MattR

Here's my two cents from 50,000 feet. The boys came up with an idea (hooray for them for just doing that) that may have come across as a surprise to a bunch of parents that don't have the money this time of year. Some parents came back with a knee jerk reaction that was way off base. The parents are clueless. No matter what, this is not a SM issue. There's a problem here between the parents and the PLC. If I were in this situation I'd talk to some of the parents and find out what's bugging them about the party. I'd tell them the party is optional and no, I will not pay for it. If the parents don't want to pay for it then I'd take that back to the PLC and tell them they have a problem to solve. I would also ignore the obnoxious parents. This is about the boys. They don't seem to be upset with how the troop is running, and that's all that matters.

What I think he's saying is he doesn't trust the PLC/older scouts to do the right thing. They likely won't if they don't have good support and training. I'd talk to the older scouts about this. They will make mistakes but hopefully the support is there to correct them. At least that's what I'm counting on for my troop.

Yes, we also have summer camp, but no, I don't go on everything. I usually pick one event. While I'd love to go on every trip, and make every campout a 3 day weekend, it ain't so. I have a big troop and dads that like the outdoors. We have two HA trips because most are limited to 12 people and we have more than 12 that want to go. If we have two inexpensive trips then a lot of scouts want to go on both. There's an age, around 16, where there are scouts that go on everything. They really enjoy the week long trips. That's the hook that keeps kids in my troop. When I talk to scouts that age out about good memories, most of them are high adventure, so I push high adventure.

"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans." - Allen Saunders

We did that for a high adventure trip. Three nights in the canyon. Two groups started at either rim and exchanged keys in the middle. The cool thing was there were no other people on the trail that age. Everyone we met thought it was great. Hiking up the North side at sunrise is incredibly beautiful. We have two high adventure trips a year. One is allowed to be expensive (~Philmont cost) and one must be inexpensive ($200 - $300). Scouts can easily raise that much in a year.

Wow. Id' suggest you write a big long email and then throw it out. It helps. But the truth is that if the current SM likes what you're doing then it doesn't matter what the former one says. There will always be someone that doesn't like change. But, never waste a problem or an opportunity! How about asking the PLC what they thought about the former SM's talk? You'll develop trust by being loyal to your scouts. They might also talk about what they're worried about, or need help with. Also, the former SM just challenged your scouts. Let the scouts know that and they'll most likely want to prove him wrong. There's nothing quite like a trouble maker to pull everyone else together. Use it.

I hope your relatives played nice. Mine did.

I'm voting with Tahawk (there is interest in the outdoors and the training needs improving), and SeattlePioneer (the demographics are changing). If families are struggling to make ends meet then maybe meetings should be set up to include siblings. The kids in my troop don't have that issue so much as they have, how can I say this politely, cultural pressure to win, succeed, and sign up for everything. What they really enjoy about campouts is a chance to get away from the daily grind of school, parents, and home. They just want to hang with their friends. Scouts is local and success will happen because parents find a good, local unit. A big camp on the East coast won't help a local unit. The biggest bang for the buck would be to give DEs better pay and better resources to help develop better units. The emphasis now is on making more units. If it were on making better units the more would take care of itself. Unfortunately, I'm not sure many units know what better looks like. There is JTE but that's lacking.

Can I pin it to the forehead of the parent that's paying his son for each rank advancement? Talk about a SM nightmare.

jkmscottie, welcome to the forums. The short answer to your question is yes, it's your responsibility. The longer version, and what everyone else is talking about, is whether even you should deal with those issues. Sure, sometimes you should. If for example, you have a scout bring weed to summer camp then that's your issue (been there done that). But if it's a scout that doen't want to do dishes then it's the PL's issue. He may ask for help from the SPL, and if that doesn't help they might come to you for help to figure out how to deal with it. Again, you aren't dealing with it directly. You'll notice that in no situation the CC should be dealing with these issues. If the CC is trained as an ASM then I'd have no problems with him acting in that manner, but he should be deferring to you in any case.

Apparently there are two paintings called A Scout Is Loyal. One was painted in 1932 and one was in 1942. The one you are looking at was done in 1932. The later one has a scout standing facing forward holding a hat, with Washington and Lincoln standing behind him and an eagle off to the side. I like the first one more than the second.

I understand your agony. If I knew that scout camps were being created elsewhere I'd say oh well, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Our council took a camp and put it in a conservation reserve. That means they got paid a bunch of money and signed a contract that said the land can't be developed by them or anyone they might sell it to. So it's now worthless to anyone that wants to develop it and there's less of a chance for anyone to want to sell it.

I don't think I can get you gps coordinates for treks but I can get you the coordinates for the boundary trail. That's 12 miles around the edge of the camp. There's a map the council puts out that has all the trails through the camp and I took that and google earth and found a bunch of points. I might be able to find you a map. I might even have one in a closet but that would require digging. Another thing to think about is driving over to the canyon to the South to go white water rafting one day on the Poudre river. The council doesn't run it but they can help you find a rafting company. There's a 4x4 road that goes from right by camp to the Poudre Canyon, or you can drive all the way around and save your shocks.

Sorry. My bad.

Somebody once told me they weren't comfortable "with the whole God thing" and I suggested they take the bible and replace the word God with love, or a phrase like "what you know is right in your heart" and see if that helps. Sometimes you have to massage the words a bit to get them to fit but the meaning tracks well. Most of the bible is a story about a bunch of characters with all sorts of flaws and often the lesson is to be less selfish, which not surprisingly fits well with the boy scout message. It's great literature with a lot of lessons. Anyway, the prayers are a bit harder to transform but here's the start of one: Love is our god. Love is one. Blessed be love for ever and ever. You shall love with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.... It's something I should read before dealing with helicopter parents that I just want to throttle.

The Troop Program Features books now have a section with something like a hundred games. There are plenty of good ones. One I think is a riot to watch is blind folded soccer. Scouts are in pairs. One is blind folded and can kick the ball while the other can see the ball but can't kick it. They have to talk to each other, or more like shout at each other.

Yep, it's in my backyard. It's one reason we don't feel Philmont is such a big deal. They don't have as many activities as Philmont but it's much less crowded, as in you rarely see other people. Also a lot cheaper. You get to climb on real rocks as opposed to climbing walls, and rappelling off of Weaver's Thumb (a full pitch) is great stuff. There are different hikes you can choose from. The easiest is 35 miles and you stay on the ranch. The hardest is 50+ miles, pretty much above 11,000 feet the whole week and you go into the local National Forest. I know they have 7 day treks and I think they still have the 10 day treks. They use the same Philmont food (not a plus in my mind). Beautiful country. It's been a few years since I did one as there are plenty of other hikes nearby. They just closed the camp down for the planned activities and now it's all troops doing weekends until Spring. Give them a call if you need info.

"By following the Scout Law, you follow the Law of God also." I'd say that's a good lesson for the entire world. Especially the part in Reverent about respecting the religious beliefs of others. The 12th point is a paradox and that needs to come out in front. My religion or beliefs are absolute and none other can be correct, and at the same time I have to accept that different people have different beliefs that work for them. The only thing preventing people to handle that paradox is religious pride. So if the humanists/druids/wickans/whatever say their beliefs encourage the first 11 points than who am I to judge their beliefs? ​I just read Bruce Feiler's book "Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths" and it describes the history of the story of Abraham. Everyone has modified that story to encourage their point of view and encourage their beliefs. The bottom line is getting past religious pride. There has been progress but it has a ways to go. Wouldn't it be cool if the BSA encouraged that?

Yeah, he's trained. His problem is he doesn't listen to anything he doesn't want to hear. Kind of like my dog. And yes, there have been many many many discussions. I always get worried when I see a scout with hundreds of sticky notes in his scout handbook. But usually they go camping a lot so it's all good. This scout does not. Dad bribes him a considerable amount for each rank he gets, so Eagle is just a bunch of check boxes in the way. If it weren't such a thorn in my side it would be sad, so it's a sad thorn in my side. Nothing a beer can't fix.

I just had a parent tell me he or his wife had to go on every campout to ensure their son had a good time, and for his safety. I said fine, but they were to stay away from his patrol the whole weekend. Last week it was mom's turn and she decided not to go. I have about 60 scouts in my troop and I'd say four parents are high maintenance. Of those two help out a lot, so I can deal with them. The other two dads are ASMs. One might mellow out. That leaves me with one parent I just want to go away. So really, this isn't horrible.

I agree that the PL handbook doesn't need more, for the boys. If anything it needs less. But the OP was about using it for the adults.

Remove the bling. Make them for the boys, not the adults. Shirt cost is $10. There's a summer and winter weight/material. It needs a US flag, the world crest, and something that says BSA. There is no need for troop or council patches. No pockets, epaulets or collar. Patrol, rank, POR, and OA are pins that go on one, removable thing that easily attaches. Keep the necker. Zippy cargo pants are fine, but make them simpler and cheaper. Kids grow and get dirty, adapt.

​I vote because I have a duty to my country. I'm a scoutmaster because I believe in the Scout Oath and Law. Neither my country nor the BSA is perfect. Of course, neither is my family but I love them anyway. It has nothing to do with rose colored glasses or false pride. It has to do with believing in something and working to improve it. After that I can only have a beer and not worry about it.

Barry, I'll bite. I agree that the PL and SPL handbooks contain all the parts (and also that the SM handbook is a real snorer). But it didn't help me move my troop forward. What I mean is, in hindsight, it's all there, but before hand I couldn't see how to get there. It's very vague. I didn't see the end result. Here's one example. The biggest complaint I heard from PLs for a long time was that they ask their patrol to do something and it just doesn't happen. They have to constantly nag and heard cats. Bad teamwork. So, we created duty rosters and flag competitions and team building exercises. And nothing worked. By pure luck a month ago I tried a leadership training thing for the older scouts and who knows why but I just said there will be no patrol leaders. Help out or suffer together. It worked fantastically well. The scouts said things ran so smooth, they had plenty of time, and they had a lot of fun. They told me to do it for the whole troop and I did and the whole troop said the same thing. What happened is that the scouts finally learned what teamwork really means. I can talk about it. I can even show it in how the adults work together. I'm also guilty of assuming the scouts should understand what teamwork means. But the bottom line is the scouts had no idea because they've never done anything like this before. Even the scouts that play sports have no idea what team work means. They are told what to do by their parents, teachers, coaches, and all adults and they've never had to figure out how to work together and encourage each other. They've never had to solve problems together either. ​If you have a troop that already has this culture built in, and I really hope my troop will soon join that crowd, it's easy and maybe the PL handbook is good enough. But if you came from where I started, the PL handbook is not much help. While I agree this forum has it's weird family behavior, it has helped a lot. And some of your ideas I use verbatim in trying to describe to parents what's going on. So thank you.