AZScouter

I never intended this to be a discussion of co-ed scouting in general, but since foxwhisker opened the door... Nearly every country in the world has co-ed scouting. Mexico, Canada, England, Australia, Germany, the list goes on. Do you know who doesn't? Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... puts us in good company, no? We've made great strides and one day we will be co-ed, I'm fairly sure of that. Jamboree is not a "Boy Scout" event, there were many young ladies in attendance including two from our council (my daughter is one). I agree the OA is a Boy Scout program and can accept that until the program becomes co-ed girls will not be able to be tapped out. Fox, you should really read what you posted, I hope you are not as closed minded and elitist as you sound. If you really feel women should not be allowed, then you should resign and allow a man to take over. I hope I have your attention now. The point is our program is what is today because of the contributions of all Scouters, not just the males. In our council half of our professionals are female and many volunteers in key positions are female and are providing invaluable service. Imagine is they could not make their contributions because of their gender. For many years I have read about the "Scouting Family"; you see it referred to in Boy's Life and Scouting as well as other literature. Well,I've been involved in the BSA for thirty years, my wife for seventeen and we've never been a "Scouting Family" until two years ago. Thankfully the Venturing program is allowing girls to be a part of the BSA. My daughter has staffed at our local camp the last two years, at the rifle range as a Certified Range Safety Officer. She staffed Jambo in the Archery action center and plans to attend World Jambo. She earned her Gold Award and recently became our Councils first female Silver Awardee. My younger daughters look foward to their chance. I do find it interesting to know that some people consider girls a distraction (especially a woman). I thought that by now we were beyond those beliefs. One of the arguements used when woman were first allowed to be Scoutmasters was , "how can a woman teach a boy to become a young man?". Thankfully the BSA didn't listen to those pundits and did the right thing by allowing women to hold those positions. Maybe some day they will do the right thing and allow girls to be Cubs and Boy Scouts. One thing some people overlook is that the Chartered Organization can choose whether their units are co-ed. The LDS Church has Venturing Crews but not co-ed Venturing Crews. I know of an all girl Venturing Crew. So COs could still have segregated units while others could have co-ed units. Another point to clafify is a Venturer can only be a member of the OA if he was elected prior to joining a Crew or is dual registered. There is a lot that is unclear. The Insignia Control Guide says Sea Scouts cannot wear an OA flap on their uniforms?

Allow me to clarify something. I a boy is jointly registered as a Boy Scout and a Venturer, he can "double dip". That is, if he participates in an event he can get credit in both programs. Anything he has done prior to being registered as a Venturer does not count. The only exception to this is a certification such as First Aid or CPR. If he joins a Crew and drops out of the Troop prior to attaining First Class, he cannot continue Boy Scout advancement. If he is a First Class or higher he may continue advancement. This very topic was thoroughly discussed at Philmont this past year.

Backpacker, I could not agree more that the OA is not the same anymore, but I hardly think that is because a few women have been admitted. The BSA as a whole has changed and continues to change. I don't think we can blame that on women either. Twenty plus years ago when I was a Scout women were Den Mothers or members of the committee and only went camping on the annual family camp. At that time the OA was a secret society and none of our rituals were divulged to non-members. All this has changed, and I think few would argue that they've changed for the better. Other changes are not so good. Twenty years ago very few 11 or 12 year-olds were elected into the order and it was rare to see Chapter or Lodge officers who were less than 16. Now 11 or 12 is the norm and we've had Lodge Chiefs as young as 13. Talk about advisor's pulling their hair out(or what's left of it)! So many things compete for these older kids time, today more than ever. Many that I've talked to would much rather have girls along than the younger boys. I can sympathize with them as I remember the OA being the one time I didn't have to look out for younger scouts. Now, as an advisor I see myself doing much the same thing. This has brought up another question. If Cub Scouts and Venturers cannot become members of the OA then can Cub Leaders or Venturing Leaders (male or female) be nominated? I think by nature of that statement the answer is no. By the way can anyone tell me why everything I post is done twice.

Proud Eagle - Thank you, you brought up many points I had not considered. This whole issue came about when the leadership of our section allowed girls (not members of the OA or even Venturers) to attend our conclave. You can imagine the problems. Additionally, we have many female members of the OA in our section, some of whom are very young (early 20's). Combine these things and you can understand why it came up. I agree, the issue of co-ed scouting is a whole other can of worms, but they are very closely related.

My wife and I did Girl Scouts with my two oldest. Simply put, it is an inferior program in every way, shape, and form. A male wanting to help or be a leader is made to feel like an interloper. I know probably 30 men who have experienced this. Additionally, men cannot be a unit leader, only a co-leader. In fact there are not ever adult uniforms available for men. My daughters did a combined five years in GSUSA and camped out twice, once was in the leaders back yard! They saw the Boy Scouts go camping monthly. The BSA refers to the "Scouting Family"; Dad and Mom are Scouters, the boys in varios levels of Boy Scouts, but the girls left out until they are 14. England, Mexico, Australia, Germany, France, and most every other country had co-ed scouting. Do you know who doesn't? Iran, Iraq, UAE, Suadi Arabia, in good company aren't we! I don't want my kids to be part of any organization, I want them to be part of the best program. I want my kids have the opportunity to be Eagle Scouts, is that too much to ask? My oldest is now a Venturer and the middle will be in May. She loves the program, has earned one Bronze so far and has staffed the rifle range at summer camp, but still is not eligible for many opportunities the BSA has to offer. I don't think this was supposed to be a debate about co-ed scouting, but for many of us it is exactly that. My point was, why would you turn down a valuable resource or send that resource to another organization because he has no sons.

Recently I was involved in a conversation about females being allowed in the Order of the Arrow. Of course, women can be nominated as adults into the OA. That is wonderful, but what about girls. Venturing is the fastest growing division of Scouting. Venturers, male and female, can staff JLT, Summer Camp, Cub Camp, etc. They can attend Philmont and other High Adventure camps. They have many opportunities, but it would seem they are not honorable enough to be members of Scouting Honor Society - the OA. The obvious answer is that they have to be a First Class Scout in order to be considered. Well, an adult doesn't have to meet this requirement, so perhaps a Venturer could have that replaced with the Outdoor Bronze Award (much tougher than earning First Class). I'd like to simply see co-ed Scouting like the rest of the civilized world, but that is unlikely. What we have here is an exclusatory policy. In many Lodges we struggle to maintain enough OA members to keep the Lodge going, yet we exclude a huge part of the "Scouting Family" because of gender. What do you think?

I just finished reading these posts and I too detected a negative comment (the one about GIRL scouts). I have encountered a few people (thankfully very few) who wonder why a man with no sons would be involved in Boy Scouts. I have been involved in BSA for thirty years (since I was 8), Arrow of Light, Eagle, and Vigil. I have been a Scout/Scouter longer than I have been married, longer than I've had children, heck, all my life. I have been a Leader with three Troops in three states and a District/Council Scouter as well. In case you have not figured it out yet I have only daughters. What I do have is a deep and abiding love for the BSA. Please don't make the mistake of excluding someone because they lack sons, you may miss out on a valuable resource.