Marty_Doyle

Webelos is an ideally 18 month program, with the goal of bridging at the end of the sixth month of the second year (March if your Pack year starts in September, aligned with school year). Cub Scout rank is primarily grade driven, with age secondary. If a Webelos Scout is a "super-achiever", he could advance quicker. And as OGE states, just reporting on the mathematical/chronological possiblity. Not passing judgement on appropriateness in terms of Scouting's goals and mission.

I guess it is mathematically possible. A Cub Scout can crossove after earning the Arrow of Light, which requires six months after earning the Webelos badge, which requires three months as a Webelos I. So, a eight year old, who's birthday is June 30, moves up to Webelos I on June 1st. He earns his webelos badge in September (a very active Pack, with summertime den and Pack meetings), and then earns his Arrow of Light in March, bridges over to Boys Scouts in April, two months before his tenth birthday. He then completes FYFC before his eleventh birthday. Possible..... Isn't that the scenario of the LDS Scout who is (?) the youngest Eagle that we debated a couple of months ago?

Of course, people who do not watch Star Trek do not get this. Already assimilated.

Lower East Side Tenement Museum 97 Orchard Street a hike from the financial district, but doable http://www.tenement.org Museum of Television and Radio 25 West 52nd Street, by 5th Avenue would need to take mass transit http://www.mtr.org Paul - No, but..... We are planning a camping trip to Arcadia and then Nova Scotia in August. The real boss (Mrs. Doyle)would have to be convinced that a side trip to Portland was warranted. She has already been convinced of the beauties of Bridgeport, Newark, Atlantic City, Monticello and the Hudson Valley, only to see another minor league baseball game, and is wary of my requests now. When my son and I went to see the Rockies at Coors, my wife and daughter went shopping. A very costly weekend..... I may contact you later. One never knows. But we are die-hard Yankee fans, so a Bosox affiliate?

I agree. If you are not posting, I will find myself not looking as often .... and not learning.

While Bob White may be, at times, some of those things that the Fat Old Guy says, who ofthe rest of us isn't also? On top of that, when I come to this forum with questions about specific policy, insurance issues, health and safety issues, et cetera, I actually want someone pedantic, i.e. concerned with the minute details. Bob White can be counted on, almost always, to provide the specific reg, with citation, quickly. A lot of that other stuff? Well, Bob White is passionate about Scouting. Thanks, BW. Keep on keeping on. Thumbs up here.

I thought that the CS Leader book defines a den as "6-8 neighborhood boys". Also, the offical BSA Den Advancement Report (33847) only has 10 lines for Cub Scout's names, so one can infer that the Boy Scouts didn't want the dens to be larger than that. Bigger than 10 should be split. There is no real control, unless you have three or four traine3d leaders. My "span of control" guidelines at work is only five adults to one supervisor, and kids are more "difficult" than adults.

MK9750 (or Mark)- My son Sean (first year Webelos)and I areon a pilgrimage to visit all major league (and as many minor league) stadiums as we can. We've been to nine major league so far, and are trying to plan a trip to the Midwest - Tigers, Mud Hens, Indians. Then later maybe Reds, Cubs, ChiSox, Cardinals, Royals. So, i'll take you up on your offer for directions then. Thanks Marty plan taj

Marty, please. Mr. Doyle is my father. No offense taken or meant. New York is a tough place to know or get around. Someone once said only the dead really know Brooklyn...or the rest of the city. New Yorkers think nothing of two plus hour commutes to work (and that is people who live in the City) and therefore travelling time is viewed differently here. Jones Beach is a great getaway, but not if you are only going to be around for a weekend. And I agree, the scenery that would appeal to 16-17 boys is not necessarily the ocean, the sand, the sun ...... I too have a picture of the Towers in my office. I have had to be tour guide for much of my wife's family when they came to NYC, so we went to the tourist sites often. But I can't actually go to Ground Zero, it is still difficult. My brother, now a retired NYPD detective, was supposed to be at 5WTC in the City's Emergency Headquarters. He was en route, between the Towers, when the first one fell. I was on the phone all day trying to get in touch with him. My family were all calling me, since I was the only other one in the City. I didn't talk to him until 11pm..... Many of my cousins, uncles and in-laws are cops or firemen. (A byproduct of being of Irish descent in NYC). None were hurt physically. Most were there afterwards for months. It is still difficult. I have meetings with the other finance staff, whose office is three blocks away from where the Towers were. When I walk from the subway, I always notice how sunny it is in the morning, and then I remember what isn't casting a shadow anymore. Aside from that, iveymdj, New York is a great place to visit, the people are abrupt (we are all in a hurry) but underneath that, much friendlier than we are ever given credit for. Have a great visit.

OGE - Probaly during the Civil War, when the Brooklyn boys - the Atlantics - started trouncing everybody pretty regularly. I think, but can't swear, the Atlantics became the Superbas became the Trolley Dodgers became the Dodgers and started losing to the descendants of the Knickerbockers, who had become the Hilltoppers who became the Highlanders and then changed their name not to offend their Irish fans who wouldn't root for something named for an English regiment (which they weren't - they played at Hilltop Park which was the highest land around) that helped put down revolts in Ireland but preferred a name that showed their pride at being new citizens and anyway Yankees fit so much better in headlines than Highlanders....did I give it away yet?

Hoboken Ferry www.nywaterway.com $3.00 for ferry from South Hoboken to Financial District. Don't know about parking. OGE didn't mention camping. His trip was a day trip. And Hoboken is an minor industrial/residential city. There probably isn't camping anywhere near. Subways http://mta.nyc.ny.us $7.00 for a Fun Pass, which is good for one day, unlimited rides, so I think you can get on or off at various subway stops in the City. Includes buses. Supposed to be one person per Pass. Staten Island Ferry Pedestrians - free (pretty much the only mass transit thing free in NYC) Cars - $3.00 both ways, drops to $2.00 if more than three in car I would recommend buying Fun Passes in advance through the MTA. Also request Subway maps, relevant Bus route maps (Staten Island, lower Manhattan, etc), and Staten Island Ferry Schedule.

Getting someone who knows New York is a good idea, along with pre-planning. Don't trust people from Ohio with directions (sorry, Mark), since Jones Beach is at the eastern end of Nassau County, and although beautiful, probably two-three hours from Manhattan by mass transit (subway, Long Island Rail Road, bus). Most New Yorker's attitude towards tourists is "Welcome to New York, now get outta my way." And probably not said that nicely. Think Sopranos. But also only initially. Ask for help, and most of us will give it. And as Mark said, if in uniform, probably quicker. New York is all about who you know, so everyone expects peolple to cut ahead on lines, to be brought in around the side entrance to not pay. And they cut cops, fireman, soldiers, sailors (and airmen and Marines), and Scouts a break. Use it. You won't get too many breaks otherwise. My lunch everyday runs about $11 - sandwich, soda, small bag of chips. Coffee in the morning, with a Danish, $3.25. It ain't cheap here. And because there is still a lot of money here, there are a lot of shady types. Do not let anyone wander around alone. Do not carry large sums of money. Do not buy anything off people on the street, including hotdog vendors. New York might have the lowest crime rate for major cities in the US, but it is still not as safe as most towns in Pennsylvania. About Ground Zero. Think of it as going to church. Or to Arlington National Cemetery. New Yorkers do not really condsider it a tourist site. We all knew someone who was in the Towers on September 11.

OGE - Sometime Tuesday, July 1 around 9am. I'd love to argue transubstantiation versus consubstantiation, et cetera, with you all, but I'm not sure of the relevance. I have my beleifs, and you have yours. I won't convert you to mine, and the Jesuits made sure you won't convert me to yours. The Scout Law - Reverent - compels me to respect your adherence to your religious beliefs. And Trustworthy doesn't compel me to override Reverent. This really isn't about comparative religion, it is about membership standards, as Bob White has been pointing out. The Boy Scouts "allows" for the wearing of certain religious emblems on the BSA uniform. Those that it "disallows" relate to the differences in the membership standards only. I thought that the original post was that we could now direct those unhappy with BSA's position on certain inflammatory issues to some other organization like SpiralScouts (for years, people have been complaining "Why do they want to change BSA, why don't they just form their own organization?).

I would note that advance planning is important. Manhattan is really big and not easy to get around if you are not a New Yawker. No matter what the Metrpolitan Transit Authority will say. The Public Library is a looooong hike from the Downtown Financial District (where Ground Zero is)- more than forty blocks. The Metropolitan Museum of Art is another forty blocks north of the library (think ten blocks equal approximately one mile), on the Fifth Avenue (East) side of Central Park, while the Musuem of Natural History/Rose Center for Earth and Space is forty blocks north on the other side of Central Park. Like OldGreyEagle says, one could end up spending hours in either place. The United Nations is on 42nd Street by the East River, and not near anything else. The Intrepid Air and Spce Musuem is in the 40's on the Hudson River, and not really near anything else. Going to either of these venues would limit what else one could see. I haven't even considered mentioning Yankee Stadium, which is in Manhattan (161st Street), but just barely. Tours of the Stadium are available on days when the team is not playing (and I think the Yankees might be in Boston that weekend). And you have to factor in geting back to wherever you are camping each night.... And a segue to OGE: even though it may have been held in Hoboken, those in the know, know Mr. Cartwright and his Knickerbocker friends were all from New York City. I thought there was a plaque near the old coffee factory that tells what event happened there.

I would suggest contacting the Greater New York Councils (212-242-1100) and specifically their camping support people (Charlie Rogers, Director) at 212-651-2955. The GNYC runs three camps, only one of which is in NYC proper, Camp Pouch on Staten Island. Sorry to say, I've never camped there, but have been to their other two camps (Ten Mile River and Alpine) which are well run. Alpine Scout Camp is closer, but would involve more coordination to get into the City. The Westchester-Putnam, Theodore Roosevelt(Nassau), Suffolk and Greenwich(Ct.) Council camps are are somewhat distant from the part of NYC you want to see. You could also try contacting some of the New Jersey Councils for info. The advantage to Staten Island is that you could drive in the back way, across the Outerbridge,and go to the camp. If you want to visit Manhattan proper, it is very easy (and inexpensive)to take the Staten Island Ferry across the Harbor. You would then be a short hike from the ferries that go to Liberty and Ellis Islands, plus close to Ground Zero. I would check with the National Park Services before you go, but as of right now, visitors cannot go into the Statue of Liberty. The Empire State Building is at 34th and 5th, a short subway ride away. You could also go to the Central Park Zoo, in Central Park, about 30 blocks north, which is probably geared more towards Cub Scout aged boys. There is also the NYC Police Museum, the NYC Fire Museum, the Museum of the American Indian, the Stock Exchange, the Federal Reserve, old Trinity Church, Fraunces Tavern, where general Washington gave his farewell to the troops, the South Street Seaport, with a number of old tall ships and other exhibits, all down by the bottom of Manhattan, close to where the Staten Island Ferry drops you off. Probably more, but I no longer work down there. I would highly recommend mass transit. Parking is more expensive than living in Manhattan, and more so by tourist sites. Plus, many garages in Manhattan do not accomodate vans or trucks. Good luck.

I would think it was great if you wore any of those neckerchiefs.I also think the campaign hat is really cool from a nine year old's perspective. For our last Pinewood Derby, we had the boys make slides out of PVC pipe and Matchbox cars. And we gave all of the boys in our den black and white checked bandans to wear for that one night ($1.99 each). Every one there noticed. Is all of this 100% correct uniforming? No. At the Cub Scout level, is wearing 10 out of 11 pieces of the uniform correctly and getting the boys to talk about the one "different" piece a bad thing? NO. A teachable moment that can increase interest in the whole Scouting continuum. What I've gotten out of this thread is that, as I thought, there is no "official" Cubmaster hat. And the Wood Badge instructor agrees, so isn't going to call me on it at the class. Thanks for all of your input. I think I'm going with the blue and gold beanie, if I can't get a Green Bar Bill Smokey the Bear hat.

Of course, if it a West Cork or Belfast accent, no one on this side of the pond will really understand anything yopu say. But it will sound brillant.

The problem is that the Uniform Inspoections sheets are out of date - Cub Scouting no longer uses the hats referenced on the sheet - there is a blue and orange Tiger hat, blue and yellow Wolf hat, blue and "light blue" Bear hat, and a green and plaid Webelos hat. I would have preferred the Webelos hat, since sartorially speaking, it matches the tan and olive leader uniform best. I copuld always pull out my yellow and blue beanie from 1966....but shouldn't mix and match with the 2003 uniform. For some of the other side benefits that Eamonn mentioned, I would like the campaign hat.

There is at least 12 up for auction on Ebay right now, and it is still carried in the BSA Supply catalog - http://www.scoutstuff.org/cgi/catalog.

It is not too often that any of us get to type this. Sorry, Eamonn and Bob White, but you are somnewhat incorrect. Fotoscout is more correct. The hat Bob White describes is the Wolf hat. When the Scouts in our pack advance, we give them their new hats for their rank. The hat with the Wolf badge is specific for Wolves, as the hat for Tigers has the Tiger badge, Bears has the Bear badge, etc. The generic Cub Scout hat, which is referenced on the Adult Leader Uniform Inspection Sheet, has a blue and gold insignia with wide stitching, similar to the emblem on the red and green Boy Scout baseball hat.(Twocubdad - that is also the only place where, by exception and extrapolation, one can infer that the campaign hat is unauthorized for Cub Scout leaders, since it is specifically listed as an option for Boyt Scout leaders, and not CS leaders.) And is not readily available. I can look at my 9 year old's old hat, which we got before the last uniform change, and it is the "correct" one. I'll probably buy the Wood Badge course hat and avoid spending any more thought on this. Even though I have heard that some instructors at Wood Badge can be sticklers for correct uniforming, it doesn't appear to be so in this case, so it is not as big a deal as I thought. It would be nice to know what is the right hat, since I am a "role model" for getting the boys to wear the uniform correctly......

My question stumped the course director, too. His answer? Buy the course hat at their trading post.(I feel like I just got off a ride at Disneyland....) I'll contact the larger national Scout Shop in Manhattan, per your suggestion, fotoscout. Thanks.

I am attending Wood Badge in August/September. As preparation, I have been sent two packages of materials to read, review and fill out/return. In a number of different places, the material stresses the need for correct uniforms by all attendees. I am instructed to wear the appropriate baseball cap type of headgear for my current position in Scouting. As of June 1, I am Cubmaster. So what is the correct headgear? The Insignia Guide and Male Leader Inspection Sheet identify the blue baseball cap, with yellow front panels and Cub Scout emblem in front as correct. But this particular hat is no longer sold, ever since the Cub Scouts moved to specific hats for Tigers, Wolves, Bears and Webelos Scouts. My local council shop suggested the expedition or campaign hats, but the Wood Badge material states baseball cap. I have forwarded this same question to the director of the course. I'm checking Ebay for old hats, but most are "Boy" sized. Any ideas? Thanks.

I found myself in a similar situation, but the cause is just pooor records. I take over as Cubmaster June 1.(I am recruiting a CC with the help of the CO IH. I am also recruiting two other Pack committee members, two Asst. Cubmasters and three den leaders. They might all be in place by June 1 also. Four potential leaders are going to NLE and CSLST this month.) The outgoing Cubmaster is slowly but surely turning everything over to me. I am a finance guy by profession. When the Cubmaster gave me the Pack's camping gear (four tents, a "patrol" box and some pots and pans) and I "inspected" them, I deceided to toss three of the tents (ripped, filthy, full of mildew, smelled bad, old). So I went looking for the inventory listing, to note the disposal of assets. There is no listing. I called the Cubmaster. He thinks there was a list, but the Cubmaster preceding him didn't give turn it over. There used to be five tents, but he is not sure where the fifth one is, probably at a former Webelos den leader's house. Ed's right. The only real course is to start over. But now there is an inventory listing (on a spreadsheet, which I intend to distribute as part of the agenda at each monthly Pack Leaders Meeting, along with the budget to actual report), showing description, date purchased (after talking to the other Pack leaders and the two IH, we decided to but four new tents. It doesn't hurt that the two co-presidents of the PTA - the IH - have sons in my Webelos den, who are going camping in two weeks), and approxinate value. Hey, I'm an accountant. For safety and piece of mind, I would also recommend the following: 1.Design a cash reimbursement form. Needs to list what was purchased, what is use, should have a disclaimer that this purchase is solely for Scouting purpoises and not persoanl. Need to have predetermined rules on what is personal (i.e. leader's uniform), den dues responsibility (i.e supplies for crafts) and what is Pack responsibility (i.e camping gear, Pack flags, flag stands, rank and achievement awards, etc). Do you reimburse for sales tax? 2.Who can authorize reimbursement? Suggestion: one person (CC or CM) up to a dollar limit - $50? - then two signatures (both CC and CM)over that amount. All reimbursement requests must include original receipt for purchases over $25 (IRS guidelines). 3.Get someone on the Pack Committee to be the treasurer. Have the treasurer prepare and distribute a report for the committee each month (the checking account statement should be enough, with some detail on what the checks were for). Two committee members other than the treasurer should review the report before it's presented and make sure the ending balance on the report equals what is in the checking account. The treasurer should never touch cash, only report on it. 4.When you collect monies from Scouts and parents, ask that they pay by check made out to "Pack XXX". At the end of any money collection, two leaders, other than treasurer, make up deposit slip, and give slip and funds to treasurer. Less cash, more trail, less temptation. A Scout is trustworthy, but not naive. A lot of this is common sense and simple. But adherence will erode over time, if not enforced, because "There aren't enough people around to sign and counter sign", or "It takes to long", or "I'm insulted". But by following simple rules like this, everyone who handles money or gear is "protected", including the boys, who do not lose out on an event bvecause there is no money or gear that week... Good luck. Chalk it up to experience and move on.

I remember reading about this Scout in a BSA religious newsletter. That article was longer, and among other things had his parents telling about how difficult summer camp and the troop's fifty mile hike had been fir him because of Jed's ailments, but that their son wouldn't let himself be pulled out of camp or the hike. Finished 'em all. He has also been elected to OA, goes around Utah talking to other troops and Scouts and got into college at 17.....sounds like an over achiever who has the Scouting spirit. Since there are over a million Boy Scouts in America, maybe this boy is the "one in a million" who could do it, and do it right. I'm not going to Utah anytime soon to check his credential. Don't see the need. I did tell my Webelos I den about it, and they were impressed, and a little more excited about Boy Scouts ...... Should Scouters be so cynical? You all aren't from New York City, are you?

The nominal cost $195. I convinced my boss (wife) that I could do without one cup of coffe per day at work (Manhattan is expensive) to fund it. The real cost is the two weekends and two other days away from family, which she reluctantly, but finally, agreed to. Will it be worth it? I do not know. I think that will depend on large part on my expectations. I am viewing it as another BSA training course, albeit a little longer. I do not view it as a meeting with Baden-Powell. My personal metric is "Will this allow me to bring back one thing that improves program for the boys?" Maybe more than one from Wood Badge. I think it will. I am a moderately capable and experienced camper, but this year took both BALOO and WOLT. They were both well run, great and I learned more than one thing at each. To jbroganjr's point, NLE and CSLST were the opposite - poorly planned, badly executed, boring and thankfully only a few hours long. Six days of that type/level of training would be torture. I have already connected with a number of Scouters who are attending the same Wood Badge course as me - through working on District and Council events, Roundtable, and training courses. The people going are the people who volunteer and get involved in most aspects of Scouting, and are the kind of enthusiastic people you would want in your class. I think that adds to the value.