MattR

SOAR does one other thing that really helps. Put an announcement on the front, whenever you want, and one day a week it emails a synopsis of all the most recent announcements. So, no flood of emails.

Now I understand, thanks. Yes, the point is to improve. I just sat in on a EBOR. The scout was a procrastinator. He also had been through a lot. His parents lost custody, are alcoholics. He was a year behind in school. Legally he's blind. But grow he did. Not the best leader I've seen but certainly has an amazing resolve and a cheery attitude. He went and took the GED so he could graduate 3 months early and start taking classes full time at the local CC. He's one of those success stories that make you feel good about scouting.

A lot of scouts really respond well to competition. It's a form of challenge. A lot of games have competition that's based on challenge. Is it that you see competition go so far that it takes over and replaces the scout oath and law? That I'd understand. At our klondike I added a few patrol vs patrol competitions because the scouts asked for them. I gave awards for patrol spirit and teamwork, but not for winning the competition. That was a nice balance.

@ParkMan, that's a great idea. What you describe is exactly what I was looking for and I asked if those things would be covered in WB. I was told yes (queue the magic elixir ad). However there's the practical issue of the current WB group admitting that something else might be useful. People would go to your course and skip WB. That would cause a turf war.

@ParkMan, did the scouts choose tenderfoot in 3 month and did they come up with a plan to get there (with dates and activities)? I certainly believe that tenderfoot in 3 mo is leisurely for an adult, but for a scout and his patrol leader, who might be more interested in sharpening sticks, making fires and cooking dutch oven brownies, I can see 3 mo being a rush. Maybe rush is the wrong word. More like the primary focus. I work with troop guides and suggest that tenderfoot by the end of summer is a good goal. Better than that is have the patrol work as a team to help each other complete it by a chosen time. Rank is just a means. The goal is developing teamwork, friendship and having them make their own decisions. Besides, there is a lot of other stuff worth learning and fun to be had. Organizing menus and activities for a campout. Learning how to cook something that's edible on a campout. Making a patrol flag. Keeping everyone busy. Learning how to have fun while washing dishes. I think it's better to have a fun game that encourages scouts to want to learn the skills then just teach them the skills. It's certainly less efficient, but it's a lot more fun. At that age having fun and making friends is more important than "ranking up." I hate that term, but that's what some of my scouts have said, the ones that are more interested in rank than anything else.

Another way to make @Col. Flagg's point is that the training is so vague as to be pointless. The training could be tightened up and focused to what's important. The idea of having some concrete examples from which a SM could start from would be much better than a discussion on leadership. I went to visit a troop this week and the SPL was leading the troop. Unfortunately all the scouts just sat there and the adults made presentations. You could call that boy led because the SPL was the MC. Boy led but boys bored.

This is what I wanted in woodbadge. They could bring this back and a week in the woods doing training would be wonderful. Not much needs to be written.

Is it only me but look at the font. Now look at the font for the scout handbook 8th edition ('72-'79) Bad Karma.

Not to mention they might break the axe head. I have a really nice 1/2 axe that is a joy to use. It has a very hard and sharp head. The manual that came with it very clearly say don't use it as a maul. Mauls are designed for hitting the back of the head. Axes are not. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled .... whatever.

He should go over to Bryan and get us a smoke shifter

We did that years ago and 12 people is hard for anyone to lead the rest of the time. And if 10 scouts show up on a campout then it's really hard to cook. I think the 6-8 is there from experience. I'm also wondering if deciding who can make it a few weeks ahead of time, when these temp patrols would be set up, might help. We tell the PLs to give everyone a job. No matter how many scouts they have they should all have a responsibility. If a scout knows he has a job to do then hopefully that will help encourage him to show up. I guess that means I'm either brilliant or really slow.

Since I'm the Dr Evil here, I humbly apologise. I don't want to start a new thread on this. But if you want to start a thread on ways that you have motivated scouts I'd be interested in hearing them, you being young and all that. However, the fact that you're even here on this forum means you're way ahead of the curve.

Asking for 10 full weekends a year plus a week in summer is hard on many scouts. Why this is is another thread, it just is.The result is mixing and matching patrols the meeting before a campout or, as in the case of my troop, small patrols on campouts. This tends to hurt the patrol method in our case or just chuck it completely where troops mix and match scouts. How about borrowing a bit of venturing? Venturing has little structure and anyone can lead an event. I certainly wouldn't want to go that far but a little more flexibility could make things easier. Keep regular patrols but create temporary patrols for major outings like campouts, high adventure, a special event that only a few scouts want to do, or older scouts that might want to do their own thing. Rather than make up patrols the meeting before an event make it up a month ahead of time and stick with those patrols during the preparation and the event. After the event go back to the regular patrols. The PLC is still running the troop but for each event the PLC can designate temporary patrols and leadership. The benefit is more time for a patrol to get ready for an event, patrols that are a better size, and more opportunity for scouts to lead shorter events. The disadvantage is an added layer of complexity.

Whether or not they read it is not the question. The problem is they rarely respond. They don't remember that they need to respond. They no longer take notes in class because it's all on line. They really have little experience with the idea of notes. I'm sure very few ever write down a phone message. As I said before, the technology is not the issue. There are dozens of apps out there. My troop uses Discord. It doesn't make a difference what app they use.

In a way, text messages are worse. If you're receiving a hundred a day then it's harder to mark a text as something you need to respond to. Technology will not solve the "I don't really care" syndrome.

I'm not saying fix the district. I'm saying ignore them and work around them, much like what @TAHAWK saw. I'm not talking first step, I'm talking only step. Make the world a little better. Get a couple of SPLs together to plan their own events. If your PLC is up for helping another troop have an ASPL work with an SPL from another troop that would like to see how to do it right. I'm in Northern Colorado. We're wondering when our council is going to get folded into the Denver Area Council (they have big donors). Our council is so broke they're thinking of having weddings at our scout camp. Imagine the bride, at the outhouse. Yeah, this is really going to happen. I have no idea what the Denver council is like.

We can use your help. What job do you want? I promise you nobody will give you grief or tell you what to do. There are not enough people to do that. We end all of our roundtables by having an after meeting at a bar. If you like beer we have a lot of brew pubs in town. It's very laid back. Do you want to help crews? Training? Help packs recruit? Name it! We can use your help. Can you make tonight? I have heard of the woodbadger mentality you talk about. I have seen it and I appreciate your, um, how can I say this, disappointment with it. I took woodbadge and got a few things out of it but it certainly didn't impress me. So there you have two extremes, the old boy clique (dead weight) and ready to turn out the lights (a vacuum). It's easier to walk into a vacuum and make things happen. My challenge is keeping it small because I'll be doing most of it. Dead weight is harder. This is an aspect of leadership that is not taught at woodbadge. You have to carve off something that nobody can butt in on. A troop or crew is exactly that and that's what you appear to be doing. There are other ways to do this. If there are other troops or crews in the same situation as you why not have a campout where all of you come together and do something fun? You don't have to call it a camporee but it essentially is. What can the council/district do? If you want to encourage scout leadership and require all PLs to do something before hand, then do it. You've now replaced the camping chair and training. And nobody can get in your way. I know, it's not very scout like. But if half the troops/crews in your district decide to join you then you've got something.

Hmmm, no. It's not an eagle project in my opinion. The principal provided the drawings and you're providing the labor. Painting a cart is not an eagle project. It may be a nice service project. What I'd do if I were the scoutmaster: The principal asks for a vague idea. In this case a cart. Since the principal has already given an exact plan it's not too much to ask the scout to design a drawer. The scout figures out the details and asks a lot of questions to make something useful. All the details including figuring out how to make drawings. If he doesn't want to learn a sw tool that's okay. But he needs to make drawings and part lists and exact dimensions of what needs to be done and in what order. He should have a plan with all of that in it so it's good enough that he could give it to someone else and they could build it. As for building it, he can do everything other than work the power tools. He can find another adult to do that. You don't need to be there other than to say Stop! You're about to damage my equipment or kill yourself. He can learn how to use the tools up to the point of turning on the power. Show him how to make sure the cut is straight and exactly where it needs to be, just don't do it on the final project. If he wants a hole drilled for a screw he should know how deep and what sized bit. He can use wood clamps and glue. He can learn how to hide the screws or he can build it so the screws show, that's not your decision. The adult actually doing the drilling should be coached to do as he's told and no more. However, I'm not the scoutmaster. The fact that dad is the eagle coach means, to make a long story short, none of this will likely happen. You can talk to the scoutmaster with your concerns. You can decide what you're willing to help with. And you can say yes you'll help or no you won't. I am impressed that you asked.

The thing I've always liked about venturing is that advancement is not such a big deal. I honestly think it's truer to scouting then boy scouts. Adventure and fun. The problem I've seen is that the parents don't really know about it and so there's little motivation for it. Also, the scouts that I've seen aren't really prepared to lead when they get there. The girls have little experience in the outdoors. The result is a very anemic program. I'm sure there are some good units but for the most part it's a bunch of kids without much motivation. I'd be more interested in working with crews but I think it would be easier if they dropped the age so that leadership and teamwork can be the focus while they're young and more receptive. I do think coed troops could honestly help crews as the girls would have more opportunity to learn some outdoor skills and also make friends at an age where that's critical. There are some kids that just want the adventure and fun, don't really care for the MBs and ranks and don't really fit in with the boy scout program. Rather than have a troop create a venturing crew for older scouts (which I know, does not work) how about a venturing crew create a troop just to handle the younger scouts until they're old enough for venturing?

You're asking what has the same thrill and impact as a flaming arrow without the flame or the arrow (sounds like a Five Easy Pieces quote: "A chicken salad sandwich. no butter, no mayo, no lettuce, hold the chicken"). How about replace the point on the arrow with a dull point? Or make the entire lake a shooting range and get the RSO or whatever is needed for archery (and place a target at the other end of the lake). Nothing will beat the flame but even a glow stick would be fun to watch. As for arrows falling into the lake get a canoe and go find them. The scouts could have fun with that.

That's a big brush. In my own small way, in my own small corner of the BSA universe I'm trying to make a difference. I'm the new district camping chair. I put the kabosh on a change the last guy did as nobody ever asked the SMs what they wanted. I'm pushing hard to get scout input for what the camporees should include. At klondike last weekend I had said the scouts want more patrol vs patrol competition and I was told that was a bad idea as it's hard to match patrols for equal sizes, ages, abilities. So rather than fight it I said let's have an experiment. In the morning we'll do the old model of patrols competing against themselves and in the afternoon it will be patrol vs patrol. The scouts loved it. They were hollering and screaming and practicing. I gave them ribbons for scout spirit, teamwork, and scoring in the morning events. For the patrol vs patrol the winner got bragging rights only. They had fun and one parent, that couldn't go, called me Sunday night and thanked me. I also know nobody is going to complain enough to fire me as nobody else is around to take the job. Maybe your council has enough volunteers to form some hard cliques but we will take anyone.

No offense taken. In fact I limit my knots to one row on one shirt that I only wear indoors. Enough to start a conversation if someone is interested.

I have a James E West knot and I have no idea who donated the money for it. I put it on my uniform as a way to say thank you to the donor. So please don't assume it's someone that wants to buy recognition.

I think this whole thread illustrates why National is interested in membership numbers. The number of scouts is going down and the overhead is not. The result is economic stress and thus everything mentioned in this thread. The long term solution is getting more kids having fun camping with their friends. This is one of those "It's the economy, stupid" messages that should be part of National's letter head. "It's kids having fun, stupid." I don't think the solution is going to come from focusing on what is preventing kids from having fun. It's going to come from focusing on ensuring that kids are having fun. We've been through all the usual problems. Parents are busy. Parents don't like the outdoors. Parents don't volunteer. Kids are doing more. Kids must participate in all these other activities. Girls. Moms. Dads. Single parents. .... Here's another thought. Focus on making it so much fun, rewarding and challenging that most kids will honestly decide that they're more interested in scouts than a second, or third sport, or doing anything else. It's not that I don't want kids doing anything else, I just want scouting to compare favorably. Right now the only support that national provides is getting Eagle. Eagle may be a challenge but it's not fun. It's not enough to keep an 11 year old that likes soccer, football, and baseball to stick around. Eagle is not the fundamental attraction for a kid to stay in scouts. It may be for the parents but for a kid it has to be fun. All the fun stuff, the stuff that scouting is really about, is up to the SM to figure out (not to mention selling this idea to those parents that only see Eagle). But getting back to the OP. The question every council and national employee should be asking them self every day is whether what they're doing helps each CM and SM deliver fun and adventure. If all they come up with is it's important that every scout memorize the USDA My Plate diagram then they're failing and adding no value. Come up with some honestly fun activities that a unit leader can use out of the box and then there's value added. If all these parts were supporting the CMs and SMs then the money problems would fix themselves.

Time for a new topic. I had to pick something up from an old scouter today. I was lamenting the drop in participation and said I was reading some old books from Hillcourt that were just dripping with enthusiasm and adventure. So he said he took Woodbadge with Hillcourt being the SM. That started a discussion. I asked him about a syllabus and he told me it was pretty simple. After months of preparation by the staff he showed up the first night and told everyone there would be no flip charts and all the teaching would be outdoors (chuck all the planning). Each patrol had to teach anything they wanted, as long as it came out of the scout handbook, the patrol leaders handbook, the scoutmaster's handbook, or the field book. Also, whatever they taught had to be in the form of a game. So, basically patrols made up games that taught skills. There might have been more but that was the bulk of it. So he used that as SM. Patrols made up games that taught skills. And to think that I used to really encourage scouts to make up games that covered skills. I'm thinking this might be how the next camporee works.