AZMike

Romney says he personally thinks they should be allowed, but feels that the BSA should be able to make its own choice in the matter. Fair enough.

Well, Ryan speaks to Scout groups (in person, not on TV). That link I posted from BSA HQ states he was a Scout, and he was such an over-achiever as a youth it seems likely that he was. Why? Do you think there is some sort of conspiracy? http://www.reinhartlaw.com/Events/Pages/BoyScoutsofAmericaPotawatomiAreaCouncil2012LeadershipLunch.aspx

"One of my daughter's favorite memories of Girl Scouts was not teas, or dances, it was (aside from the regular camping/hiking/horseback riding/canoeing) of the summer she teamed up with her Leader/Dad to do a series of space themed council camps. She still has photos of her dad, and other leader dads (note - Men CAN be GSUSA leaders), saving the Girl Scout camp from Klingons. " That sounds like the GSA activity that only a "Dad" could come up with!

Aaawwww! How could anyone NOT want to be a Founder Scout?

I should have said that President Obama is currently an honorary member, but was not a BSA member as a kid. He did, however, find time to be a member of the Choom Gang. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/the-choom-gang-president-obamas-pot-smoking-high-school-days-detailed-in-maraniss-book/2012/05/25/gJQAwFqEqU_blog.html

VP Candidate Paul Ryan was an actual Boy Scout, in addition to being a conservative Catholic. It will be interesting to see what he says. http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/Congress.aspx From what I can find on the net (and we know how accurate that is), Obama was never a member of the BSA, but was a Boy Scout in Djakarta. (BSD?) I'm not sure about Biden, but it would be likely given the time and place he grew up in. Despite Obama making a statement in support of allowing openly homosexual men and boys in the BSA, it apparently isn't enough for some gay activists, who want to go further: If President Obama feels so strongly that the Boy Scouts should drop their ban on gays joining the organization, then he should quit as honorary head of the historic group, a prominent gay activist is urging. Steve Siebold, a blogger, activist, and book author, said it is hypocritical for the president to support having gays in the Boy Scouts and to still act as honorary president, a role started back in Teddy Roosevelt's administration. Siebold, author of Sex, Politics and Religion: How Delusional Thinking is Destroying America, said that Obama's "two-facedness" on the issue is hurting the drive for gay marriage, which Obama has endorsed, and the fight against discrimination. "Obama is playing the middle on this one and engaging in two-facedness behavior, and you can bet that Mitt Romney is going to use it as ammunition," he said. "Obama has already said he supports gay marriage, but it's time he backs those words up with action so they're just not words." He noted that some former Eagle Scouts are sending their medals back to the Boy Scouts as a protest, but the president isn't doing more than talking. "It's hypocrisy and sending the wrong message. If the president wants to make a statement, he should not only talk the talk, but walk it, too. He should resign as honorary president of the Boy Scouts organization immediately, which would really make an impact that it's time we treat gays as equals." What irks him most is Obama's reference in his statement on the Boy Scout policy that touches on discrimination. The White House statement said: "The president believes the Boy Scouts is a valuable organization that has helped educate and build character in American boys for more than a century." It added, "He also opposes discrimination in all forms, and as such opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation." Siebold told Secrets that as a black president, discrimination has a larger meaning for Obama. "This is discrimination too. It's the same thing," he said of the Boy Scouts policy. http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-urged-to-quit-as-honorary-boy-scout-prez/article/2504478#.UCbFc47iZMI Should he have the courage of his convictions and do so, or is it too risky to do so before an election?(This message has been edited by AZMike)

Here's some articles from Scouter Mag that you may find useful: http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/ideas-for-teaching-stem-subject-merit-badges/ http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/former-astronaut-shares-how-to-get-scouts-hooked-on-stem-subjects/

Those Eagles who have taken the step of turning in their badge will be pleased to know they have achieved the honorary status of "Pathfinder" and the title of "Founder" (the equivalent of Eagle Scout) of the non-discriminatory Spiral Scouts. So they got that going for them: From the Desk of SpiralScouts International, and the Aquarian Tabernacle Church We would like to extend our admiration for those who have stood boldly in light of the recent events surrounding the Boy Scouts of Americas decision to uphold their policies regarding gay leaders, and scouts. SpiralScouts International respects the leadership, and responsibility demonstrated by these brave men, who have returned their Eagle Scout badges over this disagreement. We offer each of you the honorary status of PathFinder, and the Award of Founder (our Eagle Scout Equivalent) within SpiralScouts. This is our highest rank, and as you have set forth to hold to the ideals of understanding, equality, and leadership, that we strive for within SSI, it would be our honor to extend this to you. Our program, which began in 1999, was developed to be as inclusive as possible in all areas: it features coed groups and leaders and is nondiscriminatory in all regards (sexual orientation, religion, gender). The program is available to all children, and we are happy to be able to offer this option for scouts. Although it cannot repair the hurt that has been caused, we hope this gesture lends support to those who are struggling, and helps us take a step forward into a future that embraces all of us as the sacred beings that each of us are.

I've seen so many copies of the current edition with the most important, high-use pages (advancement sign-offs) falling out. A lot of scouts wind-up stapling a detached page onto another page, then that page onto another page, and so forth. I always tell them to photocopy the advancement pages regularly in case they lose a page (or the whole book.) I know trade paperback books can be bound so they lie open and flat, which makes the pages less likely to detach. Probably more expensive as well, but they get a lot of use. Those pocket-size notebooks are designed as a "temporary" place to note advancement sign-offs during a campout or such, with the proviso that they are to be transferred to the main "official" handbook later. There's probably a lot to be said for carrying the little notebook around to get signs-offs and keeping the main book in a safe place, since the handbooks are so fragile.

"Well, hopefully, you are surprised by that, since most discriminatory practices have some origin in religion...or more specifically, perturbations of religions by factions or sub-leaders with their own power agendas." But of course. The Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiments against unsuspecting African American citizens, the sterilization of "defectives" in the United States under the progressive "Eugenics" movement of the 1920s and 1930s, Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger's desire to abort African-American babies to reduce the "underclass," the genocide of the Kulaks under the Bolsheviks, the genocide of the Vendeans under the French Revolution, the genocide of intellectuals under Mao's Cultural Revolution, the brutal repression of the Cristeros by the revolutionary atheist government in Mexico, the ongoing market for child prostitutes in America and around the world, etc., etc., etc. All must have had their origin in religion, or something. - I don't know God, or what he said, but I'm kinda suspicious of the idea he told it to King James. Well, you got that last part right.

Faith - that is, the personal extension of belief based on a variety of forms of necessarily incomplete evidence, and the change of one's behavior based on the results of that belief, is based on reason, by definition. Certainly, the mountain of scientific evidence that shows the positive psychological, emotional, and medical benefits of religious belief (and the corresponding deleterious psychological, emotional, and medical effects of disbelief) demonstrates that religious faith is by no means a bad thing. The enormous majority of reasonable, rational people throughout history, up to the present date, who are also people of faith demonstrates that reason and faith are not incompatible. The number of non-believers who have espoused other irrational (and often genocidal) beliefs provides good supporting data. To argue that the tiny demographic subculture of those who have no faith represents the only "rational" people would seem to be the geeky delusion of that subculture.(This message has been edited by AZMike)

basementdweller: "The flaw in your recruiting latino families is cost....There is no way they can afford 4 kids in scouting programs..." Yikes. Just Yikes...

For that matter, how would a Hindu or a Taoist or a non-Christian Native American, or possibly a Buddhist, feel about reciting the Philmont Grace, which is widely used as a prayer before meals at camps, high adventure bases, etc.? I like it and feel it's appropriate in interfaith groups, but could see where some people of faith who do not recognize a single "Lord" might not. (I've never heard any complaints, though) The nature of belief is so diverse that it's probably not possible to include everyone. At least not without sounding a little ridiculous. ("We thank God, or the gods, or the divine creative spirit, whatever He, or She, might be...") I frankly doubt many people, even those who are not monotheists, will take offense at the Philmont Grace, just as I doubt many will be upset at the AHG's stated Christian beliefs if they think the program's goals and methods otherwise benefits their daughters. There seems to be a lot more cooperation and fellowship between communities of those families with traditionalist social viewpoints (i.e, Orthodox Jews, Eastern Orthodox, LDS, Roman Catholics, Evangelical Protestants) at the ground level these days, family-to-family, than before. Even if their doctrinal views are widely divergent, their views on morality and religious freedom tend to be pretty close, and an increasingly secular society and popular culture is probably part of what is bringing them closer.

johnponz's corporate analogy seems pretty accurate.

"Anyone remember Branded, a post Rifleman show starring Chuck Connors.? (Bit of trivia - Connors was a Los Angeles Dodger, Boston Celtic and Chicago Bear)." I remember it very well. The theme song was so popular around the playground when I was a kid ("Branded! Scorned as the one who ran / What do you do when you're branded / And you know you're a man? / To prove you're a man, you must fight when you can / To prove....You're a man!") that I remember an unauthorized version that was often sung at Cub Scout gatherings: ("Stranded! Stranded on the toilet bowl! / What do you do when you're stranded / And there's none on the roll? / To prove you're a man. you must wipe with your hand / To prove...you're a man!") Connor's tombstone has a photo of him as The Rifleman, as well as the Dodgers, Cubs, and Celtics logos. He was also the first NBA player to ever shatter a backboard.

"AZMike: To the obscure question: I think it might be Kato (of Green Hornet fame), but I'm a bit unsure because Keye Luke played Kato in the 1940's serials, then voiced a villain that was defeated by Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, and of course Bruce Lee played Kato in the television series. The reason I'm unsure is that Keye Luke didn't voice Kato in the radio version. Raymond Toyo (Tokutaro Hayashi), Rollon Parker and Michael Tolan (in that order) voiced Kato on radio." My bad, I muffed writing the question. Keye Luke played Kato (the Green Hornet's assistant, not the Kato who was O.J. Simpson's or Inspector Clouseau's) in the Universal movie serial, not the radio show. He would later dub the voice for Han, the villain in "Enter the Dragon," as the Chinese actor who played Han did not speak English well enough for American audiences. Luke also played the kindly Master Po in the ABC "Kung Fu" series, who mentored Kwai Chang Caine...a role that Bruce Lee auditioned for, but Lee was thought to be "too Asian" by network execs. You are correct! And yes, the Green Hornet was the grand-nephew of the Lone Ranger. Well done. The Lone Ranger's Code is still a good one: I believe... that to have a friend, a man must be one. that all men are created equal and that everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world. that God put the firewood there, but that every man must gather and light it himself. in being prepared physically, mentally, and morally to fight when necessary for that which is right. that a man should make the most of what equipment he has. that 'this government of the people, by the people, and for the people' shall live always. that men should live by the rule of what is best for the greatest number. that sooner or later...somewhere...somehow...we must settle with the world and make payment for what we have taken. that all things change but truth, and that truth alone, lives on forever. in my Creator, my country, my fellow man. I'm not sure about the foray into utilitarianism, but it's not a bad adjunct to the Scout Law and Oath.

I think you meant William Conrad - Robert Conrad was James West on the original "Wild Wild West" (a show I loved, especially Artemus Gordon and Dr. Miguelito Loveless.)

You're right, I forgot them. Jesse Ventura is so out there I don't think either side claims him, though. Weird to think that "Predator" starred two men who later became Governors, and a third who I think almost did (Sonny Lantham). Googling it, I also found congressmen George Murphy (Republican), Bob Dornan (Republican), and Fred Gandy ("Gopher" on the Love Boat), (Republican). But: Ben Jones (Cooter in the Dukes of Hazzard) was a Democratic congressman for Georgia, and Will Rogers Jr. was a Congressman for California for a short time (which he spent much of trying to save European Jews from Hitler). Al "Grampa Munster" Lewis also ran for Governor of New York on the Green Party Ticket. And let's not forget Pat Paulsen...

Or a really obscure one: What side-kick character on radio was voiced by an actor who would later voice a villain in a movie who was beaten by an actor who played the same side-kick character as the first actor, but on TV (for twenty points...)?????(This message has been edited by AZMike)

While we're playing radio trivia, do you know who the Lone Ranger's grand-nephew was?

Wasn't it the guy who played Cannon and on Jake and the Fat Man? William Conrad?

It's weird, but most of the actors and entertainers who transition to political office tend to be conservative - Reagan, Sonny Bono, Helen Gahagan, Shirley Temple, Schwarzenegger. I can think of Al Franken on the left, but not many more.

"Merlyn, how do you explain how the existence of UU, Pagan, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu, Sihk, and Scientology Scouters?" Sikhs are monotheists, BTW.

"I'm still looking for a call for any kind of organized boycott." Oi, welcome to 2012, Grandpa! That's like asking which organization called for the Occupy Wall Street movement, or which organization called for the G12 Summit riots. Do you think the SDS is still out there printing underground newspapers and flyers on the college English Department's mimeograph machine? The nature of social protest in the 21st century is that of decentralized movements based on Facebook, Twitter and flashmobs. The use of individuals in loosely affiliated affinity groups coordinating action through social network sites, while remaining closely allied to the goals of larger political pressure parties and groups and consensus politics. This loosely-knit apparatus allows organizations to create political pressure while being able to deny responsibility if things go south, public-relations-wise.

" I don't think married people should get discounts on taxes. There are too many children in the world already. Please stop making more." As the American population falls below the replacement rate (and which can't be restarted quickly - it takes a few generations to catch up) and there are fewer new Americans to pay taxes and pay for your entitlements, I will remind you of that. I happen to think more children is a good thing. Every new kid born is another chance to get it right. If anything, I should get an additional vote for each kid I have, until they reach the age of majority.