MattR

Why does everyone assume that coed scouts means every unit, at every level, will be coed? Would an all girls scout troop using the BSA model work? Now let's say that there is an all boys troop and an all girls troop that shares the same committee. Different SMs. Different calendars. Shared gear. Shared committee. Shared CO. The parents bring all the kids to the same place so family scheduling just got easier. If these units are really following the patrol method, when they do go to the same place to go camping and are 100 yards apart, would it be a problem? The girls can sing songs around their campfire while the boys beat the tar out of each other around their campfire.

I suspect different beliefs handle this differently. I have no problem with the concept of struggling with God; for all sorts of reasons. Others see it differently.

The parents seem to have 2 excuses. One is they're too old to do sleep overs and therefore have to drive home every night and that extra hour on either end of the day is really going to impede their ability to spend some time with their sons. The other is that those that will stay a few days ... really have no excuse. It'll cost them an extra $5 in gas or something. Split the added cost over the scouts in the car and it's between $1 and $2 extra per scout. I'm trying to figure out how to say this courteously but I'm having troubles. Tell the adults to just suck it up and stay for a few days. If they do they just might have some fun. Waking up before the scouts and enjoying the cool morning and sun coming up. Going to bed after everyone else, enjoying the sounds and the stars. If they can just get over being a little dirty they will experience something wonderful and new. Oh, and they'll get to spend some more time with their sons. And they won't be stressed out about traffic. I mean really. Okay, enough of the sarcasm. You do have a challenge in that you need to politely convince these adults that they are really missing out. What they call hardship I call a new adventure. Our closest camp is an hour away on small country roads. The furthest we've gone is 4 hours. Next year we're going five or six, just to try out a really cool place. Adventure is fun. Road trips are fun. I can't even imagine this scenario so is the real issue just a power struggle? That's not good. Good luck.

There have been other changes over the decades other than gays. One of the biggest has been that life is more competitive than it used to be. The economy is certainly more competitive. Someone once told me that decades ago if you asked a parent what they wanted for their children they would tell you they wanted their kids to be good. Now, they'll tell you they want their kids to succeed. Art is now competitive. Marching band, Dancing with the Stars, American Idol. Something is wrong when art is about winning. Whereas scouts used to be about being good, now it has to be about succeeding. If all you have to do is succeed then taking care of younger scouts is not a selling point. If the parents don't see the point of scouts then they won't volunteer. They won't make sure their kid gets to meetings or campouts. That's why the numbers are going down.

I'm curious as to what they mean by basics. We do something similar, NSP from when they join until summer camp. My PLs didn't say they lacked basics, they said some scouts lacked maturity. Some scouts would be able to move in to a patrol after one campout while others would take a year, or maybe more. How can I spread that out? I like the idea of not moving them into patrols all at once. I don't want the "last one picked" scenario. Maybe some sort of requirements to sign off. I don't know, 3 campouts with a positive evaluation of the Scout Law?

For me it's not mixed age vs same age. Personalities and friendships have more to do with it than anything else. Scouts need friends. Without friendships scouts start dropping around 13 when they start finding friends elsewhere. Friendships can be of similar ages or different. Similar ages are what everyone thinks about. If the ages are different it's more like an older/younger brother relationship. Depending on whether the "brothers" are respectful of each other defines whether the friendship will work. If it does it's magic. At the same time, a group of same aged scouts with different personalities can be just as difficult to form a patrol bond. I've seen similar aged patrols explode into mean girl territory. I've also seen a clique of friends stick together and help each other out to the point where they all had their ECOH together. Also magic. So, what to do? Forget graphs, charts and spreadsheets. Let them figure it out and then be there to help pick up the pieces. As for your son's patrol I see all sorts of red flags. The PLC decided to split your son's patrol up. Did anyone talk to the scouts in his patrol to get their input? Did they just randomly move kids around? This patrol has spent a year together and they are making friendships. Breaking those up is bad. Next, the reason the patrol is broken up is because the scouts aren't advancing. This is not a reason to break up a patrol. It might be a reason to sit down and talk to a patrol, but not to break up friendships.

I agree that relatively few scouts are looking for more challenging adventures. A lot are looking for recognition by adults as peers, but I wouldn't say all of them are. Many are looking for recognition from their peers. All of them are looking to see where they fit in and if they find something they like that contributes to the unit then they're happy as can be. It could be working with younger scouts or it could be bigger adventures. Some like OA. I have a scout I can't quite figure out and he certainly is looking. Very bright. Very witty. Good heart. He will try new things. But can come across as a smartass. He tried being PL but didn't like it. He had a challenging couple of younger scouts. So it's not that the adults were a problem shooting him down. A whinny 11 year old can do just as much damage to someone that is unsure. Then there are the scouts that just don't really want to be there but mom or dad is making them. I have one or two of those right now. They're not helpful or optimistic. Unfortunately, those scouts, or even those that have other problems, can make it very difficult for scouts that are just trying to figure out where they fit in. It's not like we just need to get out of their way and let them lead. Supporting them is a balancing act.

You know, after 19 pages there has been no blood spilled and we found something we agree on.

To paraphrase James Carville, "It's the program, stupid." Fixing MBs, fixing adult training, fixing the image, focusing on kids having fun while learning self sufficiency. I agree with all of these and that there are lots of things to work on. However, there's one place to start and that would be national. Talk about sclerotic. There is either no leadership or they have no idea what the program is about. There probably are some people there that have been in scouts and stay connected, but my guess is there are a lot of turf wars going on and no focus on the big picture. Honestly, if they'd find another job for the one guy that has to put a requirement about career options in every single MB then the collective time wasted by kids on mindless nonsense would decrease by a million hours a year. A much bigger issue is training parents in outdoor skills so they can take scouts on trips.

I think the only way around this is local option, but is transgender a local option? Gays scouts isn't. Gay adults are. Just wondering what was said.

blw2, just my 2 cents but here's another view of you being part of the solution. Rather than being confrontational how about going to the SM and saying, just like you've told us, "I'm worried about my son and the scouts in that patrol. They don't want to go to summer camp. Because of this my son is losing interest. Would it be okay if I talked to the scouts and the parents to find out what's going on? Can you give me any advice on how to talk to them? Is there a way the troop does this sort of thing?" Don't quote chapter and verse about patrol method, boy led. Just talk about what you see with your son. If someone asked me if they could find out what's going on with a patrol that's having problems I'd be very happy and encourage them. New scouts need to be making friendships if they're going to last. If the SM blows you off then, I have nothing for you. But likely it will be better than that. Talk to the parents, maybe they see similar issues. If you can get the scouts together then finding out what they really enjoy and really get bored with can start a good conversation. I hope you can find a way for your son to make friends and keep having fun in scouts. Good luck.

Adamcp, what were the ages of the people you worked with? Also, is there a medical diagnosis? I mean, who decides? If it's the parent, as the BSA says, this sounds like medical marijuana in Colorado and that was abused no end. I would think a doctor that really understands this would be able to make a better decision for a kid than scouters or parents.

Here's an old example of "a friend to all": At the end of a long day of political wrangling, President Reagan would often call Democratic Speaker of the House Tip O’Neill, and ask, “Hello, Tip, is it after six o’clock?†“Absolutely, Mr. President,†the Speaker would answer. “After six o’clock†meant work hours were over, and the two leaders of their respective parties could put away their swords and bring out their Irish whiskey and wit. I remember all the voters going crazy and getting personal over these two and yet they could still be friends. Now, showing any understanding of the other side is weak. Humility is for losers. I know, the people that scream the loudest that we should all accept our differences are currently in Berkley waging violence because of someone they disagree with. But that's not humility. Humility is something we're trying to teach scouts. They aren't the center of attention. They have to give more than receive. There are things bigger than them. Scouting is important. Maybe that's why fred was dodging questions.

I see two different issues here. The first is transgender and the second is coed. First the TG. Irrespective of how any kid comes to thinking of TG, the kid will likely have issues. Just like a whole mess of other kids in my troop. The kid wound too tight. The two kids that were legally removed from their parents. The kid with PTSD from watching his mom smoking crack. The kid with Down's. The numerous kids that saw their parents go through an ugly divorce, some of whom are seeing shrinks. The kids without fathers. The kid that cuts himself. The momma's boys. The kids that are just down. All the boys dealing with hormones . Honestly, these are the kids I have in my troop now. I mean, the odds of a TG kid joining my troop is 1 in 10, but even if one does, it's just one more kid with issues. As for going coed, I have mixed feelings. I see both sides of it. As long as troops can decide their own policy I can make it work. If I did have girls then patrols would not be coed. And you know, I wouldn't mind having a few girls go on a winter campout to shame some self appointed macho boys into getting off their lazy butts. The bottom line here is that I'm playing the cards I've been dealt. It's just like athletes that get bad calls by the refs. It's all part of the game. All kids have issues. They also all have a bit of God in them. So whatever rules come down I'll work with. The challenge I see with either coed or TG is not whether I have kids with issues, it's do I have parents that can help with those issues. My complaint with all of this is that fewer parents are helping out. I saw no drop in participation after the gay issue, but I have seen a gradual decline over 15 years of adults that will help out. Conservative or liberal, fewer adults are setting aside time to volunteer.

I like CalicoPenn's statement - the scouts don't eagle out so much as they quit. Earning Eagle is just one method, it's not the aim. There are a lot of people that don't understand that. Part of the real aim is to keep them interested for as long as possible so they keep learning new things as they mature. Some kids are just wired to only be interested in recognition. Fun or even challenge without recognition is of no interest. Those kids just want to get the patch and move on. I guess that's fine, we do what we can. But I'm not going to change things for them to make it easier or harder. The whole business about fumes and we have to get them to eagle before they quit is nothing I'm interested in.

Not quite sure I understand but if the idea is to get people with no hearing problems to understand then how about working it from their point of view. Give a presentation as a mime. Use slides so the audience has to read what you want to say. All you have to do is point where they have to read. Start off with slides that explain what you're doing. Go on to slides that tell a story. The first few slides are fine, everyone can read them. Just about the time the suspense thickens modify the slide so parts of the story is blocked. Just place a block over the text so the audience can only read some of the words. Put the block in different parts of the screen on different pages. Slowly make the block bigger. Better yet, the block could be pictures of things people do that make it hard to lip read.

Shift, it seems to me that what you really want, the purpose you're here, is to convince us that the BSA is not worthy and that we should leave. You never really asked a question. It was always a statement. So all I can think is you want us to join you in your denunciation of the BSA. We won't. While we all see weakness in the BSA we stick around because we know it also has it's good. Some kids learn something and have fun doing it. That's all we're looking for. You said "I can't teach young people about the Scout Oath or Law, when I know that is not what all scouts are." If everyone followed that logic nobody would teach religious school at any religious organization. For that matter nobody could teach a child anything about the police, the FBI, medicine or any other organization that claims to make the world a better place, because they all have their problems. You're done with scouts and that's fine. You're not the first to leave angry. I understand your frustration and don't blame you for it. At the same time I still enjoy working with kids and seeing them smile when something works. I don't expect a perfect organization or perfect kids. As long as I keep feeling like I'm making a positive contribution I will keep at it.

Chocolate and too sweet? I hate to say it but that sounds American. Our scouts really like cooking competitions and they come up with some really good stuff. They've recently been comparable to the adults. Part of that is some of the adults that used to have way too much fun (someone brought a smoker once) have aged out and the newer adults just don't cook. As soon as the competition is over the scouts go back to the usual nasty junk they do over and over and over, until the next competition. In other words, cooking just to enjoy good food? Nope.

This isn't exactly what the OP is about but we just want a clear description of what the goal of the project is. If the beneficiary signs off on it, and it's very clear what the project is then there are no surprises at the end. I'm not a fan of the new eagle project process because the council can sign off on a vague project and then there are surprises. I can see how some flexibility is important because plans change, but we started seeing, since the new changes in the planning, plans change along the lines of the scout just deciding he didn't want to do all of what he said he'd do. The beneficiary doesn't understand what an eagle project is about and so they just sign off on it and sometimes refuse to work with scouts again. Consequently we went back to not approving a project until it's well defined. After a project is approved by the council a scout still has more to do before we'll sign off. The result is that it's very clear what needs to be done and signing off is usually a non issue. If the beneficiary agrees to it, we say there's enough leadership, and it's a valid beneficiary, then there's no issue. In all honesty, that's what people want before they do any project with someone they haven't worked with before so I don't know why things changed.

Haven't a clue, NJ. He looks like he's wearing an army uniform but I thought the pants were supposed to be blue. As for his rank, he's got stars, or he wouldn't be standing where he is. What does strike me is his posture. Note to self, never salute while standing next to someone in the military.

Tahawk and Deaf scouter, I think you both just failed the Turing test. Just a hunch, but the OP looks to me like a random bunch of lines pulled out of previous threads related to this subject.

Deaf scouter, these all get down to who solves what problems. Yet one of the main points of scouting is to teach scouts to solve problems. That leaves us with the idea of don't waste a problem that could be a learning experience. So, while we say let them fail, what we really mean is don't steal the opportunity for them to learn. It will be much easier dealing with type A parents if you use the latter words. There are different types of problems. The first is a fairly innocuous one where a scout makes a mistake and the impact is only on himself and it's not that big a deal. Eg: a scout forgets to bring eating utensils or Friday night dinner for himself. The adult response to this should be "bummer!" Or even "why not go ask your patrol members for some help." The worst thing that can happen is that he gets hungry. The best is that he learns not to do that again and also his patrol might learn to look out for each other. It's a good trade off. Next, a scout forgets his sleeping bag and it's a winter campout. Depending on your definition of winter camping this could be a very serious problem. Here the trade off between the worst and the best that can happen leans a lot more towards the worst. I wouldn't let him go to sleep without enough insulation around him but I'd encourage him to ask around before I helped him out. These cases are easy to figure out because the impact of a scout's problem is on himself. The scenarios that cause the most angst is when a scout does something that impacts other scouts. Eg, a scout forgets to buy lunch for his patrol. If hypothermia weren't an issue I'd say Bummer, start scrounging, maybe we have some oatmeal for you. The benefit here is that possibly there's an opportunity for a patrol to learn about better communication. "You said you were going to buy lunch." "I never said that!" If the adults get involved in this one then the scouts miss an opportunity. Next, some scouts are treating some other scouts poorly. The parents want to jump right in and remove some scouts from the troop or at least change all the patrols around to "split up those bad kids." The opportunity is for scouts to learn how to bring up tough issues. Here's where "they need to learn how to fail on their own" probably doesn't convey the right thing and parents will go ballistic. Rather, the adults need to get the scouts to talk in a respectful manner about real problems. I think this type of problem is getting harder to deal with than it used to be just because adults are not allowing the scouts to deal with people problems. I have the most upset parents over things like this and also the most growth with scouts once they learn to find their voice. Next, some "scout leader" drops the ball and the rest of the patrol, or even the troop, is sitting around with nothing to do. Again, adults will want to jump in and solve the problem, fire the scout leader, or who knows what. Now we're getting closer to boy-led issues. If the scouts don't know how to solve other types of problems then they won't know how to solve problems related to leadership. They need to talk, they need to plan, they need to be able to adapt, and they need to learn how to do all of this while they're doing it. This is where the rubber hits the road with respect to living the ideals of scouting. It's easy to say you're cheerful, but not when someone else forgot lunch.

Okay, I replaced two sections Number of scouts in patrol at end of 6 months. (25pts): (Best: have 6-8 active scouts, Better: 5 active scouts, Good: 4 active scouts. The PLC defines what an active scout is. Treasurer: (25 pts) The patrol has a treasurer. Good: The patrol treasurer ensurers that expenses are handled for at least 50% of the campouts. Better: The patrol treasurer ensurers that expenses are handled for at least 80% of the campouts. Best: Same as Better but there is also a budget that has been approved within the first month. Eagle94-A1, I've had a few patrols earn the national honor award. I like it but it doesn't do that strong of a job of encouraging the patrol to take care of its members or develop leadership, One patrol leader decided to do it and he just drove the whole process. When he was done it was over and they went back to where they had been. They did stuff as a patrol but they didn't share any of the responsibility.

Thanks blw2 and NJ. The point of the patrol size is to get the patrols to take on some responsibility to help recruit scouts. I agree it is sometimes out of the scout's control. I would not count a scout that has only gone on one campout in 6 months as active. What I'm trying to get at is that there are 6-8 scouts that are interested in scouts. We seem to have one or two scouts every year that are officially on the books but not the least bit interested and it just screws things up. Maybe a better way is to let each troop define what active means and leave it at that. About the budget, good point NJ. I just want a patrol that worked hard to get the recognition they want. Some want pizza parties, some want new gear. As for having a patrol treasurer and they deal with their own money, I like it! Obviously I didn't think of that, so thanks.

Here's my idea for Patrol JTE. I'm sticking with the Troop JTE Bronze, Silver, and Gold. My apologies. The scoring is a bit confusing but it's similar to the Troop JTE and not worth the words to explain it. Please be constructive. I'm going to have my patrols do this. Patrol JTE: done over six months, (twice within the year for Troop JTE) Number of scouts in patrol at end of 6 months. (25pts): (Best: have 6-8 active scouts, Better: 5 active scouts, Good: 4 active scouts. An active scout is one that has gone on at least one campout. Camping (250pts) -Long term camping: same as troop JTE (100pts) -Short term camping: same as troop JTE, with the addition that a minimum of campouts are by patrol (cooking and main event) (80%: Best, 65%: Better, 50%: Good) (100pts) -Challenge campouts: A percentage of campouts are a challenge: backpacking, hiking, snow, water, desert …. (Best: 50%, Better: 30%, Good: at least one) (50pts) Service: (125pts) Have at least half your patrol participate in a number of service projects that include: -Your community (25pts per project, 75pts max) -A pack (at least one) (25pts) -The CO (at least one) (25pts) Advancement: (100pts) Each scout decides what he wants to accomplish for advancement during the six months. Score based on the patrol teaching 1st class skills, MBs being done individually or groups within the patrol. -Good: at least half the scouts meet their goals. -Better: 2/3 of the scouts meet goals and half the 1st class skills taught within the patrol. -Best: 80% of scouts meet goals, all 1st class skills taught within the patrol, at least half the MBs earned individually or by a group within the patrol (not at MB fair)) Patrol Meetings: (100pts) Have a plan for each patrol meeting that has been reviewed by the PLC at least a week before the meeting. -Best: 80% of meetings run this way -Better: 50% -Good: 25%. Patrol Development: (100pts) -Everyone has a job: (50pts) For every patrol based campout every scout has a designated job and is trained to do it or is trained while doing it. At least half the jobs will give a scout an opportunity to lead his patrol. (Best: 80% of campouts, Better: 60% of campouts, Good: 50% of campouts) -Reviews: (25pts) After every patrol event the patrol gets together and reviews the event and also how the patrol worked together. (Best: 80% of events, Better: 60% of events, Good: 50% of events) -The APL acts as PL for at least one campout and all meetings related to that campout and has taken a troop level patrol leader training (25pts) Budget: (25 pts) The PLC and troop treasurer decide awards for each patrol for accomplishing overall Gold, Silver, or Bronze. This is done within the first month. Scoring: For each category: Best: earns all the points, Better: half , Good: quarter Overall: Gold: earn 365 pts, Silver: earn 185 pts : Bronze: 100 pts. (out of 725 possible)