MattR

Well Stosh, I first read your OP as a bit random, so I could see how someone could get a D&G message. But now that you've clarified it.... Honestly, the scouts in my troop are getting more adventure and leadership than what I got out of scouting. So maybe things aren't all that bad. The dumb stuff from national (squirt guns!) I mostly ignore. Well, squirt guns are completely ignored. When lighting a fire became optional I said no, it wasn't. I'm changing the rules and that's dangerous. There are a wide range of troops and I've seen some that also change the rules and I'd be very much against the way they change it but I have to respect it and just walk away. I'm okay with making a scout dance for lost items and others aren't okay. I respect that. If the membership rules do change in October there's going to be a need for a lot more respect. Lotta happy and a lotta sad gonna be blowing in the wind. The idea that SMs can improve their skills and troops can improve should be pushed. The idea behind JTE is good, it's just that JTE is measuring the wrong things. The idea that roundtable and a troop commissioner can help a SM improve is a great idea but in practice has been a failure as there don't seem to be a lot of adults that know how it's supposed to work. So, on the one hand SMs are encouraged to do their own thing because National is micro managing what we do, and on the other hand SMs are living in a bubble where they are positive they are doing it right. Bottom line is there are no clear pictures of what good is. Solve that and I predict good things will come from it. BTW, there's a vacuum at the top so your revolution will have to be grass roots based.

Our council doesn't care. That said, I'd suggest you make sure you know anyone from outside your unit. We once had an opening and asked around to neighboring units. We ended up with a handful of a kid. To make a long story short we almost locked him in the compartment where the anchor and chain go. Not really, but we did smile thinking about it. The former scout you know, so no problem. The friends I'd say they'd have to do some things with your unit a couple of times "so everyone can get to know each other."

@@SeattlePioneer, I've had two scouts in my troop with Asperger's. I'm no doctor, but if you really do have Asperger's it would be really interesting to compare what I see with what you see. You see , it appears to me that scouts with Asperger's flat out don't see social ques at a young age. I worked with one scout for a long time just playfully teasing him. By the time he was 16 he could dish it right back and it was great. I'd say these scouts were also focused like a laser on anything they were doing. They struggled with changing plans and things that went wrong. The first scout got Eagle early and left because "there was nothing else to do." The second had a rough time with other scouts goofing around, he once attacked another scout with a stick -- he just couldn't see that it was not serious. He found a smaller troop and it all worked out. So, yes, the one had impulse issues. The other didn't.

Stosh has an interesting way of bringing up an interesting subject. JoeBob just wants to shoot them, whoever they is I agree the BSA is struggling and while some of this might be society I'd say National is doing a great job of shooting itself. 80% of adults think "scouting is good for young people" (whatever they think scouting is). This came from a Rasmussen poll a year ago. So, there's nothing wrong with the outdoors. What is wrong is BSA seems to be confused about what scouting is. The first thing read on the BSA website is the aims of scouting: The BSA provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness. If I were a parent that didn't know much about scouts I'd puke reading that. Besides being unappealing, it doesn't mention the outdoors or adventure. If National wants membership maybe it should pander to the parents that want scouting. Make adventure and the outdoors the primary goal. Make problem solving and responsibility second. Make service third. Make Eagle last. Repeat this like a mantra at National. Everything else will take care of itself.

I'm encouraging my PLs to try this. At least one is keeping track and all of them sounded interested. It's really helping get across the idea that they can do their own thing. We also do something like patrol points to encourage adventure. So, no points for advancement but points for everything else. The points are used for competitions, buying into a cabin (sleep inside on certain winter campouts) and we're thinking of using them to upgrade gear. I tried this a few years ago to encourage the patrols to do their own thing and it wasn't enough. They were clueless. There has been a lot of groundwork that has been done since. The way the patrols are going I expect within a year this won't be enough of a challenge, they'll just have to fill out the paperwork. But for now it's the perfect thing to break them away from the troop. I'll pile on the praise for the first patrol that completes it.

I didn't think SOAR would upload advancement reports to Internet Advancement like TroopMaster will. Am I wrong? Otherwise we'd have to manually do that and that would be a duplication. For us troopmaster is a database we can print reports from and upload advancement to council while SOAR is used for communication. So the integration works for us. Again, it's okay but....

I agree with a lot of what Horizon says. One more observation: we, as a society, used to be interested in fighting evil, now we're interested in winning. It used to be about being good, now it's about being successful. By 7th grade you need to start specializing in your sport, and don't even think about skipping a game. This feeds the curse of Eagle and modern problems. One aside, the older scouts in my troop all say they like scouts because they can get away from the usual grind of AP, tests, homework, ... being successful. One thing about pushing success is adventure has been pushed out of the way, and that's the problem I see. Adventure is about trying something new and sometimes failing. That's where memories come from. My son and daughter have a much greater sense of adventure then the scouts in my troop. My wife and I both did our share of adventure as teenagers and it rubbed off. The thread on Patrol Method I started is because I want to increase the sense of adventure in my troop. It's a lot harder than I thought. The problem with adventure is it can get close to the edge, and that's where all hell breaks loose at National and the parents. One person goes over the edge and nobody else is allowed to get even close. We can't climb on rocks more than waist high. Squirt guns. We can't shoot cannons at summer camp anymore because one fool stood in front of the cannon and the wad tore up his insides and he died. It was a terrible accident but why can't we learn from this and move forward rather than back away? But it's not all National's fault. Adventure is a skill and many scouters don't have it. A lot of people don't have it and some have it in spades. The idea of adventure as a skill might help the BSA focus on developing it rather than focusing on Eagle numbers. It doesn't have to be kayak a class 5 rapid to get Eagle, but just stretch scouts to get out of their comfort zone, wherever that is for each scout. I can't believe it wouldn't really help membership. BTW, I had a PL just send me email saying his patrol is going to do something else at the next meeting than what the PLC decided (a first!). One idea involves shooting lasers at each other, so don't tell anyone. It isn't hiking the continental divide but it's a start.

Bad Wolf, yes, Council has asked us to use it. It helps the council because all the advancement, service hours, and JTE numbers are automatically uploaded. TroopMaster already loads the advancement info. fred, well, okay, SOAR isn't exactly archaic but the fact that it's tied to TroopMaster makes it rather clunky compared to what could be done. Their email solution to the yahoo mess makes searching through emails a nuisance. Scouts can't update their contact info because info can't flow back to troopmaster, where that info all comes from. It would be really nice to create email aliases based on who is signed up for an event, but there's the troopmaster event and the soar event. That's the kind of thing I'm whining about. It's not horrible and it is the best we can find, but, well, you get what you pay for. On the other hand, from what I saw about scoutbook, it is very glitzy with cute graphics, but I'm not sure it has the functionality of troopmaster. I kind of cringe when I read about how parents can find out about "schedule advancement and home assignments"

We use TroopMaster and SOAR. They're both a hack using archaic technology. However, the reason we've been asked to use scoutbook is because it will help the council. That doesn't seem to imply it will help us, so we're not interested. Scoutbook doesn't have a website part, costs twice as much as TroopMaster (for us), and doesn't integrate with SOAR. So we have no reason to use it.

Yep, they came from Area 51. They did learn quickly. The training they needed was that failure is not all that bad. They were more worried about losing then getting excited about winning. Now that they've tasted red meat, it's a different story. But they never would have tried it if I hadn't made them. That's a paradox with the idea of boy led.

Different troops do things differently. Since your son sounds like he's not enjoying that troop, try asking him if he'd like to visit some other troops. Let him own the solution. Hint: He should be having fun.

Pick any skill you'd like, @@qwazse, orienteering, pioneering, backpacking, fishing, hiking, caving, the list goes on. They're hesitant to try anything they don't already know and some are hesitant to sweat (even though they play sports, which I can't understand). They got signed off and now they don't have to do that any more. It's not that knowing those skills is the the only thing I'm looking for in a patrol. I would like to see some motivation and camaraderie. Solving problems together is one way to generate camaraderie and competitions are a good way to generate those problems. As for crossing bogs off-trail as a motivator, they wouldn't see that as any reason to set up an orienteering course. It's also not that they wouldn't enjoy it, I think they would. It's just the forward looking portion of their brains are mush.

I tried that for 6 months and finally said enough is enough, there will be a fire building contest. Words work on one side of the brain and competition is on the other side, and in boys the two sides do not talk to each other. It wasn't until they did it that they knew they liked it. My point is we're more than a resource. We have to motivate as well and sometimes motivation includes telling someone something they don't want to hear. To be honest I've also had to eat my words when my motivation back fired.

@@Eagledad, I like your description of how to use the aims and methods. I'm doing a lot of that without recognizing it. It is a fairly vague set of rules to interpret, though. As an example, six months ago I got frustrated with talking to the PLC about how bland their program was and said every campout needs a challenge of some sort. It wasn't a problem of character, citizenship, or fitness, but it was a problem with delivering on what scouts is about. You told me about how every scout needs to keep growing, where does that fit in to this? Something we see a lot is the scouts don't see the possibilities and therefore fall into the same old rut. When I mention a fire building contest they see that maybe they don't really know how to build a fire so they're hesitant and say no. Once we had the competition they wanted another chance to do better. There's more to the interaction between the adults and scouts than "modeling good character." You mention the SM is the keeper of the flame. The challenge is really getting the scouts to see the flame.

Stosh, presumably your instructor is an older boy? So I guess the older boys are teaching the skills. You're the one that said scouts should keep a log of what leadership they did and not worry about a patch, and if teaching skills is one of those items then I guess the older boys are teaching the skills. This would be a big change from what my troop did before I came along, which was have the adults teach the skills.

Ken, you beat me to it. @@Eagledad, while I'm learning to see what you mean by the aims and methods cover a lot, I have to say it's all hindsight. When I started as SM and said I wanted the older scouts to teach the younger scouts I just about had a mutiny from the adults. When I asked some older scouts why they liked working at summer camp so much better than in the troop they said it was because they knew it was important and nothing in the troop was important -- because the adults would cover for them. In hindsight this can all be attributed to personal growth, but a new SM reading the methods of scouting will never see that because personal growth is some vague blurb about getting a religious knot and doing a good turn daily. Adult association does not describe how important it is to not be around at times. So how do we get you to fill in all those details? Just to make it concrete how about three pages per method? To make it easier just give me a pile of ideas for each and I'll do the writing.

My guess is most people think this change is coming whether they like it or not. I figured it would be a few more years, but this sounds like a shot across the bow. Either way I don't see it making much of a difference in numbers as it's all about whether the scouts are having fun. My bigger worry is squirt guns. I'll ignore that rule but it is an indication that National is run by committee and not by one with an idea of what scouting is about. Here I am trying to encourage scouts to go off on their own and we're reminded that we can't even trust boys with squirt guns. Anyone notice that the Denver Area Council was explicitly brought up as disregarding the rules and they also get one of the STEM trials?

Case in point: squirt guns. There's a clear lack of leadership at National and by that I mean there are all sorts of players pulling in different directions (traditional scouting, bean counters, religious, lawyers, ...). It's difficult to write coherently and concisely when everyone agrees. When people don't agree we get committee reports for boys to read.

Following on to qwazse's comment, and also trying to get this back on the rails: Different scouts want different things and they have no idea it's okay to seek that. So another responsibility of the adults is to get the scouts to open up, find out what they're thinking, and give them some feedback at a wider level. It's not thinking outside the box, it's realizing how big the box is. In the case of patrol makeup some scouts think whatever is being done is the only way to do it. When it comes to campouts many scouts don't know what they don't know about what could be done. Unrelated to this but related to the OP, I looked up Hillcourt's Page 9 (mentioned in that video on another thread) and it describes exactly what I meant by the promise of scouting. Outdoors with your friends, wielding an axe, tracking a deer. And that's only the beginning. This was on page 9 of the old scout handbooks and was written directly to the scout. The equivalent in the current book is a disaster written by a committee and has a lot of baggage that no kid will understand or wade through.

The discussion on patrol vs troop and what patrols do is good, but way beyond what I'm interested in. I'm not writing a book. In my wild dreams I'm thinking of some sort of weekend training for adults and scouts to fix their troops. I want a simple set of ideas that people can focus on to get them started in this but with enough detail that they will make progress. I'm looking for one page. Succinct and tight. That said, I have another question about adult responsibility to the Patrol Method. In particular, the SM. The SM has to set the boundaries and create a framework the scouts have full reign within. I had scouts that enjoyed competitions but would never plan one because they were afraid they didn't know their skills or they might fail at the challenge. The short version of this is I said no, this is scouts, so I dictated that every campout needed a challenge of the scout's choice. It worked, now they like it. I heard of another troop where the scouts decided their campout would be sleeping in the local park and hanging out in the mall all day. I would have said no. My job is to motivate scouts to do their best, what are my limits? I want to encourage them but that's a fuzzy idea. Sometimes words are enough. Sometimes a demonstration (D.O. cooking is a great example). But sometimes I need to make them do something just to try it. I'm all ears if there are better ways to encourage the scouts.

Julia, a fun activity is a repeat-after-me song that gets harder and harder. The leader starts with a simple phrase, the scouts repeat it, the leader adds something to make it longer, scouts repeat, and this goes until it's a huge long tongue twister. It's not really a song but it is fun. Here's one example. http://www.ultimatecampresource.com/site/camp-activity/one-fat-hen-a-couple-of-ducks.html

I use these idiotic rules to my advantage. I go to my scouts and say something like "Hey guys, the BSA doesn't trust you to climb on rocks above your waist, but I do. Just remember, if any of you give me reason to not trust you then I will enforce BSA's rules for all of you." Then they go explore the rocks, without adult supervision, and they think I'm cool because I trust them. win/win. My scouts recently spent a meeting shooting nerf darts at each other. They had a ton of fun. Real weapons are about power. Squirt guns are about fun. Too bad National can't see the difference.

I wish we could gather at a brew science establishment and talk about this. I do appreciate everyone's comments. I want as concise a description as possible that gives enough that someone new to this can make it work. I have to keep it on a page or people will wander away. The reason I'm doing this is the descriptions out there are not working. If they were then most troops would be doing this. This is going somewhere and it's not a power point, but more on that later. The major feedback I'm getting is: If the scouts read this they won't realize that what they should be doing is having an adventure in the outdoors. Given this is the major benefit of the Patrol Method, I'll work on it. Also, adult association can make or break this. There is a fine line between leaving a patrol alone and stomping on their freedom. What does support a patrol really mean? They need to encourage the adventure with a gentle touch. However, that's too vague. @@Eagledad or anyone else, any chance you can boil your experience down regarding adult association to something concise and still informative enough that a new leader can grasp the basics? @Stosh: My troops does have some troop wide activities. Opening and closing flags and games come to mind. We have troop wide service projects. Swim tests are troop wide. Getting the trailer packed. That's all I meant by the SPL leads troop wide activities.

@@qwazse, I'm game. I think you've mentioned the noun/verb distinction before. Unfortunately I didn't quite see what you were getting at. I'd say what we are is what we do, so there's not much difference. But that's not what you're trying to get at. So please explain further. Here's a guess. If I were to define the verb to scout I'd say there are two parts, adventure in the outdoors and service to our community. Are you saying "to scouter" is to encourage scouting? That I could fit in easily.

As the boys will see this MB: Req 1) Describe blah blah Req 2) Discuss blah blah Req 3) Do Something! Req 4) Discuss blah blah Req 5) Discuss blah blah ZZZZZZZzzzzzz.