop nearby that is more boy led but still has a reasonable program.
  5. Thanks for joining us. To answer your first question, 1 has to join another patrol, 2 I leave to their choice, 3 or more they should cook as a patrol. The question you didn't ask is why are only 5 of 30 scouts active? This is a symptom of bigger problems. It could be growing pains. What worked with 5 scouts won't work with 30. The 5 might feel like things have changed from what they like. 5 scouts is barely a patrol whereas 30 is maybe 4 patrols. 4 patrols with only 10 scouts showing up on a good day is not conducive to patrol spirit. I'm reading tea leaves here but this is what I'd try. The older scouts drive the enthusiasm. Talk to them. You can't win them all over but half would be really great. You need their help. Ask them for their opinions. Give them some freedom to come up with ideas to crank up the enthusiasm. Once you have half the older scouts enthusiastic the younger scouts will start following. If the older scouts are dead weight then get them out of the way and work with the younger scouts.
  6. New term, adult creep. One thing I don't like about all the training is that they never really describe what should not be done. They say what should be done, and that's important, but the counter example would make it so much clearer. Yes, the scouts should come up with ideas and the adults should support them, but there are plenty of things the adults should not do in this process. By not making this explicit the boundary between the Scout's decisions and adult's get's fuzzy and the adults slowly squeaze in and the scouts slowly squeaze out. That's adult creep. In this case it's more like national creep but sentinel's reference is more committee creep.
  7. Until the adult crosses the line of telling the scouts they're wrong, maybe you just let him make a fool of himself. Done the right way, talking to older scouts about taboo subjects can be good. Most scouts don't have an opinion but those that do rarely get a chance to talk to an adult about them. They can learn about being civil under thorny conditions. I try to keep my biases out, play a bit of devil's advocate to keep them engaged, and ask a lot of questions. But, you had a thumper. So next time you're around the scouts when it's quiet, why not ask them what they thought?
  8. I've done that before. I was scout age and not so far from your location (Scotland, but it's all relative). Rather than a motor on the plane there was a motor on the ground, on the edge of a cliff. Quite a memory as we flew over the abyss.
  9. I could understand if they were using squirt guns but this doesn't make sense. I looked at the website and between all the awards, all the youth groups showing it, scoutreach, and BSA's desire to control the conversation, I'd think this would be a slam dunk. I also noticed that a PG version was made for someone that requested a toned down version.
  10. The trailer looks like it would be great advertisement for scouts. I wonder why it's not for sale at the scout stuff website.
  11. MattR

    You win.

    Well played, @@Stosh, you SOB Something didn't make sense but I sure couldn't connect the dots.
  12. Well I guess another form of scout crack is to get @@packsaddle to come out of hibernation. The problem with all forums is they are public and disagreeing with someone in public gets people defensive. Disagreeing in private is much less confrontational. That's how we treat scouts. Pack, I meant to imply that everyone can be a part of this and that it is an easier decision for the moderators. If someone disagrees with what you tell them in private, so what. If they agree they'll probably make it right. So, packsaddle, take a bite. Heeereee little burrow, come on buddy. You can do it....
  13. I suppose a scout should be treated the same way about his uniform as about his actions. I want scouts to act and look like scouts. I also realize they'll slip and make mistakes. My scouts are all a work in progress so for that reason I don't worry about uniforms being perfect. On the other hand, a scout that refuses to wear a uniform likely does not act much like a scout (unless he can't afford it, but that's a problem I'll solve). For this reason I will not just let them do as they want regarding their uniform just as I won't let them act in an unscout like manner. The challenge is the right amount of consistent, gentle pressure. Our gentle pressure consists of: We require green pants but not official scout pants. I will pull aside a scout that consistently does not wear a uniform and ask him why. I will comment to scouts if their patches are completely out of date - just to let him know I see it. We do require a scout to wear his uniform at a SMC for rank, or bor. When we take a picture of the troop we ask all scouts that are not wearing a full uniform to not stand in front. During an indoor flag ceremony we ask all scouts to remove their jackets as well as non-scout hats, and they can put them back on afterward. We strongly suggest scouts wear their scout shirts when we travel or do service projects so people know scouts is still around. We also tell everyone if they can't afford a uniform we'll find them one. In other words, the scouts know they should wear a uniform, they can get a uniform, and we understand when they slip. Most importantly, when a scout that has had problems with his uniform suddenly shows up with everything right, I'll complement him on how sharp he looks, just as I try to complement every scout that does a better job helping out.
  14. I don't think removing I&P will help, it will just overflow elsewhere. Isn't that the reason why I&P was formed? Trying to remove dissent or arguments will gut this forum. There's a good way to argue and a bad way to argue. The good way is when everyone is trying to come to an agreement, even if it is to disagree. Lurking scouts should see that. I'm all for it. Bad arguments are when it becomes a zero sum game. If there were a way for the moderators to help with that I'd say absolutely. I'm just not sure what that might be. What seems to work really well is when someone realizes they crossed a line and apologize. Personal messages could also help. Even if it's a moderator pm-ing someone and saying they won't remove a comment but man, it sure was rude, an apology might be a good idea. But at the end of the day, I have enough conflict in the rest of my life. I don't need want to see bad arguments here. What I really want is is that scout-crack feeling when some boy walks up and says thank you. I'm here to learn better ways to get that. Yeah, I'm greedy. I suppose I could help people here but there really aren't that many people here, especially those that would like some help. Why drink beer and get in a fight? Why talk about scouts and get angry?
  15. I agree. We re did patrols about a year ago. I told the scouts to figure it out and do right by the younger scouts. They all ran around and picked friends and somehow the globs grew into patrol sized globs. They grouped more by personality than friends. You'd think that would be good, but in fact, no. The short version is summer camp was rough. there was a bit of moving around. But by now patrols do not want to change anything. I did spend a lot of time talking to patrols to get them to work through their people issues. The one thing that helped me is nobody could blame me for how the patrols were put together because I had nothing to do with it. Now the problem is going to be how to work a bunch of new scouts in with minimal disturbance. A lot of these guys do not want to split up. There are a couple of scouts I wish would split up but I'm keeping out of it. As for using a random number generator to make patrols, that sounds like a bad way to break up friendships. Depending on how many patrols there are, for those scouts that have one or two really good friends, it's likely they won't be in the same patrol.
  16. My wife and both kids were exchange students. We've hosted several. Exchange students can be highly motivated, wonderful additions to your troop. Not all are but these kids are already in a completely different environment where trying something new and getting over making a fool of yourself is a day to day occurance. We had a camporee where one scout, the PL, was just outstanding in getting his patrol motivated. Between that and his accent I asked him where he was from and what program he was in. He was Brazilian. If you think scouts is all about learning on your own from your mistakes without mom and dad around to bail you out, then stick your 16 year old kid on a plane and don't talk to him for a month. That's what we were told. Once your son finds his host parents they will call you. Tell them you love them but you don't expect to hear from them for a month. 100 yards for a weekend? How about 10k miles for ten months? If the kid is here for the school year then he's over the worst of it. Again, not all kids are great but a lot are. If the kid wants to be here as opposed to the parent that wants him to be here then he'll be fine. They will have US insurance. The host parents should be fine but if it makes you more comfortable then go ahead and Skype with the parents. Also, ask to talk to the local coordinator of the program. Better yet, talk to the boy and have him arrange for you to talk to these people.
  17. Because it's eagle required? I'd rather see more requirements involved with doing than discussing. To encourage a scout to make a career out of cooking I think it would be better to teach him how to fry an egg without burning it than talk about a career in cooking. Success is a better motivator. But it's more than that. I really like to cook but it would never interest me as a career. I cook every day and all I get paid is good memories with friends and family. How about learning something because it's fun? So I don't see anything wrong with a scout saying no, that's not for me.
  18. Click on his avatar and read the last half dozen posts he made. It's not too hard to guess why.
  19. I'm not sure it matters. The adults that are eagle scouts are no more likely to help out than the other parents. It's just that those that do help come up to speed much faster. It gets down to getting to know the parents, and preferably before asking them to do something. I talked to a rabbi that turned a synagogue around and I asked her what her secret was to getting more people involved. She said it's easy; get to know the people. Invite them over. Treat them like guests. Their age has nothing to do with it. In a world that's becoming more impersonal people like the human touch. Granted, this takes time, but the recipe is simple. Isn't this exactly how we treat the scouts? On the one hand we tell scouts that leadership is more about the people than the task. On the other we want parents to follow us into the troop and be a part of the team. We have a new CC and my only request was that we get someone that enjoys talking to people and getting to know them. I want the CC to get to know every parent the way I get to know every scout.
  20. MattR

    Swords

    Interesting how multiple threads simultaneously come around to the same subject. Trust isn't a given, it has to be earned, and we really want the scouts to earn it. Swords, rifles, hiking on their own up a rock, doesn't really matter. What also seems to be a constant is that older generations don't trust younger ones. Maybe hindsight is a bit through rose colored glasses. I was one kid that got his rear chewed out for being disrespectful, lazy, and all the other things I dislike about dealing with kids-these-days. But I have to admit, when they do get it, it's a great high. Just a guess but I suspect it was the same for my parents, and theirs.
  21. This is not the first time I've heard of differences between Philmont training and national training. My guess is there's something going on between Philmont and those that do training at national. As in, Philmont likes making training (and quite possibly the money that comes with it) and national could care less so they both go their own ways. I talked to someone a long time ago about better understanding how to get the patrol method going and how hard it was to find any useful training and they said Philmont has this great course. I said if it's so great, why is it limited to Philmont and why does it cost so much? No response.
  22. But a boy scout can go backpacking, so what's wrong with outpost camping? Well, let's look it up in the g2ss. Oops, this is the g2ss. Hmm, well, the word outpost isn't on that webpage except in that graph. The graph also suggests, in the right most column, that wilderness back country is limited to 14 and older. Backpacking is also only mentioned in the context of high adventure, 14+. So I guess backpacking is no longer allowed in boy scouts? Or maybe this whole page should just be ignored.
  23. That would certainly be a better model, and easier to focus on the right things. But it would be tough to make work in today's busy world. Nearly every scout that has Eagled in my troop has described a lazy phase they went through on their trail to Eagle. Without that shiny medal at the end a lot of them would have just left for all the other activities they have going on. When they're 15 they know the check boxes are just a bunch of hoops. At the same time they aren't mature enough to see the bigger picture. Once they're 17.99 and just done their SMC, if you heard them talk you'd realize they agree with everything being said here. It's much more than check boxes. It's about giving. But without the bling they wouldn't have stuck around to learn the lessons they did. So I'd say the eagle focus has a purpose in a round about way. Maybe I can do a better job with the middle aged scouts, but even my son told me I was fairly stupid when he was 16 but I'd gotten a lot smarter by the time he was 18.
  24. I don't know about most of those 54k, but I just received a very nice thank you note from one of them. The program does work. There are lots of bits and pieces to the program but a few are critical. First is high adventure. Make memories and they will return. Second is the desire to earn Eagle. Third is a culture of helping out. I use the second as leverage to get a scout to do the third. And then I get a really nice thank you note. The numbers don't bother me one way or another. Most of the program changes don't either (except for MBs at summer camp). The graph shows a big spike starting in 92. Maybe that's more a reflection of society than the program. When I was a scout nobody really cared about Eagle. And consequently nobody ever encouraged me to be a better leader, or do my Eagle project. So I never wrote anyone a thank you note.
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