MattR

If I were to do it again I'd go with white gas. They do take some training but they are much more reliable. I don't know what the cost of white gas stoves are compared to propane stoves. The green tanks don't work in cold temps and the 5 gallon tanks are huge and heavy. Our solution was to buy 1 gallon refillable tanks that are used in boats and campers. They are small enough for patrols to split up (we also ditched the chuck boxes). But that also means we had to buy hoses and adapters. Those are where the problems show up. A little bit of dirt in a hose and it doesn't work. And the tanks have some sort of safety valve that gets stuck.

It might also be that scout help is not wanted. We had a flood here a few years ago and I couldn't find anyone that wanted our entire troop to help. The reason is they would only take people that were 15 or older. We did get a few scouts to help but it wasn't through scouts. We finally did find a way to help back at a distribution center. Setting up cots and stuff like that would have been perfect, but nobody had anything like that. Did you call the local council and ask for help?

Two sides to this. My guess is when you were younger you also had station wagons that could hold 5 back packs and 5 people. We have much smaller cars now. Most of our campouts are below freezing so scouts are bringing more gear just to stay warm. That all said, I agree with you. There is that whole thing in the first class cooking requirement about take only the utensils you need. I can not seem to get any parent to see how that is anything but a nightmare. I did not have a chuck box as a scout. We had a bag of stuff that we distributed at the meeting before the campout and each scout brought his share and we didn't bring stuff we didn't need. That would eliminate a big chunk of gear we currently bring.

As far as a way to get MBs signed off, I suppose this is fine. It's new and different. But this is one more example of how one method of scouting (advancement) is turning into the aim of scouting. Unfortunately it's happening in my troop as well. Many parents get vocal about advancement and don't see anything else. Personally, I'm getting ready to step down as I don't feel like fighting that anymore.

If by banquet you mean a chance to eat, by all means have the meal before the ceremony. My guess is most ordeal candidates would not be in a ceremonial mood if they were hungry. That's what my lodge did.

Good news.

The US flag always goes on the right, but in the case where there's both an audience and a speaker it's the speaker's right. That would be the audience's left. As others have said, the den flags would look better with the dens. But, if you don't have a pack flag it might be nice to have all the den flags in it's place.

Sorry if this moves everything over to I&P but is cultural appropriation always wrong? Jazz is now very popular in Europe. Considering jazz started as African American was it being appropriated by white Europeans somehow bad? There's no doubt the Europeans very much respect and admire jazz so I don't see a problem. I understand that people could use a minority's culture as a way to insult them, and that would be wrong, but what about when they borrow some cultural aspect because they respect it? When I was a scout I worked at summer camp and had to teach Indian Lore MB. I didn't know much about it but a guy that had been raised in a Native American family sat me down and taught me quite a bit one night. I will never forget that night. I gained a great deal of respect for this man's culture. I don't see how that is wrong. Just to lighten this up, bagels in the US originated from Polish Jewish immigrants. Does this mean everyone else shouldn't eat them?

Just another perspective, and worth what you're paying. As a scout I was in the OA. I'm fairly sure this was the largest lodge in the world (transatlantic council) and we were spread out so much I didn't do much with them and really didn't know what the OA was about. The glory days that others talk about I never saw. I don't doubt their stories. Now I'm the SM. My scouts take the meaning of the OA to heart much better than the adults. With a dozen scouts eligible in a troop of 50, we still only nominate 2 or 3 scouts a year. They really are the most honorable in the troop. Unfortunately they don't do much. There's a critical mass needed at the chapter level and it isn't there. I've never seen any back slapping from the scouts in the OA. I have seen it from a few adults but not recently. I really like the idea of the OA. It provides another outlet for leadership. I've had scouts that weren't meshing with the troop go to the OA and find their niche. Unfortunately it has an uphill battle. The two things going against the OA are the lack of time the scouts have and the lack of leadership experience at the troop level. My guess is that there is more need for leadership in the OA than at a troop, so if the troops are hurting then the chapters are going to be worse off. That's what seems to be going on in my neck of the woods.

I agree with NJ, our district will not accept a project that someone else planned. Many years ago we saw a couple of projects which involved nothing more for the scout than to find labor. We let those go because we had approved them but we tightened things up after that. Now, the scout needs to show leadership in the planning as well as execution. What that usually means is they at most get a vague idea of what the beneficiary wants and they have to go talk to people and figure out what will work. The best ones are still the ones that the scout completely sees the problem and drives the entire thing but that always can't be done. After all, the beneficiary typically knows their organization better than the scout. There are some projects that come from the heart and are just incredible. I had a scout just finish one that was related to a brother that died in an accident many years ago. This scout is the most disorganized kid in the world but his project came off perfectly. I think he knew from the day he joined scouts that he was going to do an Eagle project for his brother.

@@NobodyReally, you said the counselors are not reliable. Is that the troop's counselors or the district counselors? If you don't know about the district counselors, in a nutshell, they tend to be much more knowledgeable and passionate about a topic than the average counselor a troop comes up with. Your son might really enjoy working with them. And working with them one on one should quiet any talk about short cuts because of going to a MB fair.

We have a single axle, not very big trailer, and when loaded can be 4000 lbs. I have a 2003 Tacoma and will not tow it out of the city. There are newer Tacoma's with bigger engines. But I still wouldn't tow it because my truck's weight is not much different than the trailer weight. That can make for a dangerous situation on slick roads. We're fortunate in that we have a couple of full sized trucks in the troop. They can barely tell they're towing anything. One last thing, not sure why but a smaller engine can get much worse mileage than a big engine when it's pulling something heavy. If you really want a bigger truck then this is a good excuse. It's also a good excuse to teach your Scout's to be thrifty.

I have the scouts organize their ECOHs. The troop pays for the necker and awards, I make them a slide. The scouts decide what they want and where they want it. I tell them to aim for 30 minutes and then don't worry about the time. The longest I've seen is about 50 minutes. Nobody reads letters because nobody wants to hear it. The scouts may end up with the same award but they all get there differently. These scouts are all wonderful in their own way. When it comes time to planning their coh I ask them what scouts and Eagle means to them. Their coh should reflect that. So, typically there are stories and slide shows that make moms cry and scouts laugh. I always enjoy ecohs. Maybe part of this is because my scouts typically don't get eagle until they're 18, so really this is not just congratulations but also a good bye and good luck.

We're usually below freezing at night from October through April, September and May are 50/50. For our cold campout in February we go to the other side of the continental divide where it's snowier and colder. At night, 0 F is respectable, -10 is cold, the coldest I've been in is -20, and the coldest I've heard of for our district is -25. We sleep in tents. But we tend to have less humidity so I don't think it's as bad as the Midwest. During the day it can get close to freezing. If the sun comes out it's really nice. Odds are that's also a big improvement over the Midwest . The thing that makes a campout tough is not so much temperature as it is wind. T2Eagle is absolutely right, it's all about the right gear, knowledge, and what you're used to. People in Montana would probably laugh at us.

I think Eagledad has a good point in that the BSA model is getting watered down and could get watered down a lot more. Irrespective of girls, the program is getting micro managed with more and more detailed requirements that is turning the scout oath and law into a facade for a laundry list of requirements to be checked off. The difference between that check list and the great youth we help mold are the adults that know how to work the system. That knowledge is slowly dissipating. I have fewer and fewer adults that get it or did scouts as a youth. Throw in the idea that all girls will be encouraged to get Eagle and I see problems. Some girls want to do what the boys are doing and I'm all for having them in the program. What I don't want is a program that's made for all girls. I do everything I can to motivate scouts to push themselves. My biggest fear is not the girls, it's their moms. Sure, there are a few moms that like to rough it in the outdoors, but the majority do not. Right now it's really easy for me to tell a mom we go camping every month, including February when it gets really cold, and they are welcome to join us. If they don't like it when it gets below zero, they shouldn't go with us. But if I have their daughters, and they feel obligated to go, then it's going to be a harder push. What do I say when none of the moms want to go to the winter campouts, sorry, your daughters can't join us because none of the moms will go camping? That will quickly turn into lets replace the winter campouts with cabins and/or lock ins. A lot of boys need a kick in the butt to try something hard and this is the type of excuse they would use to not try. That would piss me off.

Email is not reliable. We are bombarded constantly by announcements, both electronic and at meetings and they're mostly forgotten. It's a case of you get what you pay for. It's really easy to send out email asking for help. It's much harder to call each person you need help from. You know what works better. If someone needs help with their eagle project then they should talk to scouts one on one and ask for their help. I also agree with qwasze about how some scouts don't respond to email, so there are two sides to this story. But still, one on one, face to face communication is the best.

@@Phrogger, I read what everyone wrote and there's a disconnect. What you said is your son does not match this troop. Your son likes the stem stuff and he doesn't want to do a 20 mile hike. Those are two extremes. The fact that he's so young could also be a problem. So, getting back to the basics, does your son have any friends in the troop? This is critical. Next, what does he like doing in the outdoors? You mention a bunch of things he liked about cub scouts but none of those include the outdoors. If he likes camping with your family then my gut feeling is he'll eventually enjoy scouts. If he has never done much in the outdoors, and given that he's 10 years old, he's starting behind a lot of other kids. Some kids just don't like the outdoors. Do you like camping? You mentioned the push ups and sit ups. Those are tenderfoot requirements, as are the knots he was working on. If he's not enjoying that then it's probably a case of the people, and not what's being done. Most scouts that age get all excited about having stuff signed off. I do see issues with the troop. From what you say it sounds like the focus is on the older scouts. The fact that your son can't participate in an event because he didn't go to summer camp to take the swim test sounds a bit off to me. We do our own swim tests. It's not hard to set up. Anyway, there should be activities for everyone in the troop. Also, there are stem awards within boy scouts. Google "stem nova bsa" for info. Finally, I would talk to the SM with your concerns. Ask him for help on how best to get your son engaged.

That's simple. I just did a planning campout with my PLC and we talked about MBs. The overwhelming response was there is way too much school work. Their words. MBs have become the bane of getting eagle. When a scout turns 18 and we talk about great memories nobody ever talks about MBs. The eagle project is hard but very rewarding. Scouts are usually happy about any POR. MBs are just a slog. I think there should be a limit on the describe, discuss, and explain requirements. That's what's out of hand. Anything that can be done without sitting and just talking is usually good. Add 10% more requirements to cover safety and that should cover most of it. The rest is just feature creep that has little to do with the main topic, or is just some little detail that could just as well be dropped in the name of keeping the MB focused and fun. LNT does not need to be discussed in cooking MB. Neither does how many calories each scout requires. Those are covered elsewhere. Every MB has a discuss career opportunities requirement that could be dropped. If the scout had fun doing the MB he'll remember it when it comes time to picking a career.

John, what you've done sounds wonderful. You obviously care. The family of these boys will appreciate and find comfort in that. When it gets right down to it, that's the most you can do. The only other thing I can think of is make sure that tree is taken care of, especially until it is established. The pain of what happened will never go away for those parents, but maybe some day they'll look at that tree and feel some comfort.

@@mashmaster, flow rate is probably not the correct question. The flow rate of the Mississippi river is 36M cfm at the mouth. Other than than the large boats it's probably fine to canoe on. Our little river in town is currently 4800 cfm and you can safely ride a car tube on most of it. Four days ago it peaked at 21k cfm. In June it peaked at 180k cfm (not too much below flood stage). Other parts of the river are never safe in a canoe as there are serious narrow and steep drops (class 5+). So, it depends on the particular part of the particular river at the particular time you're on it.

There might be more to it than that. The patrol I mentioned above with the scout that was jealous of the older scouts, most of that patrol went to Philmont a month ago and they argued over stupid stuff the whole time. Two scouts in particular just wouldn't let it work even after 12 days on the trail. They are both strong willed but one in particular just doesn't get what the oath and law are about. Doing something wrong only means you got caught. I went on a week long backpacking trip with a group of scouts years ago and one scout was rather vocal and complained about everything. He brought the entire group down. There wasn't enough of something in the other scouts to just ignore him. The other adult and I tried talking to him, but nothing worked. In hindsight we found out his family life had issues. Personalities do matter.

I'll find out in a few weeks. Doing something similar. But Tampa Turtle brings up a very important point. A pie in the face will only help patrol spirit if it's something the patrol wants to do. It will also only last as long as the competition, so a couple of months in this case. In my troop the older scouts decided to perfect making pizza in a DO and have chocolate fondue afterwards. It's their thing, they came up with it, and other things get pushed out of the way to accommodate it. They've been doing this every campout for the past 9 months. That's leadership and teamwork. I was talking to a scout in a different patrol and he noticed how much fun they were having. Turns out his patrol is suffering a lack of teamwork. I asked him what his patrol is good at and what they'd like to do. Long story short, he got excited about backpacking and making cookies in a DO. It's not anyone else telling them what to do. I don't think you can tell a patrol to have better teamwork. Something just has to click and someone has to make it happen. The right personalities are a big part of this. The great buzzkill is a group of scouts that only do what they're told and complain a lot. You need some scouts that are going to say hey, let's go do this, and a bunch of other scouts that say it sounds like fun.

@@Cubmaster35, this is my take on what @@Beavah was saying -- talk to the church with the intent of doing nothing more than getting an explanation. Maybe there's a valid reason they want to make a change, maybe it's a misunderstanding. If it's a misunderstanding you can likely work it out. As Beavah said, your choices are simple, work with the church or start another pack. The cost of starting another pack is a dollar per scout to transfer them from the old to the new pack. For the scouts it's not much of a deal, assuming all of the parents want to go that route. If instead this ends up splitting the pack then you have to decide if it's worth it. I would add this, based on what you wrote I get the feeling that you are really upset about this. Just a suggestion, but it might be better if someone else talk to the church. Emotions can get in the way. Also, as others have alluded to, no matter where you end up I'd suggest getting together with the leadership in the chartered org once a quarter to talk, have coffee or a burger, and develop a relationship. This will prevent surprises in the future. Good luck.

I think this is a big issue in the development of scouts that doesn't get much attention, especially when it has to do with turning a troop around. Most scouts are not adventurous enough to step into the unknown. They're still trying to figure out how to fit in, they don't want to rock the boat. So giving them lots of freedom to do as they please doesn't seem to work out the way I would like. One way to stay in the rut is to always do the same thing. I've seen scouts brag about how they like to eat burnt food, rather than admit they might need to try something different. Another way they stay in a rut is just blowing off whatever needs to be done. Or possibly not understanding how much time it takes to do something and at the last minute deciding they didn't want to do that anyway. Again, saving face is easier than trying and possibly failing. In the perfect world of plenty of motivated scouts it would be easy for them to get pushed aside by other scouts that want more. I don't see that. What I do see is all the other scouts saying okay, I guess that's what scouts is. If they don't like it they will leave scouts before they confront the older scouts. It's easier that way. I've been trying something to get them out of their rut recently and it's been working. This is a Necessity is the Mother of Invention thing. The two parts include setting boundaries that include a challenge to get them out of the rut, and also holding them to whatever they say they're going to do. Their only failure is not doing their best. If they try they will succeed. But failure creates a problem. Namely, I take over the event and we do what I want, which is intentionally boring. So, come up with a good plan or Mr R will have us all practicing knots the entire campout. I haven't been doing this for long but I haven't had to do more than mention the nuclear option and they will go back and try again. The nice part is they have created some great ideas that surprised them with how much fun they've had. Hopefully after doing this for a year it will become habit and I can drop the threat.

I'd add a qualification to this subject. MBs taught by someone that requires certification are usually done well. So, shooting, aquatics, climbing. Those are all good. I talked to some counselors at the camp we went to and these folks were all good and they had a surprising number of older counselors. If they had their choice they would change things and just go do stuff. No discussions, not reports, no class room settings, none of that boring stuff. Build stuff, hike, cook, whatever, and they'd do it 4 hours at a time. This is an unusual camp but they understand. I'm not sure who's pushing the MB metric. Parents? The scouts are just resigned to it. "MBs are supposed to be boring."