MattR

Or call it an official church youth group activity? Leave the uniforms and handbooks at home, have fun, play in the outdoors. If the church is up for accepting the responsibility then it's all good. If not, it's an opportunity to fix something that has been broken for quite some time.

So double dipping was okay! Still, what impressed me the most was a 15 yo, first class scout that was regarded very highly-rated.

I was wondering where this change came from and all I can think of is that people who feel trapped in a corner don't have free will. What looks like grasping at straws may be a response to something else. Maybe, since the vote, a bunch of CO's no longer believe the BSA's promises. Losing a lot of CO's would cause even more problems. The only way to protect the CO's is to cover their portion and the only way to do that is to say all the money we have, or could possibly get, is enough.

Just another note to those that haven't refreshed their browsers, I split off sub thread about council financing so go there if you want to continue it.

National provides something else besides IP, they provide exclusivity. That means no competition for both youth and donors. Anyone can start a franchise if that goes away. Think about @Jameson76's council under that change. Parents do like the idea of scouts but they might go elsewhere if the summer camp is more fun and less classroom. And what might the donors start doing with some competition? I think that might cause more fear to CE's. When push comes to shove, CE's probably need donors more than camps.

Done.

I moved a bunch of posts about council finances and possible organization to a new thread: The name might change but this link should work. My apologies if you were confused by this but this sub thread really has little to do with the court case..

The same was said when Ma Bell was broken up,

Exactly. The MB counselors that require certification are usually much more fun.

I agree. We had a botanist in our troop that made nature MB fun for everyone. He'd get everyone looking at flowers, counting stamens and pistils and then classifying plants based on that. We were all blown away. While I really appreciate nature, I also appreciate my limits of knowledge. MB classes get boring when the counselor uses the pamphlet to learn the material.

So why was 66% ever mentioned if it's really something greater than 75%? Just curious as to where the 66 number came from. Again, I'm not blaming anyone as I certainly wouldn't have known

I don't know, I've never seen a wheel fall off a newer car or an engine fire from a fuel line not properly reinstalled. Older cars need more maintenance, maintenance costs money, people think "how hard could it be?", accidents happen. Is that causal?

That's a great project! I had to go to YouTube to watch the video.

How to deal with it may just involve reviewing the scout oath and law. I once had some scouts telling jokes that others found really offensive. I didn't think the jokes were that bad but, and this is what I told the tellers of the joke, that comedy has a very fine line between funny and pain. The hard part about humor is guessing how people will hear your jokes. You never know. The right thing to do when someone says your joke went too far is to be courteous, apologize and move on. As you said, many here have their own traumas to deal with and don't want to share the details. And that's okay. It's all about being kind, courteous and helpful.

But most COs don't have the desire, energy or whatever to be responsible so the simplest response is not to charter units. I don't see any councils that have those resources either. So where does that leave us? It could just be much smaller and better than before, fewer COs/units of higher quality. It would be nice if National had some way to develop that but let's be real, who is going to say fewer, better units is the better approach? Hence, that's why I think the facility use agreement is a bandaid. BSA is focused on the short-term of just getting through the bankruptcy and I understand that, but unless they also take a long view they'll be back in the same situation. Assuming they want to grow they need to find a practical way to ensure good oversight.

I believe that's a close description of trauma - one can't forget. So, I don't think it's just you.

I completely agree with this. However, there does need to be a discussion of what that practically entails. What's the true cost of chartering a troop or pack and if there's only a facility use agreement then who is going to cover those costs? Someone needs to be responsible, at the unit level, to make sure the rules are followed and the scouters are of good character. I assume that's the major cause of failure. Our CO insists on a COR that they trust go to the majority of events as they want to see the adults and scouts in action that they signed up to watch over. Who at the council will cover this if it's a facility only agreement? The facility use agreement is a bandaid trying to fix a much bigger problem. When I was an SM I felt responsible for every scout as if they were my kid. New adults got extra attention not just because I was trying to be helpful. This comment is less about the legal aspects and more about running a program parents will feel comfortable with.

So this is all your fault?

One thing that you didn't describe in your description of how your troop operates is how the plc evaluates how much fun the scouts really had. Something I've noticed in my troop is that the plc gets so focused on organizing an event that their definition of success is just having an event run. Whether half the scouts were bored to tears is not noticed. Getting an honest opinion from the scouts isn't as easy as one might hope. One patrol or two, you need honest feedback. Boring meetings or campouts usually stem from scouts passively sitting around during the event. Lecturing to teach skills will do that. Making a game of the skill will make it more fun. That takes a lot of effort.

I assume they have as much access to that information as we do. So, they're likely scrambling about figuring out how to deal with losses from covid. I do know that my council has lost staff. Whether they were laid off or found better jobs, I don't know.

@IrrationalGoat welcome to the forum. And thank you so much for writing. You're enthusiastic and are taking ownership. Honestly, your post is one of the best things I've seen lately. I'd certainly like to help out at your troop. But, to try and answer your questions. First of all, the patrol method is to help you delegate work so you don't burn out, which sounds like an issue. Adults like single patrols because it makes it easier for them. The problem, as you're finding, is that the scouts are getting bored. You're not bored at all, you're getting run ragged. That's because you're owning everything and doing all the planning. The main idea of patrol method is that each patrol has its own leadership that takes care of planning and running events that bring the program to those scouts. The work they do is work you don't have to do. It's a win for them because it alleviates their boredom from not having anything useful to do and it's a win for you because they do some of the work. So patrols help share work. Another great use of patrols is enabling fun and scouting has been called fun with a purpose. Competition between patrols can be fun. Patrol skits can make campouts fun. Having a smaller, tighter group of friends that patrols support can be fun. Notice that I've been real fuzzy about how much the patrols can do on their own. That depends on their maturity as a team and leadership. The more they can handle the less you have to, so it's really important that you develop the patrols and help them learn and grow. Your job is to work yourself out of your job, while caring for all those under you. Can they handle their own meals on campouts? Can they help their own patrol members advance? Can they create fun events for meetings and campouts? Each of these are hard enough to teach them if they've never done it before, so don't take it all on at once. I mentioned that patrols need to grow and learn. That applies to you as well. It also applies to the adults in your troop. Everyone needs to get on the same page about what each leader can do, what they need help with and the direction they're growing. One thing I've intentionally stayed away from is how you form your patrols. There is a way the BSA wants you to do it. I'll leave it at that. Good luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Please educate me.

This thread has gone from 18 yo scouts to following rules to bad beer humor to women scouters to substance abuse and a strange reference to Rabbinic Judaism. It's New Year's eve. If there were ever a year where it would help to end on a high note, this is it. Please help me out on this one.

A cat herding thread or a raccoon thread? I have bird feeders. And squirrels. So I got a bird feeder that shuts when the squirrels climb on it. Great, but what does this have to do with raccoons? Raccoons are not only smarter than squirrels, they are much heavier. They figured out if they just swing from the bird feeder they'll pull it off the tree and, voila, bird seed everywhere. I assume they shared with the squirrels. They did drag the feeder away and it took awhile to find it. I used their weight to my advantage and hung the feeder way out on the thin branches. Even the squirrels haven't figured it out. Then the hawk showed up.

There's a whole other thread on how that's not working. Feedback, scouts in an advisory council, volunteers etc. Rules work great when everyone believes in them. In my town it seems red lights are a suggestion for the first second - kind of like the 5 second rule for dropped food. The BSA, like most large organizations, is run by people that honestly believe they are like captains on a ship that make small changes to a rudder to move the entire organization in a new direction. Maybe a better analogy is, rather than a ship, we're just a large gas that is following its own rules of physics, with a leadership council making proclamations upon high. The only way to steer such an organization like a boat is to make prolific use of ropes, stones and boats, as grimly described in Matthew. No, the only way to control a large organization is to understand the directions it is inherently moving anyway. I used to believe I could change the direction the adults in my troop wanted to go. Of all the great ideas I found about scouting I was sure I could at least take small steps towards scouts taking on more ownership. But reality sucks. We'd talk, agree and have great plans, but half the adults just did what they always did. They kept ensuring there was extra gear when patrols forgot to check. They'd refuse to let the scouts to fail. I could explain what and why or could have created all sorts of rules, including ropes, rocks and boats, and those scouts never had to worry about running out of trash bags. If I had the energy to do it again, I'd have to accept the adults as part of the game. But back to the 18 year old scouts. Leadership is about figuring out how to motivate the people you have, not the people you want. It's less about rules and more about understanding what drives people. I'm not saying rules aren't needed, just that nearly everyone needs to agree on the rules, or they will be ignored. Merry Christmas, if that's what motivates you.