MattR

TAHAWK, within Judaism belief in God is kind of a fuzzy idea. Doing good is much more concrete than a definition of God with which to believe in. So while God is central to the universe and human spirit, God is not really defined anywhere. "To struggle with God" is a very Jewish thing (and the meaning of the word Israel). There might be some debate about atheistic Jews, but certainly not agnostic.

Without a doubt, single parent kids and no parent kids have more problems in my troop. My wife was the softy and I was the hard one (but I bought the dog!). Kids need both. Not sure if divorce is cause or effect. Some of the things I hear the parents/guardians say is amazing. I can work with the boy but sometimes I just feel like slapping the parents up side the head. My parents have been married 64 years, I've been married 27. One brother has been married 35. Another got a divorce but didn't have kids. The common theme in the successful marriages is: plenty of being mad at each other, respect, a few cherished moments of bliss, and the ability to put up with each other. My grandparents went through a period of 5 years where they didn't talk to each other. By the time they had grand kids that was long forgot and they were the favorite grand parents. Community seems to be nearly as important as two parents. Lots of adults watching lots of kids. Parents helping parents. We can measure divorce rate but I'm not sure we can measure community. If my troop was part of a bigger community it would be that much stronger.

Black pots have nothing to do with black food. I have a few scouts that figure it's easier to burn the food and say they enjoy it rather than cook it right, so I figure you might rather say you like black pots than clean ones. I know, bad joke. As far as dark pots absorbing heat better, I'd think as the soaped pot gets black, it too will absorb heat better. I do remember that our pots never got that clean.

Somebody could, and probably should, write a book on what boy led is and how to get there. Nobody will say their troop is adult led as a complement, so I guess boy led means whatever anybody wants. Here's another definition. Boy led is really a crock. Yes, the adults set boundaries, and we just had a thread on this subject, but doesn't a good SM treat his SPL the way the SPL should treat the PLs, the way the PL should treat the scouts? Doesn't a good leader let those led call the shots in their domain? Let them suffer the consequences and enjoy the rewards? Doesn't the leader look out for his people? They also train when needed. They ask questions. They talk up success. So maybe it is SM led. But with a good attitude and a good heart, the SM is developing future SMs, the SPL is developing future SPLs, all the way down to a 13 year old developing a new First Class scout that can help his patrol. If the SPL is 17 and really gets it then the SM really doesn't have anything to do, but if the SPL is 12 then likely the SM has a lot of coaching to do. If the PLs are 15 and owns their patrols then maybe the SPL doesn't have much to do but if the PLs are 12 then likely the SPL has his hands full. Is there really a difference between the SM and the boys? Yes, there are safety issues, but for the usual leadership things maybe the difference is not nearly as profound as people make it. ​Maybe the question should be is the troop developing leaders at all levels, or is there one leader and a bunch of managers, or one dictator and a bunch of peons?

Nope! And I won't put one in my pack either You guys sound like the scouts that are proud to eat burnt food I like clean pots, what can I say. But I suspect a lot of the need was from using the fire before we had coals. That and we used pine. That stuff has a lot of soot.

Good point, DuctTape. When I was younger we cooked over fires and soaped pots. We got very good at making coals and setting up rocks to be just the right height off the heat. And there were no hot spots. We didn't have patrol boxes or stoves or any of those headaches (you bring the pot, you bring the spoon, you bring the soap, we're good).We did cook as a patrol except for making starch-on-a-stick types of things. Right now I'm battling to get patrols to just bring what they need. Few adults see the point. I brought up the idea of cooking over a fire and the boys are interested. One problem we have is that there is usually a fire ban in the summer and we'd have to bring a truck load of wood in the winter. We could do charcoal.

I used to ride my bike there as a kid. The first troop I joined as a boy, Devon 50, is just a few miles from Valley Forge. They might have a better idea so ask them. Google Devon 50. To this day I don't know why they are called Devon 50 and not just 50, but they were formed in 1927 so that might have something to do with it.

I figured out the importance of respect about a year ago. Since then I've been trying to develop it. At tonight's ASM meeting I was training the adults on respect and part of it was defining the line between adult and scout responsibilities. Most of the ASMs like it but one of them is a problem. The boys flags aren't good enough so let's make them re do the flags. Their patrol names are no good. Their cheers aren't the right length so let's get the SPL to make them change it. I reminded him that the patrol he is most upset with just won all the team based competitions at the camporee last weekend (camp wide). They are a bunch of misfits but they were a team. One of their scouts ages out in a month and he's still a Tenderfoot. But he likes scouts. The PL asked for help on teamwork and I spent the entire month working with him and his patrol. (Yes, eventually it will be the SPL doing this but I have to figure it out myself first) In the meantime, another PL saw the results and asked me if I could help him out with getting scouts to listen to him. We started talking about respect and servant leadership. The other thing I just learned is scouts are a lot more receptive to new ideas when they have a problem they want to solve.

I wouldn't say he's delusional. It probably depends on the maturity of the boys. We just went to camporee and had 40 boys with 4 or 5 trained adults and enough other parents to drive. The trained adults ate very well, didn't do much other than keep a watch on the new parents, and had a good time. There were a couple of small issues but nothing a couple of adults couldn't handle. We are by no means close to GBB status and I want to get there, but we are at the point where I trust the PLC to keep things safe. The problem with only having two adults with 50 boys is that if one boy gets sick then everyone has to go home. With 50 boys it seems to happen too often. The other issue is rides to and from camp. As others have said, why drive back and forth twice when you can do it once and enjoy the outdoors?

Eagledad, when I went to pick up my son from NYLT many years ago I asked one of the course directors what I needed to do to further what my son learned and he didn't know what to say. So I asked him what the number one thing I should work on with the scouts that took the course and he finally said to get everyone in the troop wearing their uniform correctly. That's leadership? Your idea of ticket items and working with the SM is great, but why can't the people that designed this course figure that out?

It sounds like your line, Stosh, is the Scout Oath and Law. I like the part about encouraging scouts to solve leadership problems, especially if they aren't the leader. SM bob, is it that the boys are not allowed to have individuality or they are not allowed to solve problems or even have problems? Society tries to cram in so much that everything has to fit just right to do as much as we do. Consequently there's no room for errors, problems or failure, or more importantly, solving errors, problems or failure. Another aspect of this seems to be that the boys need to know there is a solution to their problem. A lot of times it's the case that the boy doesn't know what he doesn't know. That seems to be what the adults can help with. We have had some luck. One PL was complaining to his dad that he wasn't doing anything because his patrol was doing everything and the dad just about slapped him in the head and told him that was the entire idea.

Stosh, it sounds like you'd do the same thing I would. My only point was that when push comes to shove, and a scout is not acting in a way you want, whether it be too lazy or un scout like or whatever, you will, as a last resort, remove the scout from his position of responsibility. If the PL is lazy then the SPL has to work with him, but if the SPL doesn't, then you'll work with the SPL, and if the SPL doesn't care then you'll remove the SPL. That means he has to do as you say and he does report to you. Now, there's a big difference between removing a leader because he's lazy and removing him because he does not do exactly as you say on everything. There is a line in there somewhere and figuring out where it is and making sure everyone knows what it is is prudent. I'm not sure it's that easy to find that line because it is a judgment call. If they say they want to do Troop Method rather than Patrol Method, maybe that's an easy decision. It's a little harder if they say they will only cook prepackaged meals bought in the freezer section. That's certainly not what I'd call camping, but I don't want lists of approval signatures.

Sounds good. So you're talking to the SPL and the SPL handles this as he sees fit. The assumption is that the SPL "gets it" "If the SPL needs some guidance." What if he needs more than guidance? What if just flat out doesn't care? If he's the one that started the idea of going to the mall and is adamant about it. Maybe he just wants to push your buttons. Further, the rest of the troop goes along with it just to see what happens. Then will you replace the SPL? (and I assume this is after trying repeatedly to get him understand what's going on.) If you would, and the boy knows it, then in essence you could step in and tell him what to do. ​If the 11 year olds can do what they wish then what happens when they don't want to wash dishes? There is a standard and it sounds like you would be the one enforcing it the next time they want something signed off. Doesn't this get back to my point that there are things the SM decides and things the scouts decide? The bigger issue seems to be clearly specifying the distinction and staying true to it. I ask them all the time. They rarely want to change anything. It's frustrating. The place I see the most confidence in taking ownership is with the troop guides. It's always been this way. Maybe it's obvious what the new scouts need. ​Good points.

Stosh and Barry, I'm not sure I understand the differences between the two of you on this. Let's say a PL tells everyone at the PLC that he's going to take his patrol on a hike. But he gets lazy, blows it off, and at the last moment scraps the hike and plays video games instead. How would each of you handle this? If the PLC decides that the outdoors is just a bore and they'd rather take the troop to the mall to hang out and check out the girls, even though the 11 year olds aren't interested, how do you handle this? If a boy in a patrol is just not advancing, you talk to the PL, and he just doesn't care, what do you do? These are all examples of typical teenage stuff that just drives a lot of adults to step in and start ordering kids around. Is there a minimum standard to letting the boys decide? My view has always been there's a very clear, simple distinction between what the boys decide and what the adults decide. I'm not sure that's so easy to implement. I encourage my scouts to make changes, tell me what they'd like to change, or don't like, and they don't seem to want to change anything. So how do I know if they really like it the way it is or just don't think they can really make a change?

To me, there seems to be a big gap between the BSA's potential and where it is now. Some units are doing great and a lot are blundering along. For those that are doing great they probably sell themselves irrespective of whatever national does. Giving the others what they need would help a lot. Win locally and everyone can ignore what the global wing nuts think or say. I've always thought scouting is this strange mix of things that just works. It's character and adventure and leadership and fun. And it's not just sports or STEM or band. It's well rounded where a lot of other things are focused on very narrow fields. I think that's both a strength and a weakness. A strength because the outcomes are boys that are well rounded and a weakness because we seem to be a society focused on specializing and winning. Instead, scouts gets to the crux of life. Be happy and helpful when the crap hits the fan. I'm not sure how to put that in PC speak but it is enticing to me as a parent.

What you're trying to do is the right thing. A lot of the training assumes you already have a boy led/patrol method troop. But it's a lot harder to transform a troop. A couple of years ago the light bulb went off with me and it's been a very slow trial and error approach for me. It would be really nice if national put together info on how to do this. Some lessons I've learned: Get the best scouts as patrol leaders. Too often it's, nah, I don't want to do it, it's your turn. We have a nomination process, like OA, to even be eligible to be PL. Also, one ASPL is more than enough. More than that is just dead weight. Mutual respect between adults and scouts is paramount. I fight for my PLs. Trust goes two ways and without it, nothing else will work. Respect their opinion and ask for it often. Make a very clear distinction between what the scouts are responsible for and what the adults are responsible for. The simpler that list the better. If there's confusion then the boys will always back off and give the adults the leadership. You set the boundaries. Within those boundaries, stay out. Do you really need to decide when the boys wake up? Or do you just need to let them know when flags is, and that they will be there? Older scouts need purpose. It's more than just having fun. Older boys that don't have something important to do, and not just made up responsibility, will fade away. At the same time, older scouts do need some time to hang with each other. It's like ice cream, too much is bad, too little is harsh, but there is a sweet spot. Spend time having fun with your scouts so when you have to tell them something they don't want to hear they'll still listen. If all you do is bring them bad news they will tune you out. There are different leadership styles and every boy is different. There are different ways to create enthusiasm and it's up to the boy leader to figure it out. Most boys know the right thing to do. Whether they do it is another thing. So your job is to get them to decide what it is they should do, and then hold them to it. Boys are incredible at forgetting anything. Text messages and email are lost in the ether. The message needs to be repeated constantly. A change of anything seems to take at least 6 months. Boys can also create fun out of most anything, so give them time for it to develop. As other's have mentioned, leadership is about teamwork and caring about the team. Caring about others is the central point of the scout oath. Repeat this before you ask them to solve a people problem. Teamwork is about giving everyone a job that's important. Yep, the main job for the new scout may be nothing more than carrying the patrol flag but if it makes him part of the team then it's good, and it's one less thing for the PL to do (except he will have to remind him for awhile). It's hard to lead a dysfunctional team. Give the leader scouts that will listen. Or at least make sure it's not that every kid in the patrol can't focus on even eating without wondering off in the weeds (been there). Come up with some way to measure, even if it's qualitatively, how well things are going. I came up with a leadership rubric just to explain what I was looking for and I graded the troop for all sorts of categories. It works very well to explain what boy led means. 300' is a good idea, even if it's only 100. The program is important. I'm on a challenge kick. Skills that can be improved on, new ideas. Every campout shouldn't be seal training but there is a tendency to get into ruts. Most scouts don't understand the creative process so you might have to help them generate ideas they can pick from. Heck, the scouts are better than the adults in my troop when it comes to good ideas. Since you're not the SM, maybe you could volunteer to work with one patrol as a patrol mentor. I guess my point is that the training material you mention will not make a leader. Going out and leading will make a leader. Yes, there are some good tidbits in the training but that's all they are, tidbits. Another thing is that words don't soak in to boys. A classroom where you pontificate and play games that simulate real scenarios will not help a boy become a leader. You can't tell him to be enthusiastic. Show him. Give him a problem to solve. Show him the skills. Make him go do it. Ask him how it went. Repeat. Ask for help from someone you respect. Have fun. Expect things to go wrong. It's a slow process. Ignore those that complain and are unwilling to help. Find adults you can work with and share your ideas. This is hard doing it alone. Good luck. Let us know what works.

Big. Huge. Red. Flags. But at the same time I'd like to buy you a beer because you obviously care about the boys. Some questions I'd ask first are what do the families think of this? A problem that needs solving? They don't care? They like the CC and husband? Next, other than the boys, what's keeping you there? Where do you meet? What is it about this CO that you like? If the CO doesn't matter and the boys are all that matter, and everyone agrees with this then here is one option, I'm sure there are more. Find someone that would be a new CC. Between the two of you, find a new CO. Create a new troop and for those that want to follow you, help them transfer to the new troop. It costs $1 per person. You lose the money the old troop had, but that's probably nothing because the finances are a mess. You also lose the gear. But you have a very clean break. Then you can get back to being a SM. Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

Maybe we should just change Reverent to Humble. Here's a nice quote I like: Humility -- true humility -- is one of the most expansive and life-enhancing of all virtues. It does not mean undervaluing yourself. It means valuing other people. It signals a certain openness to life's grandeur and the willingness to be surprised, uplifted, by goodness wherever one finds it.... Humility, then, is more than just a virtue: it is a form of perception, a language in which the "I" is silent so that I can hear the "Thou", the unspoken call beneath human speech, the Divine whisper within all that moves, the voice of otherness that calls me to redeem its loneliness with the touch of love. Humility is what opens us to the world.

Maybe the first talk should be with your son. If your son had fun staying up until 3 or 4am then maybe a discussion about consequences is appropriate. If he couldn't get to sleep because of a couple of self centered scouts, then that's a different thing. It could be time to coach him on some options. Is there anyone he could talk to about asking the scouts to keep quiet? Is there an option for him to sleep outside in a tent? Maybe with you? At least until he gets bigger or finds another buddy to share a tent with? My guess is the SM understands that the average 11 year old can't deal with 3am nights. If he said it was rough then he probably agrees with you. If so, putting him on the defensive won't help your son's problem. That all said, if it were my troop and a couple of older scouts were being that selfish I'd ask the SPL what happened. If it was the SPL we'd have a different talk about looking out for everyone in the troop. In the meantime, I'd ask the parents to have some patience, making mistakes and learning from them is part of the process.

Punishment or consequence are tools, and like any tool can be abused. If they're used with the intent that it helps a scout mature, it's tough love and can be useful. If they're used to get rid of a problem then it's wrong. Since JoeBob was with the PLC when they came up with their plan I'm sure it wasn't Lord of the Flies. There's something else going on here. Boys don't much think about what is right so much as they recognize what works. If the scouts don't stand up to misbehavior and only the SM will do anything about it then the rules are simple - be "good" when the SM is around and have "fun" the rest of the time. After doing it enough the scouts get into a habit and go so far as to not even notice the contradictions. It's not that they lie when confronted, they don't even see that what they did was wrong. I have two scouts right now that deny everything and they honestly believe it. I'm working with my PLC to get the majority of the scouts to confront bad behavior. And likely these boys will change. But what if they only recognizes that when you're at scouts you need to be "good" and you can have "fun" at school? Doesn't this get to Barry's point, at least to me it's his point, that what we really want to do is instill selfless behavior in the scouts? Getting a boy to stop using other kids for his amusement is a start, but following that with giving him experience at helping others might just light a flame inside him.

Change of heart? How about oak? There are several actors here. There's you, Bad Eagle, Tenderfoot, and the Troop. The troop can be broken into those that see Bad Eagle's behavior as a problem and those that don't care. Bad Eagle has no incentive to change. He's worked the system. Tenderfoot has the most incentive to change after being embarrassed by Bad Eagle. A little effort from an adult, or especially some scouts, would turn his scouting career around. The scouts that see Bad Eagle's behavior for what it is probably want something to change, they just aren't sure what. They listen to your SM minutes and see an Eagle scout that's an ass. That's conflict. Start with the Troop. How about at your SM minute you also say that knowing right from wrong isn't good enough, that standing up for it is also important, and BTW come talk to me if you see it in the troop. You may need to pull aside a couple of scouts and ask them if they saw it. If you get a few scouts that saw something and explicitly said it was wrong then you have something. Pick the 3 most mature. Talk to them. Ask them why they didn't stand up for Tenderfoot. Tell them your concerns that Tenderfoot doesn't want to be a rat. Ask what should be done to both Bad Eagle and Tenderfoot. Likely they will bring forth a much bigger 2x4 than you. Ignore the temptation. Your asking them how to deal with this will give them confidence, It will also reinforce that the Scout Law means something. Then talk to Tenderfoot. Assuming there are scouts that didn't like what they saw, let him know. Ask him if he'd like to advance but is struggling with something you can help him with. If he just doesn't want to advance, that's fine too. Maybe you can encourage the Three to work with Tenderfoot. If you could get that to happen then it doesn't much matter what happens with Bad Eagle, you'll have made a big improvement with those 4 scouts. That leaves Bad Eagle. There are 2 parts to the 2x4. First, in no uncertain terms, he's done wrong, there are consequences, getting thrown out of the troop is one of them. It's his choice. Second, it will take a lot of time and praise to change his behavior. Ask him what he's going to do to make up for what he's done. He could start by apologizing to Tenderfoot. If it's honest then praise him. Then ask him to work with Tenderfoot so he can get First Class by August. If he bites then great, everyone wins. If not, you're teaching the rest of the troop to stand up to his behavior.

I don't know much about this boy or the rest of his troop. It may be that the boys have a clique and he's not in it, or it might be that this boy is just shy or that he's difficult when adults aren't around, or, who knows. I currently have a scout that is 13, Star, went to jambo, goes to multiple places to get merit badges, goes on every campout he can, is very enthusiastic, always says hi to me, and still, is not in OA. When I asked some scouts why, they rolled their eyes and explained that this boy is a very different kid when the adults aren't around. I don't think he's a bad kid, he just doesn't know how to control himself. Some good leaders start off real obnoxious. I'd suggest the boy in the OP start by asking his PL why he wasn't elected. If his PL replies, "you're a dork" then maybe the boy doesn't want to be in the OA with that group. But if the PL says, "you never help clean and always have an excuse to not help out" then maybe it's time to listen. P18Alex, advocacy is a solution to a problem, but if the problem is not the one that needs to be solved then it might not be any different then the mom meddling.

JoeBob, you reminded me of something else. Namely, get someone else to swing the 2x4, preferably the PLC. I'm guessing that having your peers tell you to straighten up is a much stronger message than having an adult tell you.

I think you're getting to the heart of motivation. He won't change until he wants to change. And he won't want to change until he sees that he's made a mistake and that someone would like to help him. Just guessing but he's 14 and Eagle so either mom and dad are doing all the work or he's a very bright but self centered kid. Anyway, I'd start with a SMC. Ask him what an Eagle scout is and does. Write it down. Ask for details. He may need some coaching to get it out but write down his words. Next, review the incident. Ask for details. Compare what he said in general to what he did in this specific case. The goal is to find out if he see's whether he made a mistake. If so, you're most of the way there. Ask him how he can atone for his mistakes. If he's willing to try then you'll end up with a great kid. If he doesn't see the mistake, well, before you reach him you have to get his attention. That usually involves something like a 2x4 with a nail in the end of it. I'd withhold any palms until he can prove he can walk the walk. I wouldn't go into details of what that means because he obviously knows how to do the minimum amount of work. Tell him when he gets frustrated he can ask for a SMC and you're more than willing to talk. And if he wants to talk bring out what you wrote and just go over it again. If it takes a year that's ok. It will give him some time to mature.

That's not allowed either. Kids might get rope burns.