MarkS

It's a big council covering both Missouri and Illinois from North of St. Louis to the boot heel. It is my understanding that the two lodges cover different regions within the council. Remember, right now I'm just a potential ordeal member, with no standing in the lodge what-so-ever, who needs complete the induction process and learn how things work... so please, don't get me in trouble with this thread.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

CalicoPenn... You surmise correctly, I am not a member. My son and I were elected in May per the lodge's Elsewhere proceedures. BrotherhoodWWW, the only indication I have that something is wrong with the lodge's rules is what folks have posted here. The issues pointed out may very well be valid but I don't think I'm qualified to raise them as an issue at this time.

Our lodge does OA elections and callouts/pre-ordeal at our council's Summer Camp. "Out of Council election" was really MY TERM for the lodge's process when a troop will not be attending our council's Summer Camp. The election is actually conducted by the Chapter Adviser and Chapter Chief or their designees in May (before Summer Camps start) at a Troop meeting or COH (or a Committee meeting for adults). We can participate in the callout ceremony at the out of council camp or our local camp or both but must only participate in our local pre-ordeal and can do this by attending the ceremonies at a local summer camp of our choice or at our Fall Reunion. Their by-laws say units can't do this two years in a row and the year following this type of eleciton it must be done while the troop is in attendance at our local long term summer camp (our council has two different properites and four different camps to choose from for summer camp so conceivably a unit can go to an out of council camp every other year, rotate thru the in-council summer camp opportunities and a boy will never attend the same summer camp twice in his youth career--doesn't seem very restrictive to me). http://www.shawneelodge.org/by-laws/index.html http://www.shawneelodge.org/resources/elections/elsewhere.html John... our unit is chartered through a public school district PTA where the district PTA president in the COR/IH. The amount of involvement and scouting awareness of our COR/IH is typical of this kind of organization. I've passed along the info as I understand it but I won't be rocking the boat before I even go on the pre-ordeal sleepout. I have no basis to believe they are doing anything incorrectly. This policy has been in place at least 10 years (maybe 20 depending on what was updated 10 years ago) so I expect it has passed some scrutiny.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

The local lodge won't allow a unit to hold an "out of council" election for two consecutive years. After going to an "out of council" summer camp, units need to attend an in-council summer camp to hold an election the following year. It promotes the local camp. I don't know if this is an issue or not, my son and I were elected this summer so this is new to us. Besides our local summer camp is excellent and extremely well attended by local units. Much better than the 60 to 70 percent mentioned above. If that's the norm for other councils, it makes me wonder if the policy contributes to the high quality of and local participation in our council's camps.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

How did I come up with "Acquatice?" Aquatics is the word. Anyway, I never answered the original question, paraphrasing, "if it were my choice, where would I want to take the unit to summer camp next year?" Given that Peaceful Valley is out of council for us and our OA lodge would hit us with a big election penalty if we didn't return to a local council camp next year, I'd recommend that we return to our council summer camp which is an excellent patrol method/cooking camp at S-F Scout Ranch in Missouri. So much for it being my choice... personal preferences should take a back seat to provding sound advice to the PLC on behalf of the entire unit. If asked, would I recommend to our PLC that we return to Peaceful Valley if given the chance? No, but only because I would encourage the PLC to try something new when going out of council for summer camp. Would I recommend Peaceful Valley to another unit? Yes, based on the assumption they'll improve their Aquatics program.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

We were at Peaceful Valley Scout Ranch in Elbert County Colorado this year. Although I prefer patrol method camps, I'd recommend the Cris Dobbins camp because of their outstanding merit badge program and selections (a great change of pace for our unit). All our boys had a great time with the merit badge program--especially in the Hollywood Experience and Handicraft programs. However, they need to improve their Acquatice merit badge program.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

My council claims that any insect repellent spray (aerosol or pump) will remove the waterproofing from their canvas wall tents. I never apply repellent when I'm in my tent or anywhere near any tent. Now you got me thinking... is the ThermalCell a good idea or is it just as bad for the waterproofing?

A bit off-topic... but I'm stuggling with why 9c is a requirement for the Camping MB. Sure it's a nice thing to do and all but not a camping skill. Seems like someone at national hijacked the Camping MB and stuck a service project in there to force boys striving for Eagle to do another service project. I think of developing skills and performing service as being separate. Getting on-topic... The PLC should always keep an eye towards skill development and advancement when planning their program. However, that needs to be balanced with the interest of the other boys and should not come at the expense of being fun. It's a tough to keep that balance but that's what the SM and his SAs are for. To advise the PLC on how to enhance the program for their youth membership.

To me Summer Camp is one of the big events of the year that needs at least some SM involvement. If his sked won't let him attend the entire camp, how about a compromise? Is the Camp close enough and does he have time to help the troop get to camp and check-in on arrival Sunday? What about helping the troop pack up and check-out on get-way Saturday? Does he have time to come to one day of camp mid-week? Maybe supervise OA elections if those are done in camp, or perhaps bring a treat for family dinner night if your camp has one of those. Nothing like ice cream at Summer Camp... etc, etc. He should at least be making a phone call or two during the week to see how things are going.

Well, no military service here so I'm feeling left out. However, I've spent the last 25 years as a grunt in the MIC providing and supporting quality equipment used by Navy, Marine, and Air Force pilots. I have found that the servicemen (apologies to the ladies) and officers in the squadrons I've associated with to be nothing but deeply committed professionals. Hopefully, they've provided gunny with adequate air support when needed.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I'm with ScoutNut. I'd rather have the boot zippers for easy removal of the legs during activities and the light weight for fast drying. I'd rather the pants be functional when I'm wearing them than easy to modify when I'm not.

First Class or otherwise, our youth always share tents with a buddy and the buddy must be someone from within their own patrol. The exception is when we have an odd number of boys from a patrol, then the PL gets to decide who gets that extra tent to himself--any guess who that might be? Ahhhh, the privileges of being in charge... Also the SPL and ASPL share a tent too so they have better access to each other to discuss leadership issues and the end of the day and plan for the next. Living together promotes teamwork.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Our council provides those 7x9 canvas wall tents too. They provide a quantity that's sufficient to house two boys per tent, two adults per tent, an individual tent for the Scoutmaster, and to separate our male and female adult leaders. However, our leaders prefer to not to share tents so about half of the leaders bring extra tents so we don't have to share. Fortunately, the other half of the adult leaders like to use the canvas wall tents so there's never an issue with who gets what kind of tent. I prefer to use the canvas wall tents that the boys use. That way I have a better idea of what kinds of issues they are having with their equipment. I prefer to keep the flaps of my tent open at all times unless it's raining in sideways or really cold. Keeping the tent open as much as possible keeps it cooler and drier and makes it less inviting to spiders and critters that like to hide in dark damp places. I usually sleep in a light weight fleece liner on top of my sleeping bag on the cot. If it's too hot, I start out on top of the liner but usually find my way into it as it gets cool near daybreak. Our council camps have mosquitos too but not too bad. A little repellent works fine. However, we went out of council for camp (cooler, drier, no mosquitos--okay I saw one, no ticks) this year but next year I'm going to try putting one of those ThermaCell mosquito repellent appliances in my tent. Hang it from my cot or something. Problem with them is they only last four hours.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I concur with those that are saying the SM should only cancel an activity for safety, youth protection, or failure to comply wiht GSS guidelines. Only the SPL and PLC should cancel an activity if they think they won't have a quorum for fun. As far as attending outings is concerned, the SM should attend as many as his time permits with the minimum being the number he needs to ensure the unit is providing a quality program. If the SM has a son in the unit, it'll be good for the boy to be able to attned a couple outings a year without dad (even if dad is the SM) and the SM to attend a a couple outings a year without his son.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Our service center says it came today and we can pick it up tomorrow.

Beavah said, "If yeh don't have demand, it's never going to work." You need to be on our DE's advisory panel... We have two Packs in neighboring elementary schools that feed into our Troop. Neither had enough adult leadership to recharter but both had 8 to 10 boys. The DE's solution was to keep both units active as separate units and dual-register adult leadership so that they both can recharter. The units started combining for some of their bigger events of the Spring like pinewood derby and Blue & Gold and will begin meeting together for Pack meetings in the fall. On paper there are two units but they operate as one... They're stuggling and don't really need any perceived quasi-separation that could potentailly build walls between the leaders. A scout is trustworthy. Honesty [and ethical behavior] is part of his code of conduct.

Cell phones are just one tool in the arsenal of emergency preparedness. Not the only tool. I don't rely on any one thing to perpare for an emergency.

Our policy is that the scouts are not permitted to bring electronic devices including cell phones, laptop computers, music players, and radios, etc., to troop meetings, activities or campouts. We tell the boys' parents to ensure that they don't bring them so that an adult leader doesn't have to confiscate them and contact the parent come to retrieve it. Adults are permitted to have cell phones in case of an emergency or if they need to call the boys' parents for some reason (i.e., did Johnny bring such and such, to put parents at ease when they start missing their child, etc). However, we keep them in manner mode, use them out of sight of the boys, and they always notoriously fail to obtain service around the boys. There are three issues with boys having these devices on a week long campout... calling home simply makes home sickness worse, they interfere with the boys participating in the activities they're supposed to, and they are at risk of getting lost. Only the last two apply on a weekend campout. Adults, for the most part, not always but for the most part, tend to be more responsible in their use. Simply put there are more reasons for an adult to have a cell phone at a campout than to not and there are more reasons for a boy to not have a cell phone than to have one. I take my cell phone but the most use it gets is as my alarm clock.

The best way to eliminate the mailstorms and the annoying reply/alls is to simply hide your distro list rather than publish it when send your emal. Instead of sending email using the "To" box, use the "BCC" box for your distro. It's less work than a moderated email group. However, those do come in handy.

806.52 miles according to mapquest.com. I made a couple critical novice errors in preparing the form but gee-wiz... not that one. ;-)

Well, my council got it out today. Now I need a whip up a batch of Dutch Oven Humble Cobbler to give them as a thanks. ;-)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Lisabob, Look at pages 1 and 2. If you look at the TRANSPORTATION section (6a) on page 1, it lists the driver qualification requirements. If you look at the INSURANCE section (the table), you're supposed to list the vehicles you're using, the owners of the vehicles, and the drivers license number of the owners of the vehicles. You're not required to list all of the drivers who may be driving the vehicles. The GSS sez... "Driving time is limited to a maximum of 10 hours and must be interrupted by frequent rest, food, and recreation stops. If there is only one driver, the driving time should be reduced and stops should be made more frequently." so it's conceivable that someone besides the car owner could be driving the vehicle. Therefore the list of drivers is not the same as the list of owners or the owner may not even be driving his own vehicle. Although I'll admit I didn't have a chance to read BSA publication No. 33737D on Tours and Expeditions before filling out the form so I don't know if it provides instructions for completing the form that would change my interpretation. Anyway, that's what I was talking about. Beavah, Hopefully, for me, this will only happen once. I'm really good at learning from my mistakes. As I said, my first NTP and with our recharter, I've only recently took over handling Activity Coordination. The plans for Summer Camp were put together before my tenure, everything was done except for identifying overnight lodging on the return trip which took some time to nail down and filling out the form, and I let the darn thing slip through the crack. John-in-KC, et al, I don't have an issue with the process or paperwork required or putting together a good plan. It just seems to me that lead-time needed to get the application approved is excessive and can be improved by allowing units to do it online. I'm not sure if the council needs to do that or if it's regional or national, etc. I'm also not sure why the council and regional/national approvals need to be done in serial vs. parallel that an online capability would permit. I expect in time, this may be the case as with some of the online training provided via the OLC. As far as signatures are concerned. Users of an online permit application system could be required to register and obtained electronic signature certificates. There are ways of verifying the name on the form matches the person at the other end of the computer. Alas, this stuff takes time and money. In the meantime, I'm not complaining to my council but am asking for forgiveness and help. Mark(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Lisa, I agree. As a parent, I would want to ensure that the drivers have the appropriate licensing and insurance. I just don't think the process should take at least a month. Besides, the National Tour Permit doesn't ask for a list of drivers to verify that they all have the appropriate licensing and insurance. It says that it is required but only asks for a list of cars being used on the trip and whether the car owners are licensed and insured. The form itself doesn't preclude the possibility of someone lending a car to the troop. However, I suspect that would fall out and the permit denied if all car owners don't show up on the list of adults going on the trip. A webform would be able to reject this scenario immediately and allow a much more timely resubmittal that's compliant with the rules. If you think about it, if there's a chance your plan could be rejected by National, you should be submitting the form two months in advance so you have time to put the required corrections in. However, I'm not speaking from experience. Just assuming that a resubmittal takes as long as a submittal. Also, my Council said they're sending it to National but I suppose they could mean Regional. EagleInKY, Our local Council tour permit czar said she'd put a note on my application asking that it be expedited. However, she hasn't received it yet (it's in interoffice mail somewhere and I'm sweating bullets). She said she'd likely see it tomorrow and get it out for me. So the folks at my council are doing everything they can, I just wish it could be done via fax rather than snail mail. Mark(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I messed up and didn't realize I had to turn in a National Tour Permit request form 30 days before it was needed (yes, it's my first one and I won't make this mistake again). I really didn't have all the necessary information until last Friday but could have probably sent it sooner. Anyway, I turned in the request last Friday and my Council forwarded the request to National today. I now have 9 days before I need approval and my unit is off to an out-of-council summer camp. Is there a way to contact National and get some help on this request. Maybe have the approvals faxed back instead of mailed? I'm also working this through my local Council but so far have been told it's out of their hands once they forward the request. Another coup[le questions that come to mind (rhetorical ones), why do I need to send in paperwork? Why isn't there a webform on the National website I'm filling out to do this instead of needing a month? It's easy to have a general plan put together a month in advance, but the details on exactly who's cars we're taking and the exact number of boys committed to going can change in the last week before departure. Thanks...

Sorry I took it off-topic. To put it back on topic. Troop flags don't have to be expensive. Make your own. Do you know some ladies at your church who can quilt? As far as the US flag is concerned, even a cheap $6 flag you can buy at the hardware store is preferrable to the CC's shoulder patch.(This message has been edited by MarkS)