MattR

Since money can't cure everything, why does the BSA need so much of it? That may sound really insulting or negative, but it's worth thinking about. When I saw how much money my council has sitting around, and they can't hire a full time camp director, it really annoyed me. Right now they have openings for every position at summer camp. It's the same old issue, they wait until the last moment and they hire anyone with a pulse. And summer camp depends entirely on good staff. Furthermore, it seems to me the most important job of the SE is to get donations to put in the endowment. That's all about money. So someone in the BSA seems to think money can solve everything. Destroyed sounds like a really big assumption to me. Honestly, the BSA is doing a fine job of destroying itself without the sexual abuse. If anything, there might be some insurance companies in some hot water but the BSA is doing okay. Skeptic, I understand your frustration. This is one more problem the BSA has to deal with. But it's not the only problem. Assuming the BSA does improve YP, which I'm a little bit optimistic about, it won't even be as bad a problem as the others. I went to my troop meeting yesterday and was disappointed how it was being run. All the older scouts and a bunch of parents were working on a HA trip and the younger scouts were, essentially, being led like cub scouts by some parents. So I went to the SM and asked when the next campout was. I made his day. He asked if I could help run something for the younger scouts like I did back when I was SM. I got the names of a few older scouts that would not be on the HA trip. The point is, my troop putting on a good program is about all I can control these days, and helping some scouts make a good memory is all I really care about because it's the only thing that I can do that might help scouting.

I'm not trying to argue, but, I thought you said people have committed suicide related to this. The Vietnam Memorial, Holocaust memorials and just local war memorials mean as much to those that survived as relatives to those that didn't. Again, I'm not trying to, as you've said, poke. I'm just explaining my thoughts. I can believe that. It often takes a very long time for a memorial to be installed.

I'm just curious, but from the victims in this, what helps? Does talking to other victims here help? Many pages ago someone mentioned a memorial. I've seen enough memorials and people crying at them to know they have power. A memorial sounds like a good idea to me. Has anyone raised that idea with the TCC? I had a scout make a walking meditation path as a memorial for his younger brother who died in an accident. He built it at a hospice. Anyway, it was one of the most impressive projects I'd ever seen. This scout was fairly screwy but he knew what he was going to do for this project when he was 11 or 12. It just took until he was 17 to get done with all the other requirements.

Are you saying that anyone that thinks this is simple or easy is likely missing something? If so, I agree. There are some fine lines between helping and hindering. That alone is a good topic. I don't think I understand what you're saying. To me, this sounds like a) there's no point in talking about any of this and b) your troop does it right. So how did you get to the point where your troop does it right? How does the new SM, just in from being a den leader because nobody else will volunteer, figure this out by going to a single source? No need to buy rare books on ebay. I'm looking for a common theme and how to make it concrete so leaders can easily use it to, for example, understand how to answer questions from random scouts walking up to adults because that's where the answers have always been or how to deal with cell phone on high adventure trips. Most of what I learned came from outside any training I got. To me, the way I learn, the training was nearly worthless. Some things I figured out, like how to deal with conflicts between scouts (your go ask the PL scenario). Things like having patrols do their own thing was a long drawn out, 2 steps forward 2 steps back kind of thing that was a constant challenge not only with the scouts but with the adults as well. I completely understand your comments about your patrols not being shiny but that you have scouts making great memories. Again, another fine line between how adults should encourage scouts. And maybe that's the theme - how adults best encourage youth. It's an age old problem. The biggest challenge I ever had was encouraging scouts to own a responsibility or do their best. There was never a one size fits all strategy. The common description is train them and trust them but didn't appreciate the wide range of personalities of scouts. Some scouts respond to a challenge while some respond better to success.

The rules can be a pain but they didn't cause any of the mills we complain of. FCFY is not a rule.

I agree with you. Unfortunately that is the go to method. You have to figure it out on your own. Right. A vague description does not explain how to solve typical problems. I like the idea of stories. I remember my wife, way back when, having to read case studies in MBA school. They were very specific dives into a problem that one company had. It wasn't general, but if your problem was close then you could find useful info.

There are certain themes on this forum that keep coming up and recently there has been a group that stands out to me. There's the AOL thread, the OA thread and a discussion about commissioners. And they all have a pattern to them. Some aspect of the BSA program is broken. It can be advancement and bored AOL scouts, how the OA is a "self licking cone" or how commissioners don't do any good. These are the recent examples but others include the merit badge program, rank advancement or patrol method, to pick a few. We talk about what's wrong and eventually it gets to the fact that this part of the program is not being run correctly. The adults don't understand the purpose of that program and just look at getting scouts signed off or cheap labor for summer camp. The goal shouldn't be FCFY, it should be enough fun and scout led that the requirements just get signed off anyway, or the OA really is a group of stellar scouts that are helping their units improve, or the commissioners are good mentors that know how to work with SM's (and the SM's know how to accept constructive criticism). The patrol method is how leadership is really developed. These discussions are really good. There is information here that I don't see anywhere else. That eventually leads to a discussion on fixing it. Sometimes people mention rule changes but those eventually get shot down because, after a lot of discussion, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules. The issue is the adults not understanding how that program part should be used to fulfill the aims of scouting. And for the most part, that's where the thread sits. The thread dies off and we move on until someone else brings up a problem with, say, an old SM swearing at a new SM. Sometimes @Eagledad brings up the fact that it takes a leader with vision to make this work. Neither of these "solutions", which both amount to saying "just do it the right way," are at all satisfying to me. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about anyone here or any of these discussions. But after watching these threads for years all I can think of is that if it were that easy then it would have already been done and we wouldn't be talking about MB mill summer camps, Eagle mill troops/parents or adult led troops. When a thread came up with one of these problems the first person would say "here's the root of your problem, go read/do this" and a month later they'd come back and say "wow, you guys are brilliant. My whole troop has transformed." But that never happens. There's a problem when the fundamentals of the program are so poorly done and the resulting answer is to take the training or just go read BP's or Hillcourt's work. I don't want to pick on Eagledad, because he's really contributed a lot to these discussions, but it shouldn't take a visionary to do the basics well. (my apologies to EagleDad if I'm misinterpreting his ideas.) A while ago I suggested that the BSA needed to simplify the program. My reasoning was that there are so many parts to the BSA and if they aren't helping then they should be removed. Now I'm thinking differently. There's a simple aspect, common to the many parts of the BSA, that needs to be better understood by everyone. And by everyone I mean all the scouts, parents, volunteers, and professionals. I think it has to do with understanding the aim of scouting but writing a couple dozen words on a power point slide is not conveying it. It's not enough to say this program is about making ethical decisions. If it were enough then we could point to those words when someone says their cub scouts are bored at First Year Camper programs and someone would know what to do. Clearly national doesn't know either because, well, there would be no need for this forum, otherwise . So, what is the common thread among all the "adults aren't doing it right" threads? And, how do we teach, train, coach, wedge into the brains of all those volunteers that want to do right, but are clueless, the answer that will get them progress? Is it a class, a series of classes, a video, a bunch of stories, a volunteer progressive program (with patches at each level/rank, of course) that slowly builds understanding, or what? Let's just say it can't include a mentor. I have no problems with mentors but we don't have enough of them. The reason I'm asking stems from a comment from @ThenNow, who asked if people were heartened (I think that was the word) about the supposed agreement on the bankruptcy case. My first thought was it doesn't matter, the BSA has been on this slow slide and whether the bankruptcy speeds it up or not, it doesn't matter. There's a core idea to scouting that both makes it unique and, I believe, will make it stronger. I'm just trying to better understand it and how to convey it to others.

A lodge covers a council. Or at least it used to.

This is how scouting urban legends begin. To clarify, no, there is no rule in any BSA documentation that says a scout can't have a cell phone. The shirts used to have pockets to hold phones. If the troop wants to prohibit them that's another issue. However, other than crazies like me who like nice cameras, people use cell phones for cameras. It sounds like a dumb decision from this adult.

Could you please explain some legalese to me. The bankruptcy ends civil action but the MI AG is thinking about criminal prosecution? (I couldn't read the entire first article). I really am clueless about this area. I guess this means we will find out who knew what when?

Welcome to the forum, @TGB.

Put another way, it's foolish to assume there's no sexual abuse in 4-H. It's hard for me to believe that the records the BSA kept had much impact on the situation they're in. There are over 80k cases. If most of those cases were in the records and that's how everyone found out about the cases then sure, the records led to where we are today. But there were only a few thousand cases in those records? Everyone has been surprised by the extent of this problem. Why 4-H doesn't have nearly the number of cases is another question. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why but that's just me pondering.

@troop165sepulveda, welcome to the forum!

It's a GIS. That would have explained a lot to me. I think the scouts could enjoy it. I went and found a hike I did yesterday. Now I know how long the hike is. I might have figure out the elevations next.

I've used Google earth to set up compass courses. Getting a USGS overlay would really help for hiking trails.

And how do we know it's an article? Please delineate other's content. It doesn't have to be real rigorous with citations and all, but at least use some quotes. It helps readers.

Yep. Hope it helps. It's been a lousy year. One thing I learned as a new SM is that there are lots more people complaining than helping. As a retired SM I learned that nobody really cared about my opinion so much as whether I helped. As for your old SM swearing at the new SM, that's just an angry old guy that can't find a way to help. Don't let him bother you. Oh, and give yourself a raise of, say, 45%? Does that sound fair? 😀

Since the Ch 11.3 thread is wondering around CO's and their responsibilities I thought I'd try and drag that sub thread over here. The discussion was CO's are not responsible. That's clear to me. The question, however, is what to do going forward. Just changing the wording on the agreement doesn't make anyone responsible. Who takes on the responsibility that the CO no longer will evade? It won't be the DE. It won't be a background check.

Maybe they're right. A jersey would make a lot more sense to me. Let the scouts decide.

@MGinLA, I agree with most of what you said but I did things slightly differently. I still ran the elections. First, I had a couple if scouts that did find their place in the OA and they never would have known about it if I hadn't run the elections. I agree with you that the scouts know more about the scouts than the adults and our elections were much more about character than popularity as the popular scouts took longer to get elected than the quiet, helpful scouts. That said, I can also see certain personalities, if there were enough scouts like that, that would turn it into a popularity contest. Oddly enough, I think the election process itself was really beneficial. It forced the scouts to evaluate all the other scouts. Would they be someone I want to go camping with? It was a tough lesson for a few that were real jerks when they were younger and that just stuck with them. It wasn't just one scout saying it, it was the whole troop. I had some difficult discussions with a couple of scouts. It's a lot easier to get a bad name than a good one. They grew a lot, even though a couple never got nominated. The best leader we had didn't get nominated until his last opportunity. It forced him to look out for others for so long that it became a habit.

I'd sign up to be one if I saw a way to make it work. It's an impossible position as described. As implemented it's a group of people that answer simple questions about council policy. My troop's commissioner goes to most of our committee meetings but is solely there to answer questions about policy. If there's a bigger purpose they're not interested. Comparing that reality to the discussions here about commissioners being an important way to help units develop - I see a gap.

Wrong thread? This is about fees and not charters.

I never used a timer. The scouts had fun just watching the rockets crash into the end and fall apart.

I was both an sm and district camping chair. As an sm the district events could help the scouts fill in the calendar but when they had an abundance of ideas, camporees got replaced. As camping chair I understood that. I also tried to make camporees fun and challenging so the scouts wanted to be there. As for the other events mentioned I didn't organize any of those. We didn't have the bandwidth.

Hopefully the chimney wasn't lit. I use a burner for a minute to start charcoal in a chimney. Much better than wads of newspaper. No flaming bits of paper floating around.