MattR

I hope I don't become the "kumbaya guy" but it was too hot outside for a bike ride and I'd rather do this than deal with the 3 parents pissed off at me because their children (one of whom decided to poop in the woods at summer camp) are too perfect for my crude methods. An entire patrol went off the rails and I required all the parents and the scouts to join me in a discussion about the Scout Law. This seemed like an opportunity for the boys to learn more about the ideals of scouting. A number of parents didn't like that approach. So here we are, trying to live up to the same ideals. Maybe we also have an opportunity. One way to describe character is what you do when nobody is looking. Maybe another is how you treat people you disagree with. We have lots of opportunity for that one! Friendly, courteous, and kind are a lot easier when I make the effort to find the good in others. Now, before anyone says "yes, but what they are doing is really wrong," it's time to focus on the whole person. We're all trying to do right by our sons so there's good in all of us. So, in defense of Barry: Pack, I have to agree that you have made comments that have surprised me regarding the membership issue. It's obvious it's very important to you. Also, to everyone, we do hammer on a lot of scouts and phrases like paper eagles are not fair to the scout as they're following the adults' rules. In defense of Pack: I've seen the fire-and-brimstone-you're-all-going-to-hell-if-you-don't-accept-Jesus sermons at camporees. I bite my tongue and walk away until I calm down and go back to talk to someone, which is a waste of time. A lot of Christians don't even like it. That's not to say that you can't find the equivalent from rabbis. We do, after all, have a lot more years experience at this. In defense of the moderators: There's a lot of emotion pouring out on these pages and I doubt if many people expected things to change so quickly. The emotion is fanning the flames. It might be best if people would write their response, walk away for a while, and then edit out the emotion. Based on the membership subject and what National has done, it makes sense that most of the anger is coming from one side of this argument and so it might look like the moderators are one sided. The moderation doesn't seem too far off to me. And lets face it, this forum is better moderated than any other we know so it can't possibly be easy. In defense of those bringing up potential problems with allowing gay scouts and adults: Gays are different and I have no doubt there will be problems. Something is different. It might be genetic, environment, or both. I also know kids with Asperger's have problems as well, as did I with reading as a kid. There was a thread about confident kids that ended up with addictions. So the potential for problems in our troops is there. None of us know how bad the problems will be. So I don't see a problem talking about it. I also suspect National will ignore all of this because, well, they're National and they ignore most everything. In defense of Christians: On average the religiously active (nearly all are Christian) in my troop are easier to work with and I appreciate their sense of helping out. They tend to be more humble than others and differences are solved quickly. Maybe I'm lucky but in my town the religiously active do a lot of helping of the homeless and needy and no shouting. I'm not saying it's for everyone or that everyone that's religious is wonderful, but it works great for a lot of people. I welcome them in my troop. My guess is we're all pretty much in agreement but I can appreciate that other troops will have big problems with a change. Finally, in defense of the BSA: I was at a scout's Eagle project today and my neighbor, who goes to the same church where the project was, came up to me and said he'd like to get his son into scouting. He was really impressed with how the boys acted and thought scouts would be good for his son. I didn't have the heart to tell him one of those boys was the PL for the patrol that ran off the rails at summer camp.

I've never seen a problem with legit counselors. Having fun at camp is what this is all about. One problem is there are fewer activities to do outside of merit badges, especially for older scouts. The result of this is fewer scouts are going to summer camp so they don't seem to be having the fun they used to. I'm hoping that if the scouts had to do all the reqs they'd have more fun. Maybe that's a bad assumption. I had a scout work at camp and he asked me to sign off on the merit badges he taught (camping, pioneering, and something else). I said great, it will be really easy for you to complete the MB with a regular counselor. He never did complete the merit badges. People say I shouldn't change the rules on merit badges but that assumes the Council is holding up their end of the deal.

Actually, in this case what I propose (or meant to propose) would work well. Go to the classes and learn what you can, but don't waste time discussing and sleeping. If the counselor is a good one like you had, do the fun stuff and get the most out of it. All that's really needed for fishing is catch 2 fish, release one, eat the other. The rest is discuss and explain. Having that signed off at home by a real counselor would be quick and easy and the scout would have had a great experience trying the different areas and casts. I don't know that I've ever seen a camp in my area where all the MBs were run by legit counselors. I don't even mind 17 year olds that are not official counselors but just enjoy the subject. I mention fishing MB because at the camp we just got back from there were 12 scouts in the class, the counselor had a bunch of boards with fishing knots on them he passed out, and 2 cords he passed around for each scout to try and tie the knot. So the boys spent most of their time waiting for a chance to tie a knot. They all got signed off (even though this is not even close to the req) and the scouts in my troop only completed one knot because I was there and helped them out. This is the majority of MBs that I see. The scouts know they'll be sleeping through the classes and even expect it, so when they get back to camp they just burn energy like crazy. Climbing, shooting, and aquatics are always good and that's what the scouts like. The worst ones are the outdoor skills like camping, cooking, and pioneering. The scouts don't cook. In pioneering they rarely do the splices. People mention confronting the camp director and bringing up the problems but that is just poring grief on the camp director. A good friend of mine was a camp director and that's all about juggling bailing wire and duct tape. The Councils are broke and there's no extra money for good staff or enough resources for merit badges. They're worried about the septic system and dining hall. That's why I'm trying to find a "chaotic good" solution to something well beyond what I can affect. Possibly I can work with the scouts and get them prepared for their MBs. Just knowing the requirements and which ones are fun, safety, or just blathering (and can be skipped till later at their discretion) might help them make their own decisions about what they spend their time on.

I agree with this and I also agree with the idea that the BOR doesn't need any testing. But there needs to be testing somewhere, assuming the scouts truly own the calendar or else those activities will not be put on the calendar. If nobody in the PLC knows how to start a fire then who's going to suggest making an event that requires starting a fire? Teenagers don't like to admit they don't know something. I've tried cajoling scouts into these activities and it just doesn't happen. I finally told the scouts they need a challenge at every campout, there will be testing at every rank (but not BOR), so why not make events that teach the skills so the testing is a breeze? It works for my troop. And slowly the whole test thing is becoming less of an issue as the older scouts know the skills and they are the ones pushing the younger scouts to learn them.

Terry, I agree with 99% of what you said and what you and the moderators do for this forum and scouting. Without the help I've found on this forum I would have given up on scouting a long time ago - and I'm not done needing help. I also agree that acting scout like is paramount. That said, I'd like to hold your feet to the flame to a much higher standard than anyone else here is held to. Most likely I just want to make a point and picking on you is the best chance I have to do that. Please let me explain. Your post comment "(or start one of your own!)" reflects what was said a lot to those people that wanted a change in the membership policy. That comment was always said with a bit of my way or the highway, take it or leave it, I could care less about what you want attitude. I've never thought it to be scout like. Yes, you said up front that you respect the religious differences of everyone here, and yes, your point that you won't tolerate the denigration of gay scouts is also admirable. However, that phrase doesn't help and right now we need to figure out how to help each other. We need to help each other against the extremes that will never be happy with what the BSA is doing. We also need to keep helping each other learn about scouting. We have a wide range of expertise here and the last thing I'd like to see is a big chunk of that leaving over this issue. Some will. But hopefully many will stay. I would very much like to invite them to my campfire. This forum reminds me of my extended family and how sometimes it's more important to tolerate your father-in-law than confront him. It made me better in the long run, even if it took nearly 30 years! Thanks again for what all y'all on this forum do (All y'all is Southern for "every single one of the many" )

So how do we, at the troop level, deemphasize poorly done MBs and emphasize just having fun doing cool stuff at camp? I can't audit 30 merit badges to see how they're done. I'd rather just say no MBs will be signed off from camp but learn what you can, we will accept anything you made (including score sheets and photos) but the rest will have to be done at home with a counselor on your own time. Rather than sit through a boring fishing MB class the scouts can just go to the lake, fish, take a picture, and go do something else fun. I would much rather see summer camp have a lot more "just check it out" and if they want to complete the mb then they can do the paperwork at home but get their hands dirty cleaning guns and making bow strings at camp under the guidance of someone that knows this stuff.

There are a few threads about merit badges and how poorly they are being done. Everyone is impatient and the results are just a waste of time, which everyone is trying to minimize, so more impatience. However, I like the idea of merit badges when they're done right. I can't fix National but here's an idea I can control. At summer camp scouts can only take merit badges that are staffed by people that could be a counselor outside of camp. Or, we will only accept blue cards from someone that's a counselor, so the scouts will have to redo other merit badges when they get back home. Likely that means anything with certification is okay -- climbing, shooting, and water front, and possibly crafts like leather work and basketry. The advantage is scouts have more fun taking MBs and there would be more time outside of merit badges to have fun. The disadvantage is scouts won't get as many merit badges done and, the real problem, will have to make time for them during the year. How would this fly in your troop? Would it create problems the scouts can deal with or would it just be kids saying I don't have time, good bye (which would be fine by me).

But the older boy is still in Boy Scouts? Doesn't sound that bad. I took off two years from cub scouts with my son because the kids in his den were making it miserable for everyone else. I never did cub scouts as a kid, so I didn't mind. If the older boy is having fun then the younger will likely want to join a troop when he's old enough.

I've never seen it happen before, so yes, I'd be weary if a random adult with no scouting experience and no child in the troop showed up asking to help. It's not that I'd say no but I would be weary. I'm also a bit weary of adults from other troops that walk right in to my troop site and start working with scouts. There are plenty of scouters I don't want around my scouts and this has nothing to do with sexuality or YP. I have adults in my own troop that I do not want as ASMs because they just don't get it. They are more than welcome on campouts but I do keep an invisible leash on them. There are adults with outdoor skills but no scouting experience that have helped out but there is always at least an ASM or myself around to see how they work with the boys. Trust takes time to develop and the parents trust me to make sure the adults working with their sons are trustworthy. So weary has its place.

I was at summer camp with my troop two weeks ago and the staff was commenting on how cool it was that my patrols had their own cook sites. I looked around and my troop was the only one where the patrols cooked on their own. The Council exec came to talk at a SM dinner thing and he asked what the adults needed more of. I said I wanted more patrol activities. Cooking and cleaning were the only patrol activity and it's hard, I wanted some fun things for the scouts to enjoy together and MB time was preventing that. Give us the canoes outside of class, organized geo cache, at least give us some maps of local trails so my patrols could do that. I got a blank stare. I went up afterwards and talked to him individually and he just couldn't understand what I was trying to get at. This was the council exec! I don't think anyone would even start something like scouts today. Today, everything is about competition. Sports rule. Band used to be about appreciating the arts. Now that's being pushed out in favor of band competitions. I like competition but when it becomes all encompassing it kills the magic of a campfire, or helping someone fix a tire. Just to appreciate life's best moments.

Maybe it's just me but most of the requirements for Eagle have little to do with character development. The BSA seems to believe that they can quantify what Eagle means in terms of a set of check boxes. But character is really something that is difficult to quantify and scoutmasters are not trusted to make those decisions. I think that's the real problem. The changes in requirements are just busy work. The real issue is developing scoutmasters the BSA can trust and letting them do their job. Where have I heard this before? Train them, trust them, and let them be? I'm in full violation by telling my older scouts I'll never sign their Eagle app if the younger scouts don't look up to them. Yet that and a discussion of how they can get to that point and they're much better scouts.

What I would do: make sure the boy is still enjoying scouts (high adventure trips) If not, forget it, it's over. If so, he is going through what we call slacker phase. If he wants it he will complete it. Nearly all do. What I would not do: bribe him (car for Eagle) or threaten him (no license until Eagle) or incessantly nag him about how wonderful Eagle is. I've had a number of scouts in slacker phase turn it around just about when the parents gave up and left them alone.

I ask scouts why they like our troop. Some responses: We do a lot. Events have fun or challenge but there is time to just hang out. We have scouts that are Den Chiefs and the webelos really liked them. We run the haunted house for the Council every year and some Webs join us just for that. We have a lot of high adventure trips. This boy led thing is new but they like it and they like their patrols. Scouts feel welcome when they visit. Every campout other than klondike, high adventure, and summer camp is open to cub scouts and their parents (we ignore rules about requirements for cub scouts at those campouts). They think it's cool when I defend their choices in front of the other adults. The outdoors are such a great break from the usual grind and drama of high school. They learn skills and do things they would never do outside of scouts. I hear these last two a lot from older scouts. There's a lot of tough love going on in my troop. I treat the older scouts the same way I want them to treat the younger scouts. I tell the older scouts they will not get Eagle if the younger scouts don't look up to them. They look at me funny when I tell them the best way to get the younger scouts to notice them is to have fun with them and/or have their own adventure so the younger scouts can see it. After that, teaching skills is easy. Those scouts, that are looking out for the younger scouts, are the best recruitment tool. Maybe the bottom line here is recruitment is no different than retaining scouts by giving them age appropriate challenges.

My guess is it's more a case of adult's wishful thinking. These two have a hammer and they're looking for nails. These people think that because scouts like to text each other they will like to look stuff up online. So they will add lots of requirements to look stuff up and discuss what they've found. But scouts would rather shoot, paddle, ride, and do stuff with their hands. The scouts will ignore whatever these people come up with.

I'm curious if the "don't wear deet" idea is based on science or just a hunch. I've used that stuff for years and never had a problem with bears. All of a sudden we get a camp guy saying don't put any on after 5pm. If a bear can smell a candy wrapper from a mile away -- I've seen those claims -- he can probably figure out what you ate from what your sweat smells like and can also smell the deet you put on that morning. And no deodorant in the world will cover it up. Dogs learn the scent of other dogs so they can identify each other. Smell is more important than sight. A bear has a much better sense of smell. My guess is they see smells the way we see a buffet table. "hmm, leftover gorp, apple core juice, come on, Big Piece of Salami! Score!

Waterplant, first of all welcome. Good for you for trying to improve your troop. You mention three problems, swearing, too many adults, and one scout that doesn't obey anyone but mom and dad. I see a bigger question. Who solves the problems in your troop, the scouts or the adults? Who deals with a scout that doesn't listen to anyone? Adults or scouts? One thing you should be doing in scouts is learning how to deal with problems like these and do it in a scout like manner. There should be a time to bring these problems up in the PLC and talk about them. Do you have that time? Does your PLC solve problems or do they just make a few plans and leave the problems up to the adults? Your asking about these problems on this forum implies you want to solve them, which is great, but also implies your plc has no experience or help in solving them, which might be the crux of the problem. As for your specific problems, ask the PLC about the swearing. If some scouts agree with you then you have a place to start. A talk about Clean and a swear jar sounds good to me. For the scout that doesn't listen, my experience is that there are always a few scouts that have figured out that they can ignore all the other scouts because the scout leaders do not have the authority or are uncomfortable using it to deal with problem scouts. If the only thing you can do is plead with a scout to behave, and he's not interested in helping but is more interested in playing mind games, then he'll never behave. He's winning his game by ignoring you. The PLC needs some authority to deal with this scout and some training on the right way to do it. As for adults in camp, is the problem that there are adults in camp or that the adults are getting in the way of the scouts doing their thing? I would not have a problem with adults camping. I'd have a big problem with adults minding their own business. Making rules about how many adults can go camping will not solve the underlying issue of adults not allowing the scouts to run their own patrol. You're going to have to learn how to confront the adults on this one and I'd suggest getting help from the SM. He should be helping you pull back the adults. Let us know how it's going and best of luck.

I agree with everything people have said here - what a mess, good for you for wanting to improve things, good for your mom for backing you up, but you're up against a real problem and reason and listening to scouts doesn't look like it's in the cards. JoeBob makes a very good point. Maybe nobody will listen to one scout leaving on his own, but if a group all show the adults their transfer apps at the same time it might have a bigger impact and maybe some adults that should say something will start stepping up. I'd add one thing to what JoeBob says. Rather than 5 or 6 friends, how about asking your patrol to visit the other troops with you? Or, at least pick a group that you'd like to be in a patrol with. If a troop will take you as a patrol then you know for a fact that they respect the boys. You'll have instant friends in a new troop and that would help a lot. Anyway, this would be a good example of servant leadership. A minor point about sending email to the Council. Email is often ignored, it's better to call and talk to someone.

I've given my spl authority to send scouts home. It's never been used but the scouts know he has it. The spl is less likely to send a scout home than I am so it works. One problem it solves is the scouts that are perfect when adults are around but quite selfish when adults are not around. We ask that the pl try to solve the problem but if that doesn't work the spl is brought in. If it still doesn't work and it comes to me then I just have to find a ride home. A couple of times it has come to me and I start looking for keys when all of a sudden everyone starts cooperating. The goal of all this to push the whole problem and solution, including respect of authority, down to the scouts. The scout leaders struggle with being the bad guy and some scouts know that.

One side effect of letting scouts form their own patrols is all of those that cause trouble are in the same patrol in my troop. I told them they have the most energy and will either be the best patrol or will fight with each other and be miserable. The difference being whether they follow the Oath and Law. I told them it's their choice but if they keep acting like cub scouts I will treat them like cub scouts. I went into the details of what that meant and got their attention. I also asked them to explain the humor of some off color jokes in detail. Talk about embarrassing a kid ("so the mayonnaise represents semen? How is that funny? Really, please explain." Long uncomfortable silence with me staring right at them). The words "I'm dissapointed in your actions because they don't reflect who I think you are" had a surprising impact. But it will still take many iterations of this. Kids don't change that quickly.

It's ironic that Gates said the BSA needs to act quickly in order to control the discussion and yet they are quickly losing control within their own ranks.

Let's make training for outdoor adventure the way merit badges should be for scouts. Adults like power point slides as much as the boys. Adults need more than a day's worth of training, just like the boys. One on one training while actually doing it is fun and exactly what the boys like to do. Set that up for the adults and training wouldn't be the big dread. Share some of that youthful awe of learning something new with the adults and they might want to volunteer more often. Next, connect people with experience from outside of scouting with those that want it. Instead of having official BSA training (other than for safety) use the local community to find experts. I've found spelunking expertise and climbing expertise outside of scouting. And connect them long enough such that those learning will at least keep doing it and be able to take their troop out. That means people would have to commit to it. The harder the adventure the more commitment. If nobody wants to commit then there's no high adventure trip. Backpacking requires 3 weekends and one evening. Climbing is a lot more. River rafting is similar. People can decide what they want to do.

It's the additional training I'd like to see because the basic training doesn't cover this. Certainly not IOLS. Not sure about trek safely. Part of this is basic adventure training: know your limits. That requires experience. No classes can teach that. But again, these guys got out alive with no serious injury. Only one group split up so that's good. And people knew to eat their pride and know when they were beat.

I'm not sure that any of that training would help in any of those situations. Did they ever need wilderness first aid? They all knew enough to keep out of serious trouble - nobody got seriously hurt. Second, of all the boy scout trips that are going on right now (thousands?) this is the worst of it. Bad things do happen and these guys did okay. What were the problems? Some got lost because they couldn't see the trail and they should have backed out. Someone got lost because they intentionally left the trail and didn't have a map (okay, that's stupid). Someone got surprised by a higher than normal river. Bad luck. The guys on the ice had no idea what they were getting into. IOLS won't cover any of this. The idea of back country treking training is a good idea.

I agree with Calico that it's all local. If the scouts are having fun and are getting something out of it then they'll make time to keep going. I also agree with Eagledad that the new adults are clueless. The model of training them has to improve. I'm the perfect example. I was in a lousy troop as a kid during my older years and did not see any of the GBB stuff. Even though I was an SPL I was beyond clueless. As an adult I saw a certain magic in scouts and knew it was a good thing. Great, so where do I go for help? I repeated what I saw in my troop but I knew that wasn't working. I asked my commissioner, I went to Woodbadge, and I still got nowhere. I joined here and got some really curt responses the first time around, mainly because I didn't know the right questions to ask. I reread all the manuals and even picked up some books. I just kept plugging away at it because I'm stubborn. That model will not work. I realize that a lot of people here have seen it working for a long time and it's all second nature but it's not at all obvious if you haven't seen it. If National could better support/prepare those people then all the other problems would solve themselves.

I'm a scoutmaster, I'm always playing with fire. BadWolf, very true, especially if there's a woman involved.