MattR

Hi everyone, this is a reminder that this thread was about goofy cubmasters and has morphed into a whether religion has a place in scouts. Let's get back to legislating over goofy (kind of ironic, don't you think?). If you'd like I can split this thread but we've beaten the subject of religion in scouts to death plenty of times and nobody has changed their minds. I personally like goofy cubmasters. At that age it's what scouts react to. It is about the scouts, after all. People who think that eight year olds want to sit in a serious discussion about ethics the whole time are not looking at it from the scout's view. Sure, ethics has a place, but even in the scout program the scoutmaster minute is called that for a reason. It's not the scoutmaster sermon. Scouting is fun with a purpose. Fun for a cub scout is being goofy.

@Scoutmaster Teddy, maybe it will help if I share some stories. I was in a very similar situation. Do a search on "Eagle and weed." It was not fun. The question of whether the scout learned was the only thing I was looking for. The answer was no, just as you've seen. Another story: at one point I had both sons of the council president in my troop and both of them just didn't get it. I told the oldest if he didn't change his attitude I wouldn't sign his application. That created a fuss. The good news is he did change his attitude and the scout's dad thanked me. Standing up for what you believe in is the right thing to do. It's possible you'll get fired. More likely you'll be looking for a new CC. The question is not what the CC thinks, as he's the parent of the scout in trouble, the question is what do the other parents and scouts in the troop think? It could be that you're fired and everyone goes with you to start a new troop. It's not just about this one scout. It's also about the message that everyone else sees. Yes, it sucks. But that's why you get paid the big bucks

@qwazse, I've seen this presentation, it doesn't cover what's important. It doesn't talk about the change from adult to boy led. The challenges of doing as your PL asks you to do. Failure as a tool. Having to solve some people problems on your own. Eating burnt food because the cook is learning to cook. Adults not jumping in and saving the day. How the parent can best help their scout with frustrations. This is how the calendar is created and how your scout can influence it. Conflict happens, this is how your scout resolves it. This is the boundary between the scouts and the adults. The training I've seen doesn't really cover this. We've mentioned how the patrol method is now one paragraph in the SM handbook.

@Tom243, welcome to the forum. Since your troop has already done cold weather camping, how about a bike camping experience? Those are more fun than cold for cold's sake. Lots of snow is also fun. The whole point of 9b is to get the scout to try different things that are all fun. So I'd say unless your part of Kentucky is boringly flat (like most of Arizona) and dangerous for biking (Arizona during snow bird season) and is arid (like Arizona), I'd say use this as a good opportunity to get your scouts to try something else. And if they have already done these things, great! Send them to a snowier place for a high adventure weekend. @Saltface, my apologies

@Eagle94-A1's and @CodyMiller351's threads and a recent conversation with a really great cub master begs the question: What are good ways to teach new parents, both prospective and those that have already joined, what scouts is about? It's not just let the boys lead but that we're not a paramilitary group (and all the other bad ideas out there). I realize there's the intro to scouting training but clearly that doesn't work. Aims and Methods could be a good start but The Right Way to Fail might also help. What do people do that works really well?

Did we get the complete reason? Honestly, good job.

That changes my understanding. First of all, a big round of applause for taking this on. Second, getting Grandpaw to help with this guy is a good idea. And any other adults. Third, officially you're an adult but the scouts are going to see you as one of them. That's a big plus. Use this to your advantage. You love backpacking and these scouts are looking up to you. So go backpacking. It doesn't all have to be long hikes. And some campouts that require all food to be cooked in dutch ovens will make for a fun break. As long as you look out for them and throw some fun things in the mix go ahead and challenge them. Something else you might not realize but now is a really important time to start looking for webelos bridging over. If you could get 4 more scouts in February that would be awesome. I have no idea what's going on with the pack that was at your chartering organization. Anyway, it would be great to develop a relationship with a pack or two. Talk to your scouts about how important this is and see if you can get them to help with some dens. Be Den Chiefs. Invite them camping with you. Den leaders are burned out by now so reaching out to them will be greatly appreciated. One thing about being the SM is having a vision of what the troop is about. Sharing that with everyone helps keep everyone on the same page and also is a great way to sell your troop to packs. Ask Grandpaw to help with this. We can also help.

I don't know who the SM is but he needs to get on top of this now. There are all sorts of red flags going off in my mind. Inappropriate games (we have a fairly strict policy about phone usage). "I'll never let my son fail." Ignoring everyone else. Whining about stuff. This is not a list of problems, this is one problem. This is an adult that doesn't get it and never has. He is not a team player. This is a mess and the only way it will be resolved is to start by saying this is the way we do things and if you don't like it then you can not go on campouts with us anymore. I realize this sounds harsh but I've been in this situation before. Finding him another job will not solve this problem. The first time it happens everyone is looking at each other with a quizzical look on their face. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Don't get fooled twice. Now, it might be that the situation I was in was dealing with a much worse personality but at a minimum this guy needs some hard, simple boundaries set (you do not instruct any scout on anything, you do not buy any food). Certainly if I were you I'd sit down with him and explain to him how the scouts do things and what the adults are not allowed to do. It would be great if it worked but don't be surprised if it doesn't. I spent a couple of months dealing with such a person. He finally went to another troop and that poor SM had to deal with him until finally the Council put his son in lone scouts. I felt sorry for the boy, he was a reasonable kid.

I agree, @fred8033, that too formal is a problem, but too informal is also a problem. There is a sweet spot. When I see an entire patrol working on the same task, for every task, then it really all gets dumped on the PL because all he's doing is herding cats. It reminds me of swarm ball when 6 year olds play soccer. Everyone goes for the ball and nobody thinks about getting open to receive a pass. Consequently everyone is tripping over each other. As you say it depends on the task. The PL's job is formal because it really is a long term job. The grubmaster's job is one campout plus a few weeks prior. He's the leader for that task, he owns it, is responsible, and when it's done it can go to someone else. The scout responsible for making a fire has that job for an hour or two. He doesn't need a patch but during his job he does have authority to get people to help. Respecting that authority, or being obedient, is a reason for just a bit of formality. Lots of new scouts will just ignore any scout because they've only had to listen to adults before. Eventually they learn they have to listen to their PL but they keep arguing with other scouts in their patrol. It gets back to team work. A lot of scouts have never really seen that before and it's hard. Especially those without siblings but that's another thread. That's why I promote the idea of giving everyone a job, even if it only lasts an hour.

Yes, but, why is it that the scouts have such a hard time communicating? It may be easy to actually send the words but someone has to figure out what the words are, the best time to send them, respond to questions, etc. What are the salient points in the PLC meeting that need to be sent out? To be honest I see very few scouts that can do this. I don't see many adults that can do this. We have a secretary at our committee meetings. Scribe is just a title, communication is the task.

I could see a forum for just starting any unit.

Forgot one idea: Be Prepared. In other words, have a plan, an idea, enough to keep things going even if things change.

@Eagle94-A1, this is what I'm trying to solve. It's not just the SM/SPL, it could be scouts from another patrol walking in and disturbing an activity. The scouts don't understand that interruptions need to be dealt with. They just go with it, lose all sense of time and don't realize what's happening. They really do own their destiny.

And what does the PL lean on when the SPL/SM/some random adult comes up to a couple of his guys and tells them to come with him, he needs them to do something for him? Nowhere does it say the patrol should be making the decisions. I suspect this wasn't an issue 50 years ago. Lead: with enthusiasm Do: Adventure/Advancement/Skills/Fun Live: the Oath and Law Use: servant leadership Own: your patrol's destiny

Pushing this thread back to the top. @LeCastor, what are the half dozen ideas you want the PL to walk away with? Ideas that could be referenced when the PL is stuck with a problem. From there the activities in your training should be clear. Or how about between 6 and 8, just to go with the patrol theme. One idea is too vague and won't help the scout (so "boy led" doesn't really help much). Twenty ideas is off the deep end and twelve is too cumbersome. But 6 - 8 is enough that a scout can keep all those ideas in his head at the same time as he learns it.

Is there a way to submit photos? I'd enjoy seeing photos of scouts from around the world.

There's a difference between a formal job and something that just needs to get done. Not every scout needs a formal title but they all need to help out, especially on campouts. Designating a patrol QM for a campout is a job and a good way to train leadership. Grub master and clean master are also jobs that unload work from the PL. So that's 5 jobs when you include PL and APL. For the other scouts, who are likely young, giving them something simple, like flag bearer and cheer master gives them easy responsibility at a young age. So I like the idea of giving everyone a job to do. Using the sports metaphor, each player has a position to play. What better way to develop teamwork than having each player know they contribute and, if they don't, they let their team down? At the same time, scouts can be a bit more fluid. But too often I see scouts with nothing to do - and getting bored - because things are too fluid and a couple of scouts are "taking care" of everything. It's webelos 3 at a local level.

I'm really impressed with GBB's writing. On the one hand he wrote a 300 page long PL's book that just drips with enthusiasm and on the other he wrote a four word synopsis of scouts that does a better job of describing the program than anything else I've read. But getting back to getting the scouts to get this. The "administrative unit" view of the patrol is so far from the goal. My view is the PL needs to own the decisions that make scouting what it is. They decide what fun is, they look out for their patrol members, they have to care. So my question has always been how do we get their heads wrapped around this idea. I'm not even suggesting they need to succeed, just that they know what the goal is. They all see the administrative view. I ask because I think this is an important part of the patrol method weekend training and I really have no good answer.

Sounds like a local scout office decision. I have a hunch the troop leader will be reinstated by the national office in a day or so.

It's a snow cave, only first you have to pile up the snow and let it harden. If you keep your sleeping bag above the top of the door it will be about 35 degrees inside. When it's below zero outside that's super nice.

Welcome, @DanTheMan

I really like the idea. That is the missing piece that NYLT assumes is already there. Not promising much time but go ahead and send me your draft. @Eagledad brings up a good point of no connection back to the SM. I had a scout at NYLT and when I asked what I should work with him to continue what he had learned they had never thought of any followup. Does NYLT even have tickets? I'd think that would be a great way to encourage a scout to take ownership and lead. This is one place where EDGE makes sense. We've taught you all this stuff and now we want you to really use it. I saw too many scouts come back from NYLT and go back to the old behavior. I couldn't convince them to use what they learned.

@tripexistence, one more idea for you. Cub scouts is a fun program. Just because you can't find anyone to join now doesn't mean they won't later, after they see how much fun this new scout of yours has. I have a friend that was in a troop in Singapore. They had to go international just to go camping.

So, the last snow was in 2013? The lake isn't even frozen. I am jealous of the dock, though. Our lake in the summer is probably not much warmer than that one in the winter. And it's a lot smaller. I teach scouts to make quinzees and the scouts use them because they are much warmer than tents. We have one winter campout where the quinzees are also warmer than the cabin, just because the cabin leaks like a sieve. Well, that and nobody is allowed to sleep in the cabin.

Welcome, @nate5.