MattR

I would not like coed patrols but I could go for all boy or all girl patrols. Patrol method would be easier to describe and see if there were girls. "They'd rather go canoeing than backpacking. Fine, what do you want to do? Blow things up. How about shotgun? Ooooooh yeah." Parents would be happier if they could bring all their kids to the same place. I've heard similar to what Skip said, that there just aren't as many girls interested. While there is an ugly social vibe that goes on in coed schools, maybe scouts could show the shy nerdy boy how to talk to the shy nerdy girl. Biggest fear: moms. Let your kids fail. If you don't want to see them eat burnt food or dirt, don't go camping with us. Bad parents are bad parents. It's just that more of them are moms. I have a mom in my troop that is great. She organizes HA trips. She knows when her mom radar starts beeping. The thing is she was very active in the outdoors, in girl scouts. She ate burnt food and dirt as a kid. I think Barry's concern is that the BSA program is designed to appeal to most boys and that if we make it so most girls are equally welcome then it will dilute things. Some girls like the current program, and I welcome them, but lets not make it so all girls want to join. Remember our roots -- learning to have fun in the outdoors even if the words "suck it up" (at an age appropriate level) are needed to get us over the tough parts.

Venturing, venturing, venturing. Done with the first lesson. The troop model of parents being the adult leaders just doesn't seem to work with the local venturing crews I know of. They don't have the energy to help with their kids, or their kids don't want them around. Especially with the 18-21 age. I think it needs the 25 to 30 year olds. Isn't that how the British run their units? Some old codger oversight and some young blood might work. The other issue is the maturity and confidence level of the venturing crew. While I'd like to believe Barry, my older scout program is still a work in progress. Some of the scouts are doers, many are followers. If the venturing crew scouts are good, this could help me. If they're mostly in the "I dunno, what do you want to do" phase, then I don't have the time for it. I'm mildly optimistic because the one scout came up to me and asked for help. I'm not sure if there are more. Something that would be easy to do would be have a planning campout for the old venturing crew and come up with a calendar with names assigned for running it. See if they can generate their own ideas and see if they work well together. If not, well, that tells me something. If they do a good job then take their plan to the old crew advisers and tell them this is what their scouts really want to do. I'd learn about the scouts and the adults. It's possible this problem could solve itself and I'd be done.

That's what the sister of one of my scouts said to me tonight. And my response was "ummm, oookaaay, talk to me." Short version is she and another 7 or 8 kids, mostly girls, are in another crew and they're tired of the adults telling them what the calendar has to be. They have events and there are more adults then scouts going. They want to leave that crew and start another. Word got out that I like this whole patrol method thing and they want to do that. To make things a bit more exciting I know some of the adults in that crew. They once tried recruiting my daughter as the crew president but after they told my daughter she couldn't organize what she wanted to do, my daughter turned to me and said nope. It's possible the conflict with the other crew has another side. So, what is the best way to help these kids? I know they need female adults that will go on campouts with them. I'm fairly sure they are in it for the adventure and don't care about advancement. I said I'd sit down and talk with her this weekend. Should I tell her to bring her friends? My understanding of a venture crew is it's boy scouts without the weight of Eagle and hopefully more mature. They pick what their adventures are. I think they like the outdoors but they likely are not into klondike. What does a crew need? What kind of adults? Gear? CO? Roundtables? Paperwork? Recruitment? I've heard plenty of people say keep it away from the troop. But maybe they share high adventure? Are there patrols in a crew? Okay, I guess I'm clueless. The intriguing thing for me is that I suspect girls can get organized more easily than boys. It would also be wonderful to not deal with advancement. At the same time, I don't want to start something that is going to die as soon as I leave. In fact I'd be okay with getting their program started and doing some fun stuff with them but I don't want to be the unit leader. Apparently there is a young couple old enough to be adults that left the old crew because of the same issues the scouts are having.

How about National President of the BSA?

Eammon, I like your idea of having people that can help a unit, but there needs to be a common objective, and that's missing. For example, how many SMs would say there unit is boy led? All of them, so apparently there's no problem to solve. Better communication would start with a concise description of what the program really is and how it works. We all need to be on the same page as to what the program is. The methods of scouting should handle this but is too brief and vague. Just for fun, go read it and compare it to the worst troop you know of. They have patrols, they repeat the scout oath and law, they go camping, they have scouts advancing, there are adults, the scouts are getting better, there are patrol leaders, and they do wear their uniform. Must be a good troop. Obviously it's boy led. There's also JTE. The idea is good that someone can score their own unit and see where it should be but they've taken SMART goals to such an extreme they seem to have forgotten the important parts. Honestly, where does the patrol method show up in JTE? I'd like to see the methods of scouting expanded to the point where people can score their own units. Yep, we do that, but we sure don't do this other thing. Put in something to score the PLs and adults. If there are a few different ways to do things then include descriptions of each. We go on and on about how to split patrols so describe both. We all agree that patrols should separate so that's fine. Different levels of scout maturity require different levels of adult involvement so describe all that. Teaching PLs how to get over the hump of looking out for their patrol members is probably common, so put it in.

@Eammon, I'm not going to use past tense, my troop is finally getting close to where it should be and the results are good. But there are certainly challenges. In the "good ol' days" the Boy Scouts had a monopoly on time and everyone's attention. Nobody had to sell this program so nobody did. That's not the case anymore. I have plenty of stories of boys that have grown immensely but some parents don't see it. I just did a SM minute on how I don't want to waste a problem by solving it for a scout. The parents think that's fine until they realize that it can get messy for the newer scouts when other scouts are learning to lead. I've been hearing a lot of "boy led is fine, but [when my son is impacted by some older scout that's learning, it's not fine at all]." It's not easy. Maybe in the old days people would just tell their kids to suck it up. But, and this is important, there are still plenty of parents that like what they see and plenty of scouts that like a challenge. One more important point. The real challenge is with cub scouts. The boy scout model is you get adults that like it and stick around. They learn and pass that knowledge on. The cub scout model is more like girl scouts - you stay as a den leader with your son until he moves on to boy scouts. It's the cub scout packs that are hurting.

If you really want to find out what a troop is about ask if you can go camping with them. Afterwards you can talk to your son about whether the adults were doing things or the boys were doing things. You'll learn a lot more there than at a meeting. Likely questions a 10 year old is really going to ask: Are the scouts including me? Am I having fun? Do I get along with the scouts and adults? For the parents, the same questions are important. Are the adults including me? Do I get along with them? Have they invited me to go camping with them? As much as everyone wants to know if it's boy led or not, it's not really a yes/no answer. It's usually how much. If you want a crude answer than just watch, there's no point in asking. I'd suggest asking ahead of time about a visit. We don't always meet at the same place or time. When parents ask me when is a good time to visit I tell them what the boys have planned for the next few weeks and let them decide.

Just an update. I talked to this boy Friday night and asked him if I could make right what went wrong. I said I'd listen to what he had to say. He said he'd think about it. Then we somehow ended up talking about religion for an hour. Well, he mostly talked and I mostly listened. And then another boy joined us and we talked some more. The boy had a good weekend. Time will tell.

I noticed in that article that nobody from a local tribe said anything. I'd listen to what they have to say a lot more than students. I suspect MikeS is right. It could be a great way to teach people about another culture. I looked up the Indigenous Graduate Student Collective and found this quote: One of the founding members, Nikki Silva hopes to conduct research with American Indian communities however in her words she doesn’t “have a lot of background in American Indian issues and is interested in learning more about the specific and unique issues facing Native peoples. I hope my research in anthropology and archeology can give back to Native communities today.â€

I'm looking for some suggestions. I just had a long phone call with a mom that went through a lot of emotions, crying, pleading, laughing. Her son, in my troop, is struggling in so many ways I never knew about. School, family, everything. All I can say is it's serious. He is getting professional help. This kid really needs scouts because he doesn't have any other friends. He's also 16, so his parents are fairly stupid. Any slight is blown out of proportion. He used to be the kid with all the confidence but now he has none. He also used to be very active in scouts and he wants to like it, but he keeps seeing the negatives. This is way beyond my expertise so all I want to do is be someone he can trust. But he's so fragile I'm afraid if I say I know about any of his problems he'll shut me off. I've tried over the past couple of years to get him reengaged with the troop but it's gone nowhere. Ideas? Experience?

As others have said, a single program for everyone won't work. The common theme of all troops should be the methods of scouting. Unfortunately those aren't described very well. It doesn't need to be 300' but patrols do need to get away from each other. @@Eagledad talks about growth, and that's really important to keep older scouts around. How each troop does these things can be different.

I just quoted the less inflammatory parts. Another way of saying this is the Eagle brand has become so strong that there's pressure to cut corners. Everyone wants it and they don't see the rest. They just see a bunch of check boxes. I agree with Fred (I think) that this isn't the scouts' fault so we shouldn't give them grief, but we should prevent adults from cutting corners. I really agree with Stosh's point that the scouts are getting ripped off by adults cutting those corners. Unfortunately this is also hurting the whole program because there are plenty of kids that know junk when they see it and will just walk away. The challenge for the BSA is to explain that Eagle is more than just check boxes and patches. I talk to my scouts and nobody brags to their non-scout friends about what merit badges they completed, the brag about high adventure trips, challenging campouts, and even service projects. I just had a PL send me a letter he got from someone his patrol did a service project for. That's the brand the kids look up to. I talk to scouts about who they used to look up to when they were little scouts and tell them now it's their turn. They understand that. That's what the BSA should be working on.

@@Scouter Matt, just my view but: 1) Get over the idea that anyone will change anyone's mind on anything related to gays. I have yet to see anyone say "you know, you're right, I think I've had this all wrong." Accept that a bunch of people will leave, wish them luck. For those that struggle with this and stay, listen to what their units want and help them out. 2) Get back to the outdoors. That's what we do best and that's the best way to teach kids to make good decisions. Figure it out with your buddies while having fun. 3) Look at British Scouting as they are growing. Yes, they allow girls but it's only 20% that are interested. Skip and Ian may be scratching their heads while watching this site but they belong to a group that is growing. 4) Start looking for a silver lining. National will have to cut the bloat if half the scouts leave. If Trail Life grows then maybe the competition will force the BSA to improve. I know this is a long shot but maybe summer camps will be forced to get out of the MB mill model and into the summer camp model. 5) Maybe this will help both the churches and scout units. The churches might have to drop out or go all in. My troop is obviously mixed religiously and so there is little I can do that will help the religious upbringing of my scouts. The fact that my CO is a church has nothing to do with my program. For those units that want their program closely aligned to their religion they should go all in and limit their scouts to their religion. Everyone would be happier and more respectful of each other. The only problem I see is the LDS as, for some reason I don't understand, TL won't take them. So, they're likely gone but then they can make a program they like. If they take all the money they give to the BSA they could make what they really want for their boys.

I love it. Thanks for posting. At least everyone will agree on this one. Are you sure you're not trolling for some good vibes on this website?

@@CricketEagle, you're close. We don't need a path so much as we need a patch. Everything in scouts has a patch for it. In our neck of the weeds it's not a left/right split on volunteering it's an indoor/outdoor split. All of my ASMs love the outdoors. Most keep their faith to themselves. If the religious groups all started their own program it would not hurt my troop at all because everyone likes scouting. The really religious kids in my troop already go to their church youth group activities. If they were so great then the kids would not be in scouts. They are not in scouts to learn religion. To answer your question, we need to get back to having fun in the outdoors. If the pie splits up among all the religious organizations then the resulting programs will all suck. It's nothing against the LDS but a lot of their troops are not very good for a reason. Mainly it's because the focus is foremost on religion whereas the BSA focus is foremost on the outdoors. Okay, I guess I just repeated what qwazse just said.

It's simple, they're pissed off. Honestly, we are always making decisions because there are no perfect organizations. I have to make a decision as well. I seriously doubt if my CO will allow gay adults and my religious beliefs are to let them join. At the same time my CO is the only facility in town large enough to hold my troop. So, do I start tearing things apart, moving, and just making a big time stink? Or do I just keep working with the boys, like I've been doing for a very long time and ignoring the parts I don't like? This gets even more crazy because it seems to me that it's going to be a very long time before a gay adult would want to be a leader in my troop (they're going to likely come up through cub scouts first, just like all the other scouters in my troop). If a gay adult comes up to me next week and says great, now I want to join and help, I'm going to very politely say no way and not just because my CO will likely say no and not because he's gay. I've had enough issues with clueless adults that I'd never let someone just join on a whim. I like the Japanese approach of taking a long time to develop a relationship before signing any deal. When it becomes a problem for my troop I'll make a decision. Until then it's just not worth my effort. I can see how people will be unhappy with my decision. A lot of people are unhappy with decisions I make. They can always help out and then I'd be more likely to listen to them. After a wonderful weekend backpacking I once again realized it always has been and always will be about the boys. The BSA will not fold. It will likely get smaller in the short term and nobody knows how much, but I'll still have a chance to work with the boys.

My mantra throughout all the bad stuff has always been I'll do my best and ignore the rest. Whether it's myself doing a poor job or something else I have no control over, it doesn't matter. I'm having some fun and helping at least a little bit. Now, I'm going backpacking with my troop. Have a nice weekend.

I'm sure nobody has an answer to this one, but let's look for the murky grey areas that enable lawyers. How solid is the CO/unit relation? Is a scout unit really part of the CO? Or is it really part of the BSA? I know that the contract says it's part of the CO but the BSA picks the program and defines it. There's a long history of the COs picking the people so it should be fine, but what about the case of my troop. I'm Jewish and the CO is Christian. Not only that but the church will likely leave things as they were but if it were my temple they'd change it. Can someone sue my CO and say they have a SM that shouldn't care so he/they/whatever can't claim religious protection? This could be my exit strategy

I have a parent that's an Eagle scout and was tough to work with for the first two years. He knew how he wanted it (like his old troop) and wanted the scouts to do it just that way, and got frustrated, mostly with me. We spent a lot of time talking and now he gets it. The other night I said something and he said "No, that's not what you would do, you would let the boys figure it out." We both laughed. There are always a few parents that push their kids. This usually stops working about the time the boy hits puberty. I had a dad who is written up in the Legacy of Honor book. He pushed both his kids hard. They rebelled. A few people questioned me if it was wise to tell the council president's son he wasn't going to get Eagle if he didn't change his attitude. Dad finally gave up. The boys then decided they wanted it. Both got Eagle. Great young men. I've also seen very disappointed dads watch as their sons dropped out of scouts.

-20. About 2 feet in a weekend. These were two different campouts -- when it gets that cold there isn't much moisture for snow and the snow creaks. No heaters are allowed in tents. That's a BSA rule. Tips in random order: Layers. No cotton. Head, wrists, ankles and necks need extra insulation and protection (hat, neck and ankle gators, mittens with long sleeves). Mittens are warmer than gloves. Inner layer is wicking (includes feet and hands). Middle layer is insulation. Outer layer is protection against wind and water. Change into dry long johns and socks before going to bed. Nothing dries once it's wet. Don't wear too much in your sleeping bag. Balaclava for sleeping. Good insulation below your bag (I use r-9). Get an army surplus wool blanket and cover the entire floor of your tent. Eat massive amounts all the time, lots of fat and protein before going to bed. Have a snack ready in case you wake up cold (food = warmth). Do Not Sweat, keep yourself comfortably cool. Move if you're cold. Stay away from fires and warm places unless you'll be there for at least an hour (the heat will slow down your metabolism). Stay hydrated! Keep a small water bottle inside your coat so you are drinking warm water. Boots need removable liners, like Sorrels. Put them in the bottom of your bag at night. Replace the cheap foot beds with something with better insulation. Put newspaper in your boots at night to keep them in a shape that you can put on in the morning when they are rock hard. Fill a Nalgene bottle with boiling water, wrap with insulation, and place on your thighs at night to warm your entire body. For us old guys, keep a bottle in your tent when you wake up to pee because it will take 20 minutes to put all your clothes on. Layer sleeping bags - use a second bag as a blanket over the first (prevents tight spots that compress insulation) or get an old Hollubar down bag (so nice compared to high tech insulation). Bring extra gloves/mittens. Bring a good attitude. Don't sit in snow. Rather than dig the snow out from under your tent pack it down and let it harden - snow is great insulation. Bury all your water bottles under a foot of snow else they will be rock solid. Those little green 1 lb propane cans are worthless in cold weather, we got 5 lb tanks. When setting up tent do not put warm tent poles in snow as they will melt the snow, get wet, and freeze. The first symptom of kids getting hypothermic is them feeling sick. Tell everyone to look out for each other. Have fun and keep busy playing. There is nothing better than bragging to your office mates that your 11 year old kids slept in something considerably colder than their freezer and had fun doing it.

1. What reasons has your troop sent a Scout home? Bringing marijuana to camp. In my troop if a scout doesn't obey his PL, it goes to the SPL. If still no result it goes to the SM. The SM decides if the PL and SPL honestly tried. If so, the boy goes home. I've never actually had to take a scout home but I did go looking for my keys one time before everyone decided this was really about to happen. Once the problem scout understands the process he starts listening to the scouts a lot like he listens to the adults. That's the real issue here: Do the scouts respect the scout leadership. 2. Is there a procedure that must be followed? Ex. forms to be filled out, persons to be notified, number of Scout leaders to be involved in the decision? Inform the parent. 3. Other than sending a Scout home, where are the other discipline methods you have used? Give everyone a chance to cool down. Talk to the scout about what the Scout Oath and Law are about. Tell him you're disappointed. Ask him what it will take for him to live up to who he is. 4. Are parents allowed to contest sending a scout home? Not in my troop. 5. Does the Scout camp have to be informed? If it's summer camp, yes. They need to know who is around in case there's an evacuation. In the case of something illegal, absolutely. 6. Is there some standards so discipline is uniform meaning what gets a Scout a lecture and KP in one troop get the same Scout sent home in another? Doubt it.

Agreed. Lot's of tea leaves. Is that a local view or national? My guess is there are arguments going on within all of these pie slices, to use a phrase from some other thread I probably couldn't find again.

I can see the tendency in all of these slices to push more religion and drop the outdoors or leadership. People with hammers look for nails, and when everyone is of the same religion that hammer is going to get bigger. Something else will have to give. All the church youth groups I hear about from my scouts are run very differently than a troop. They are all about entertaining the kids while teaching them religion and the focus of boy scouts is more on kids making decisions, where religion is less important. Who is going to be the keeper of the Green Bar Bill flame? I can guarantee you if the Union of Reform Judaism decided to make it's own scout program they would have no idea who GBB is. I suspect the same goes for all the other slices.

If you truly value your blood pressure then go spend some time with your scouts. It put me in a much better mood. Edit: reiterate: nobody here is bothering me, I just see so much potential for scouting and the idea of siloning scouts into LDS scouts, Catholic scouts, TL, ad nauseam is just defeating some of the great aspects of scouts.

If you look at the page referenced, there are about 75,000 units chartered by religious organizations, about 10,000 from civic organizations, and about 7,000 related to schools. 92k units by my rough adding. There are 38,000 LDS units but they seem to have small units (11 kids per unit).