MattR

He's an Eagle scout as soon as the BOR is completed. So if he wants to wear the patch, let him. He doesn't have to do the COH. I'd call that bad taste but there was a story about someone that missed his ECOH because he went to war in WWII (so, not in bad taste). Anyway, when the guy was something like 85 years old he decided to have his ECOH.

I'll play by your rules, Beavah. First rule is that all decisions are made in the context of the scout oath and law. It's not about you, it's about others. The biggest problem I see is scouts afraid to make a decision. They should be encouraged to try and as long as they consider the oath an The point of the patrol is to deliver the promise of scouting: fun, friendship, the outdoors, advancement, adventure, and service. Not the troop, not the adults, the patrol. The size of the patrol is less than 8 for a reason. That's how many personalities a group can deal with, youth or adult. Never mix patrols. Scouts need to develop as a patrol and learn about each other. This takes time. Besides, patrols often like just having 4 scouts on a campout. If only one or two scouts from a patrol show up for a campout, they can ask another patrol to be guests. Let the patrols pick themselves. But remember the oath and law. Make sure this is good for everyone. Also, if the older scouts decide to go on their own then they better act like a super patrol. The expectation should be higher for them. They should be an example, not a dumping ground for slacker scouts. And yet, this can be a good way to get a bunch of older, lazy scouts out of the way. Just sayin. A patrol is a team. A team works together and helps each other out and looks out for each other. A leader makes a team happen. A leader has to put the team before himself. A common misconception is that the leader does all the work. His goal is to get his team to work without him being any different from anyone else. That's the ideal anyway. To get there he should be creating experiences of teamwork by keeping everyone busy. He should be giving others opportunities to lead as well. He should be asking them how they want the promise of scouting delivered. The leader should be more interested in the people than the task at hand. The leader should not make a decision that he doesn't have to. He should be more interested in how the team performs then what they perform. If the patrol votes for hot dogs and he wants brats, he should keep his mouth shut and be glad they made a decision. On the other hand, there are times when a patrol is really struggling and a leader needs to step in and make decisions. It takes experience to figure out when to step in and when to stay out. Anyway, everyone in the patrol needs to understand that the patrol leader needs to be obeyed. Problems are opportunities to teach problem solving to the leader or the team (especially when a patrol leader over steps his bounds). Growth is an important idea. As scouts and patrols grow they need less direction. They should always be growing, otherwise they get bored and quit. Boundaries are important. Boundaries between patrols, between patrols and adults, between patrols and the SPL. A young leader will tend to step back and let someone with more experience step in unless the boundaries are very clear and everyone is trying to keep it that way. Communication is also important. Without it everyone starts making assumptions. Adult interaction with the patrols depends on the SPL and the patrols. If you have a really great SPL that understands all of this then let him develop the PLs. His interaction with the PLs should be similar to how the PLs interact with their patrols. He should know his boundaries as well.

Influence them? It would be a whole lot easier on everyone to just make a requirement and let the scouts figure out how to meet it. Oh, but wait, we're not allowed to change the requirements or retest. I don't retest, I have my scouts sit down with an ASM that "checks" their skills. Kind of like calling squirt guns water projectile devices. But that would cause another boring, drawn out, 14 page argument on this forum that has already been beaten to death. No thanks. I'd rather go camping.

I don't have a problem with certs that are two years long. A week ago I got to practice my CPR. It's still a shock to see a body in a heap on the side of the road. The skills need to be muscle memory and that only comes from repetition. Personally, I think the first aid MB is a crock. Only the BSA says one and done on CPR for Eagle scouts. The adults have to do it every two years because that's what the Red Cross thinks is right. We can be retested but a scout that got First Aid MB can't be.

Very sorry to hear that.

I just saw this thing two days ago with an adult in my troop. Conclusion: great way to get hit by a car. The good news is rather than a driver being distracted and hitting someone on a bike, it will be the distracted person getting hit by a car. The bad news, it will likely be a child. When gpses first came out I spent too much time looking at the screen and not enough looking at the scene. Eventually I figured that all out. Here's a cheaper version. Get a bunch of blindfolds and an area away from the street. Make pokemon characters out of paper cups. Learn how to use other senses to get around. To network, talk and listen.

You've only run into this problem twice in 15 years? That's pretty good. I seem to run into this more often. It sucks and it ruins all the fun. But someone has to set a standard and that's why you're miserable over this. Since you're not the SM there's only so much you can do. If you were the SM then this is what I'd tell you. You can't say after the fact that this is what has to happen. It has to be said before. If nobody has told this scout up to this point that his participation is not enough then that's the adults' problem. In fairness to the scout, he doesn't know what the requirements are. What the handbook says and what the troop wants are different. The handbook says here are a bunch of check boxes and they are all one and done. I agree it should be more than that but that's not what the handbook says. The SM might even be talking about character and leadership at every meeting but that's not concrete enough for a 17 year old boy. It has to be: here are the expectations and you either are or aren't meeting them. These expectations are obvious to you, but not the scout. Has anyone sat down with this scout and talked about what is expected? If that never happens then write it off to experience. There is some time, but not much. As I've said, I've been through this before, and rule #1 in this situation is you have to believe in the scout. You have to believe that he can get something more out of the program. Anything else is unfair to the scout. You can't give him the experience all of your other Eagles got, but you can do something. My goal is always to get the scout to see what it means to be a leader, or active, or know the skills, or whatever can be done in the time that's left. It's my fault if I haven't been watching each scout. I'm playing for the long game. My hope is that in 10-20 years the scout will look back and say he understands what scouts is about. Maybe this scout is not a natural leader. Maybe he's lazy now. Maybe he's also a 17 year old that's starting to look beyond high school. You haven't had much time with him. Can you instill a couple of experiences he can look back at with pride? Something important to ask yourself: is this scout just bad, or is it something else? (I'll talk about mom in just a sec) Is he a good kid that's just being the usual teenager that's cutting corners? Is he just painfully insecure and can't make a decision? If you set the bar where it should be, and then support him can he make it over? You only have 6 months, what can you do to make him successful? Then there's mom. Mom's can be such a pain. Some see the check boxes in the handbook and the patch on the shirt and their son is going to get Eagle. Does this scout even care about Eagle? Is he just doing it for mom? If he doesn't care then all this gnashing of teeth is just putting him between the SM and the parent. Talk about no fun. As far as band and excuses and what not, drop it. Band people can be anal. It might not be this scout's fault. One thing I've seen is a scout that had been mothered so much that he couldn't make a decision. It took him until the very last moment to complete his project. He did a nice job, too. But we were going crazy. We had to teach him how to make a decision. How to make a phone call to an adult that was not related. He was honestly terrified. He did want it. He just couldn't see how to get there because mom wasn't going to do it for him. He did, however, go on a lot of campouts so there were adults that knew he liked scouts. His parents also supported us so this scout had no choice but to figure it out. I'd have a blunt, honest conversation with this scout along the lines of: Do you want to get Eagle? I mean you, not your parents. If so, let's talk about what Eagle requires. Make it all very clear what is expected for both the Eagle project and his participation. Talk about how nobody is going to come and help unless he starts making connections with these people. This isn't mandated by the troop, it's just reality. No friends, no help. Make it very clear. Also, before anyone signs off on his project plans, make sure there's an understanding of what the definition of success is. It only comes into play if the scout makes a huge simplification to the point where there's no leadership. He just needs to know if he commits to something he needs to do his best to make it happen. Plans change but they shouldn't change too much. Once you've made that clear, encourage him, help him, celebrate the things that go right, and hope he makes it, but let him control his fate. BTW, to solve the skills issue we have each scout, at each rank, sit down with an ASM and they review the skills. If they don't know them then they will work together until they do. We will never "fail" a scout and tell him he can't get the rank, just that he has to go back and prove he knows it. With scouts that newly join our troop from others, I've seen that first rank take several weeks. That is just enough motivation for scouts to not want to do it again, and to work some skills into activities.

I think you might be getting a lot of sideways looks wearing a pirate bandana during a flag ceremony. I hope they don't salute with an "aaarrgh" Anyway, to answer your question, I googled about and troops can define their own neckerchiefs and headgear. The only official word seems to be on the uniform inspection sheet and that says the troop has to vote on the head gear. It doesn't say anything else. Shirt, belt, socks, pants all need to be official. So, looks like as long as it's scout appropriate, then it works. But what's appropriate? A beer ad would certainly not be appropriate. Stosh's cheese head hats would be seen as a sarcastic slap in the face to all uniforms, so I wouldn't call it appropriate. There's a certain decorum that goes with the uniform. Sounds like a fuzzy line. To me, temporarily changing the uniform to have some fun just doesn't sound right. Maybe there's another way to have that fun? Pirate neckerchief slides made of painted pvc with a skull and cross bones? It could be a good discussion to have with the scouts.

Me thinks we scared him off.

There's another way of looking at this. We go to the outdoors to get away from ... wait for it ... the indoors. Every one of us has our own level of comfort. Does bringing your own food make you sissy city folk? Catch your own! Anyway, maybe a better question is why do we go to the outdoors and what would make that experience better? Not only do I get away from the usual grind and have some fun, but it also allows me to get closer to God, nature, or whatever anyone else wants to call it. That perfectly serene moment when the universe just seems right. Cell phone coverage would absolutely ruin it. Younger scouts are different. This idea of roughing it has to be brought on slowly. The idea of purposefully living without something requires some maturity, and it's getting that much harder because everyone is so used to being one button away from civilization. One thing we're trying to teach scouts is to take care of themselves so learning to do without that button is worth something. The next problem coming is virtual reality. How many scouts are addicted to video games? Virtual reality will be worse. I can hear it now. "I can fly to any galaxy in the universe with my VR goggles, why should I look up at the sky when it's cold out?"

I think this is a great opportunity for someone that knows what they're doing to show someone that has never used a tool before to learn and make it useful. The big IFs here are common sense, do you trust the teacher and the student, and will there be enough time to do it right? If so, go for it. Power augers that I have used can get out of hand quickly and I'd say no unless the scout is big enough to handle it and an adult is on the other side of it. Gas powered tampers are less of a problem but you do need size and strength. Power screw drivers? saws? No problem. Wenches can get out of hand, too. It's more of a mind game thing then size that is required. What kind of a service project uses wenches anyway?

I wish them the best of luck. If they get it figured it out I think it could really help troops and cubs.

Tedious must be British for wrong. I remember going for two weeks and maybe completing 2 or 3 MBs as a scout. The rest of the time was summer camp. We learned outdoor skills and did them. We did lots of competitions. The only class setting was at the rifle range where a gruff old guy scared us into learning gun safety (that subsequently prevented a huge disaster in my life some 12 years later). We built towers. We went canoeing. We had fun all day. Now it's school. When I ask about scheduling time for summer camp things the response is sure, go for it, but you can't use any of the boats, lake, rifles, or any camp resources during scheduled classes. I sit in on classes and half of them are really naps being led by clueless counselors. The underlying issue is the focus on the advancement method at the expense of the fun method (outdoors). The council's are not helping with this. They focus on MBs because that's what the parents ask for. They want teaching because eagle is all about MBs and everyone wants eagle. The result is unit's don't get much support and that is what Randall should be working on. Put the summer back in summer camp.

Not really. It's mostly scheduled around MBs and the MB classes take up the bulk of every day. There is some free time but it's mostly scheduled. If you want to just play with a canoe then you almost have to do it through a MB class. The problem is that most of the class is not really playing, so you sit there most of the time listening to a counselor jabber on. I'd rather see what they do with swimming, make a small part of the time instruction and enough testing so the scouts are safe, and most of the time open to everyone. If a scout wants the MB he can do the book work at home or in camp, on his own. If a scout just wants to canoe all week then let him. There is an issue with all the scouts wanting to do just a few activities and not having enough resources, and I can see scheduling used for that, but this idea that everyone is just at camp to complete a MB rather than keep getting better at something just drives the one and done advancement mentality that permeates everything.

No and I don't think so. But that's my opinion and to each his own. The idea of a CO saying these are our rules but anyone of any, or no, religion is welcome to join us, sounds better to me.

Do you have Cliff Notes? I go on a campout and miss so much fun Yet, the topic of how best to encourage a scout is getting down to the crux of what we're all about and I'm sympathetic to both sides. People can abuse this program and they can also make it do wonderful things. Ain't that the definition of life.

Absolutely. Here is where Stosh's take care of your people comes in. A 5 year plan I'd like to see is: 1) Find one unit in each council that wants to turn things around. 2) Help them turn things around. 3) Repeat. 4) If the council can't do that then fix the council. I suppose 0) is: Believe in scouting. Anyway, this would do more to help the BSA then any of the vacuous blather I read in that speech. Once they started turning troops and packs around they'd learn what to put into all of the training, they'd learn how to structure round tables, how to rewrite JTE, and plenty of other things.

Hedge, it does seem like an unusual use of what a troop guide normally is. It might not be bad but whenever I see someone from outside of the patrol assigned to the patrol for some function then it can be troublesome. It sounds like the underlying problem being solved is having someone look out for the new scouts in a regular patrol. I think that's a worthy problem to solve. You said the PL's are busy doing other stuff. Why not make a patrol troop guide, much like a patrol quartermaster? The PL picks him and not the SPL. This offloads some work from the PL and teaches him how to delegate, gives a scout some leadership, and keeps the patrol working as a unit without outside interference.

Here's your problem: Nothing happens to them when they don't turn them in on time....there are no consequences. Plenty happens to me as I am then required to track down parents and hound them for what we need. The onus is on you to make this happen, not the parents/scouts. The reason it's on you is because you don't want the scouts to not go to camp, to not fail, to not have any problems. Everyone wants the scouts to go to camp, so you help and do all the work. You're so sweet! And a lot of people are walking all over you. It doesn't matter that you said the rules are to get the forms in by a certain date. Everyone knows the real rules are that you will send them a gentle reminder every 2 or 3 days. So, some guidelines. There need to be well communicated rules and consequences. Also, don't be the bad guy. Use the camp's rules and consequences and modify them just enough so you can work with it. And let the parents know this. Without the competed forms the camp will not let you in, and I need an extra day to collate them. So, no forms, you can't go with us. This way people will call you asking for help against the evil empire (read: camp rules) rather than getting mad at you. Then you have to hold their feet to the fire. Most likely there will still be a few people that are late but they will be easier to deal with. And if it's more than a few, turn them around at the parking lot and send them home. I've never had to go that far. Good luck.

Preferably after a night of no sleep. That's called birth control.

Facebook, per their terms, requires a minimum age of 13 for someone to create an account. https://www.facebook.com/help/157793540954833 Someone convinced my daughter to lie about her age and get an account when she was about 9. That was an interesting discussion. Anyway, if the parents did not create accounts for the scouts then the scouts lied about their age.

Isn't it time for this thread to die? This SM is not working out for this scout. I agree with JoeBob, not signing the blue card is a good enough reason for me to leave. But that's it. Ever seen bad clergy? or a bad cop? or any of a number of other people we put on pedestals? Since when are SMs so wonderful that we've never had to deal with a bad one? Maybe he's stubborn and too proud and got himself boxed in and just wants to save face. He made a mistake. Maybe he is a jerk, but so what. Turn the other cheek. 14 pages of who knows what is only going to raise blood pressure. And if the scout is so traumatized by dealing with a bad apple then it's time he learns a lesson: Sometimes people that should be good crap on you and it's best not to hang onto grudges. Find him another SM that will look out for him. That will do him much more good then trying to fix the original SM. Move on and complete Eagle elsewhere.

I would absolutely hate to be the SM that has to deal with that protocol, @@Fehler. Any incident of bullying shall be reported immediately. Does that mean an adult has to be in every patrol at all times? If bullying is the repeated use ... then how many incidents are required before it's considered bullying, at which point it has to be reported? But wait a minute, part 4 implies that one incident triggers a response of throwing a scout out of an event. So what is bullying? Any stupid stuff kids might get involved in? And the adults have to deal with it. What if one scout is pushing buttons and another scout just wallops him? Is that a bullying incident? One strike and you go home? And what about all the scouts that just sit around and watch this spectacle? Any discussion with them about standing up for what's right? This parent is upset about what happened before. That might be a good place to start. Figure out what happened and talk about what the response would be. For me, someone broke the Oath and Law. After that it's all the same. If this parent absolutely wants a protocol with 8x10 color glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one, then you have an anal parent on your hands. It's not the protocols in place that make a safe environment, it's respect for the Oath and Law from everyone in the troop. In my troop, if scout A is picking on scout B then it tends to come up. Scouts talk. I listen. I'll talk to scout B, then A, then ask them to get together. Then they shake hands. Then it's over. Better yet, one of the older scouts does this. That handles 95% of the problems. Everyone knows who scout A is and he starts making a name for himself. If it continues then typically Scout A loses friends and quits the troop. Besides, that's probably what the scout wants anyway. Every time I see a scout do incredibly stupid stuff and shows no remorse it's because he doesn't want to be in scouts.

@@Stosh, I just finally read this. As a scout I camped at that cemetery. The mountains were not so great around there, but the history was amazing.

I like it. How about setting quality for each patrol, instead of the troop? If the PL needs a scout to do training to become the next PL, then it would be good for the troop to set that up. The needs of each patrol should drive the troop.