MattR

Barry, I agree with most of what you're saying. Mainly that a lot of adults don't get it. But one thing that hasn't changed is the desire of parents to raise sons that are responsible, resourceful, adventurous, and yes, even selfless. I think the challenge for scouts is training the adult leaders. Compare scouts to high school football. The training for a good coach is similar to a good SM, it takes a lot of time and passion. But the football coach has professional football to help sell his program, is paid, has equipment and gear, trainers and assistants, every game is described in the local paper, and tons of resources on how to coach football. Not only that but the goal of football is simple and easy for the kids to understand: win. The SM is a volunteer and gets a weekend course on how to sign off First Class requirements. Nothing really describes what boy led means, or how the outdoors works, or what an Eagle project is. And what is the goal? Really, you're taking someone that has a pee-wee level of coaching and putting him in a high school environment. It's no wonder the adults aren't so good in scouting. National's response is JTE, a program where they try to improve units via a two page document. If you're in a unit that isn't doing it right and you've never seen it done right, then those two pages won't do much. Can you imagine giving a peewee coach a two page paper on how to coach a high school football program? Rather, there must be people somewhere that understand how to turn a unit around. Get them together. They'll come up with something good. Then share it. I'd use it. Something like Top Gun for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts? Or why not ranks for adults? Even a good book that describes how all this works would help.

Eagledad, don't give up. I just had a fantastic campout with my troop. The SPL showed true leadership and he didn't even know it. He started a snowball fight with some older scouts, which eventually brought in the rest of the troop, followed by the adults. After an hour we were exhausted and soaking wet, so we called a truce. I told the SPL that what he did was a perfect example of leadership and to keep doing it. So on Saturday night he organized a game and all I could think was nobody would join him, but most did. I finally think my troop is moving in the right direction. It still works, even without hep from Texas.

Geez JoeBob, maybe I should get a white cowboy hat and sunglasses as we must be related. I think there are a couple of things going on. One is that the boys know crap when they see it and the minimum requirements for getting Eagle, at least the way most troops operate, is mostly crap. A few years ago I asked some older scouts that didn't really do much for the troop, but would bust their butts on summer camp staff what the deal was and they told me they knew they were critical for the success of the camp but the troop didn't need their help. They were right. Next, boys are afraid to compete or challenge themselves in something they don't feel comfortable with. The 14 and 15 year olds are starting to see how big the world is and how small they are and their reaction is to be cool and ignore it when I think they're insecure. Furthermore, peer pressure is horrible after puberty and even though there are some scouts that want to push themselves, they are encouraged not to. Third, culture has lots of momentum and it's the culture that needs to change. 11 and 12 year olds will just jump in and do it. 13-15 year olds will only do it if they see it. 16 and 17 year olds will not change, so they will either help out or need to be sidelined. Finally, sitting around and taking it easy is like dessert, good for your soul but easily abused. So, the question I started a few days ago with my ASMs is how do we change the culture to include more challenge. We don't want every campout to be Seal Boot Camp but .... Challenge will be the norm and being lazy is rare and appreciated. Rank requirements will be a challenge because they will have to show mastery, not just squeak by. Most events will have a challenge built in, preferably patrol based. I have no idea if this will work. Some scouts will drop and that's fine. Some will thrive and that's who I want to do this for. I disagree with Engineer61. My son, who is now 22, recently told me that he now understands what scouting is about. This is the kid that was shy as could be when he joined scouts but was all in for the adventure when he left. It still works. Hang in there. Do your best. Help a few kids. Ignore the rest.

Nope, they go to bed when they're tired, and after the first night that's usually before any official light's out or the adults. The younger kids tend to go to sleep earlier. By 10 the SPL and PLs go around and check that everyone is in their tents. So I guess it's not a lights out rule so much as a be in your tent rule so we know there aren't any lost scouts.

They can stay up all night as far as I'm concerned. They are expected to be at flags, participate in the program, and be packed up, ready to go on Sunday at a predetermined time. They are expected to live the Scout Oath and Law. Every meal they choose to eat requires protein. Other than that, it's up to the PL. So, if they can't wake up in time Saturday morning then, gee, no time for breakfast because they need to be at flags. That happens once and then they realize they need to get up, which means they need to go to sleep, .... I'm no longer responsible for nagging kids and they can figure it out themselves. win-win.

I have a hunch that this problem is The one problem that the BSA should solve to make everything better; help struggling packs thrive. That would solve the Cub Scout membership problem and would in turn solve the Boy Scout membership problem. My hat is off to those that are doing super human service to these units. It's been my experience that roughly 25% of any non-profit organization will volunteer and help out. So either you're unlucky in the parents you have or just maybe they don't see the it the way you do. You see how a pack should run but they don't. What if you found a pack that does work and for 6 months combined the two packs. At the end you talk to all the parents and ask them if they're interested and what do they think they can do.to make the old pack look like the good one. Maybe if they see it done right you can get the 25% to help out.

Stosh, often I wonder if working with 11 year olds might be easier when it comes to leadership. Sure, you have to ask lots of questions but they aren't afraid to try. 16 and 17 year olds are willing to try and push themselves, as do 11 year olds, but there's a gap between 13 to 15 where being cool and not rocking the boat is more important than challenging yourself. Right now I have few 16-17 year old scouts and am struggling with this.

I was thinking of that game as well. That game caught me hook line and sinker. I was upset with it and refused to be a part of it. As usual, my guess is someone took a good idea and abused it. In this case they kept up the charade for a few days rather than, say, an hour. Which is probably too long for scouts.

ScouterCA, I agree, it's a cluster fart in a mummy bag. And your son has tried. He tried talking to the adults (who apparently are all missing out on what scouting is about). He talked to the boy and that failed. He found another troop that really likes him. At the same time, while your son has been driven to tears by this boy, he is "still firmly planted in this troop." Why? This might be a good place to start a discussion with your son. Obviously there's something he likes about his first troop. And more obviously there's a bully in it that's ruining it for him and probably others as well. He could just walk away but he hasn't. What I mean by confronting the problem is that your son doesn't know how to deal with a bully. That's the crux of the problem. Most kids don't know how to handle this because they don't have to figure it out. The bully feeds off of your son's misery and probably enjoyed having your son talk to him and tell him how hurtful words are. When your son cries the bully is having a field day. Shy of violence (and that's an important thing to consider), this is an opportunity for your son to gain confidence in dealing with dirt bags. This kid isn't bullying your son because your son is advancing faster than he is, he's bullying your son because he gets a response. Unless your son is home schooled until he graduates, switching troops isn't going to solve the problem if they end up in the same school. This boy is learning from his mom. My guess is she treats him like garbage at home and he's trying to gain confidence the only way he knows how. Getting some scouter to back up your son would be a great way for him to gain confidence, so I'd start talking to those higher up. Maybe there are programs at a local school for learning how to respond to bullies, and when to pull in an adult. I wouldn't teach this, find a teacher in a school that deals with butt heads daily. Honestly, it sounds like it would be better for your son to leave this troop (how wrong can it be?), but if he can leave it on his own terms, and not that of the bully, then he wins. Another option is leave now, but still learn to deal with bullies so this won't happen in the future.

One thing that caught my eye is that this other boy is polite around adults and a bully around the boys. So, who's solving the problems in this troop? Not the boys. I'm guessing that a lot of boys in this troop are seeing this and none of them are standing up for what's right. That's where the silver lining to this problem lies. Whether or not you can do anything to change this, I don't know. But it's something to look for in another troop. I've been working with the boys in my troop to take ownership of these types of problems and they need constant encouragement. This is not easy for them. While that's the crux of the problem, there's another opportunity to work with your son on dealing with bullies. He doesn't want to confront the problem either. Understandably, he's upset and wants it to go away. One kid is keeping your son away from his friends. Going to another troop will not solve that problem. Has your son talked to his friends to see what they think about the bully? Just a guess, but if half the kids in his patrol knew what was going on and stood up for your son the next time this happens, it would end. Just knowing that he had friends that are empathetic to his problems would likely give him enough courage to face this alone.

Eagle is an attitude. How hard will someone push themselves to do the right thing. Whether service to help an elderly couple shovel their sidewalk or hiking out of the Grand Canyon, it still requires going above and beyond. Some that do the requirements have the attitude. Many don't. A few have the attitude but don't do the requirements. What this has to do with parents or scoutmasters is more related to chance. Some of this attitude is trainable and I suppose the more a scout sees it the more he's likely to absorb it -- so plus one for the active parents. At the same time there's also a genetic component. Some kids just have it when they show up from cub scouts and I'm guessing the parents just get in the way in that case. My son, at age 22, thanked me for taking him on all those campouts and service projects yet, when he started, he was very timid. I would say I've seen a closer correspondence between attitude and participation then attitude and rank.

Scout toss: get all of your patrol and all it's stuff over an orange mesh fence without touching the fence. usually this involves tossing the smaller scouts over. Assuming there's plenty of snow to land in, it's a lot of fun.

Boy, Did I Get A Wrong Number. Google works

My dog has a software compass, he has to walk while he poops to get a good bearing. I once saw a demonstration while standing directly on the equator that suggested that your balance is a bit worse there. And maybe it was a bit worse. Anyway, if dogs can sense electrical fields the way dolphins do, then who knows.

To me, I'd be much more grateful if someone said L'Shana Tova to me during the High Holidays than Happy Hanukkah now (especially considering Hanukkah is long over). Saying Happy Hanukkah now is just saying the Jewish version of Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays is just the same. What holiday? Bottom line is I'm just as content hearing Merry Christmas as anything else and just taking it for what it is: good will. Life is too short to get in a knot over this. In a way, I do feel sorry for Christians in that Christmas seems to be much more cultural and commercial than religious. One of the nice things about being a minority is that your holidays aren't hijacked by commercialism. So, for those of you for which Christmas is an important day to reflect about what Christ means to you, Merry Christmas.

BW, I'm not sure what your controls will be to keep your size down but I'd suggest caution with not allowing any new scouts in as it might cause troubles down the road. If 38 is where you want to be and you're running a great program and no scouts leave for 2 or 3 years then you won't have any new scouts for this period. After this time the webelos might come and see that there are no younger scouts and might find another troop more welcoming. Another problem is that a year or so after that you'll have a bubble in your leadership. This is a real challenge. I've always felt that there has to be some new scouts every year. I'd limit the size of the troop by limiting the number of new scouts allowed every year. If 8 scouts a year would keep the membership at roughly 38 then maybe some times the number would go to 40 or 44 and sometimes it might come down to 32, but there would always be new scouts.

Periochas, yes he really wanted the rank. His story is different than most. He didn't join scouts until 3 years ago. And he didn't wake up until fairly late in the process. He got First Class with 17 months to go. I've seen too many Eagles that got there because mom and dad were hovercraft and watched these details. This scout's parents didn't understand what was going on. So I know this scout wanted it. He wants the recognition. That has been a driving force and a good one to bring out his character. I agree with you that his character is worth more than a patch, but he won't see that for a long time. I don't have a problem using recognition to motivate a boy to develop his character. Adults have Silver Beavers, District Awards of Merit, and Position of the Year awards, so I'd like to let this scout know, and for a bunch of others to see, that character is important. If I were a scout and I compared the Eagle award and all the hoopla with it to a handshake from the SM, it would be very clear what has higher importance, yet this is backward to what I'd like it to be. Ideally, I'd just hold all scouts to the higher character bar, and maybe I might, but for the scout that just wants to do the right thing and is not interested in the patch, I'd like to recognize that so they find a reason to exercise their character. While I like Dr Who, the First Class emblem sounds much better to me. Giving him a sonic screw driver patch along with it would be fun, though.

blw2, I wasn't thinking of the Eagle emblem, just a soaring eagle, but I like the idea of the First Class emblem. Better to stay away from eagles all together. Stosh, I agree with you that an active 18 year old that "gets it" is worth more than the eagle rank, but this scout doesn't understand that. He really wanted the rank. That challenge was a huge motivation. Part of the problem is my troop puts a lot of emphasis on Eagle rank yet we don't know how to recognize scout spirit. We have an honor scout each COH but that's nothing compared to your own Eagle COH. I guess the real question is how do we recognize exceptional scout spirit to the extent that we recognize Eagle? Eagle is easy to recognize - check boxes to measure progress, court of honor, patches, and speeches to show recognition. The problem with Eagle is that the most important part of Eagle, scout spirit, is buried under a ton of bureaucracy. Scout spirit isn't about doing the absolute bare minimum to get recognition. Doing 1200 lines of requirements for merit badges has little to do with an Eagle Charge or Oath. Do I take this plaque and make it the troop Scout Spirit award and present it to scouts solely based on cheerful service and active participation? No nagging, no check boxes, no hand holding, no whining about requirements, just know what's right and do it. Present yourself to the committee and make your case whenever you want. They'll talk to other scouts to verify what you say and tell you if you meet the standard. If they say yes on your 18th birthday then you get a plaque, otherwise you can talk about how to improve yourself. This whole thing would just be a way to let the scouts know that scout spirit is highly valued.

I found a nice quote: "Reputation is what men and women think of us; character is what God and angels know of us." --Thomas Paine Maybe I can put it on a plaque and present it to him. Not sure if putting an eagle with it would be a good idea or not.

I did tell him I'd write a letter of recommendation for any place. The idea of writing it now and giving it to him is a good idea. I was thinking about a story about someone that dealt with failure well. Lincoln was a complete failure until he became president. Or maybe something along the lines of "Not only is character what you do when nobody is looking, but nobody can give it to you or pin it on you. You have to earn it."

I have a scout that can't get Eagle. He's one of the best scouts I've ever had. More of an Eagle than most I've seen. He was a great SPL and everyone looked up to him. But, he didn't pay attention to the clock and did his Life board of review late. Part of this was due to the fact that he was putting so much time into the troop, While he is ultimately responsible, I also let him down. I think of all the scouts we've nagged to get things done on time, that don't come close to the caliber of this scout, and nobody paid attention because they just assumed he was taking care of everything. I can deal with my own stupidity, but what do I tell this scout? A lot of people say Eagle is junk but this kid made something of himself, learned a lot, and did some amazing things for the sole purpose of getting that medal. I already talked to him and said there was a possibility the appeals process wouldn't work (and it didn't) and I told him he is who he is because of what he's done, and not because of a patch and he understands that. But still, any ideas how to recognize this scout for what he is?

The only way to get to the bottom of this great mystery is over a beer. We will also have plenty of leftover bird, so come on over.

So two half hitches is still the same as a clove hitch? But by reversing the second hitch, in either case, you're saying it's a better knot as it won't come loose. You just need a new name for reversing the second hitch. By the powers vested in me, I now pronounce this new knot the JobBob Hitch. I agree that a clove hitch won't hold a canoe. Been there done that. While looking at images for this great debate I found the spar hitch, rolling hitch, and constrictor hitch, http://scoutpioneering.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/hitches1.jpg, all of which seem like they'd hold the canoe better. The spar hitch was originally meant to keep horses from wandering, so kind of like a canoe. The constrictor looks easy and a bit more secure than the spar. There's also a knot called a double constrictor. Enough with knots. Time to start thinking about big bird, and how she's going to be cooked.

Busted JoeBob, that second image is wrong. For a double half hitch the two ends of the rope go out opposite directions from each other (if that makes any sense at all) and not out the same side as shown in the photo. Anyway, google double half hitch and you won't see another photo like the one from bollweeviltroop99. It is a clove hitch on a rope. I haven't a clue if it makes a difference, though.

The requirements for Eagle are busy work. That's not to say that all the Eagle scouts are junior paper pushers, but quite a few are. If what we preach is outdoor skills and service then make those the requirements for Eagle. I really like the "take your patrol on a backpacking trip" for First Class. That's a great test of skill. Service hours for Star and Life are a joke. 21 merit badges where most seem to be doable in 3 hours could be completely revamped. I'd rather see 10 merit badges that take 50 hours each. Scouts would really know first aid if they spent 50 hours on it. There really are few tests of skill in all the requirements. If a boy passes a test of skill then he'll respect it. If it's just going through the motions then he won't respect it. The real problem is that scouts know bs when they see it. They know it's busy work but they also know we make a big deal out of it. So they do the busy work and then they forget about it. It's not the scouts, it's the adults, as usual.