MarkS

Pack212Scouter said, "Our Den sizes are stretched to their limit. At what point would you say it has to stop? 15? 20 boys per den?" 11... once you reach 12, you have enough for two dens. Pack212Scouter said, "We had 4 new Webelos join this year, and had to turn this and the one before him away due to size limits." Sounds like you had a pre-existing den of nine and passed up on a chance to from a new den of six. Are the rooms provided by your CO the only place your dens can meet? I can see the need for special facilities for a pack meeting but a den of six to eight boys does not require special resources to meet... all they need is a family room, a basement, or a garage... that's part of the reason six to eight is recommeneded.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

If you plan fun and interesting meetings that elicit involvement from both parents and boys, then a lot of the behavior issues go away. The "Program Helps!" is a great starting place for ideas. Just throw in a little imagination. Involve the parents, engross the boys, keep it simple, make it fun. SemperParatus'' had 9 pretty good rules to follow. I completely disagree with rule number 1 (it''s also unnecessary if you get a few of rules 2 thru 10 to work). A family or rec room, basement, or even a garage (you mentioned you home-school, maybe you have a classroom already) that you can set up a folding table in but is not too large should work well. You want a space that''s relatively confining so the boys won''t be able to run around and such. Holding meetings in my familry room or garage worked great for me... you never to worry about forgetting something like you do for an "off-site" meeting and you don''t necessarily have to clean up after the meeting right away. Additionally, no snacks aren''t necessary but they do provide an opportunity to assign responsibility to the boys by having them take turns bringing them. The parents will do most of the prep to get the snacks at their intended destination but it still teaches responsibility--especially if the boys will be responsible for their own clean-up. Scouting is not meant to be effecient, it''s supposed to teach valuable life skills starting with small steps and increasing the step size as the boys get older. Maybe 10-15 minutes of clean-up is worth that. Not all dens are created equal. You''ll have to figure out when the boys will begin to benefit from the introduction of these steps.

A few years ago our troop bought 25 tents. The tents were used by the troop as a whole for our monthly campouts. Attrition took its toll because of damage through mistreatment, normal wear and tear, boys taking them home for drying and not returning them (lost three or four this way), and finally theft as our trailer was broken into a couple months ago. We just bought 20 brand new tents. The troop owns them but we're numbering them and assigning them to partrols. This makes it harder to cherry pick tents when setting up camp. Boys have a choice of four tents for their patrol instead of all 20. The boys now know that if they damage a tent, they will most likely be sleeping in that tent on their next campout.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

What John-in-KC said hit the nail on the head. The boys are your best recruiting tool. Part of their advantage is that they can do it one-on-one. That''s important. Recruinting works best when it''s personal. Work on small groups at a time. Our SM is having a Recruiting Jamboree at the local middle school this month. Plans to have displays and demos and such. Not really the personal touch I think works best but he''s got a strategy. He doing it during parent/teacher conferences. Nothing like a little captivity to get an audience.

Full field uniform to troop meetings and outings unless the activity requires something more appropriate. This includes scout socks and older style pants or shorts and a cotton uni shirt at meetings and the switchbacks with a polyblend uni shirt at outings (I'm making the switchbacks last longer). Usually don't wear the scout socks at an outing. I prefer wool with a coolmax or thermalite liner. Don't wear the uni when an activity needs something else. Wore work clothes, a polypro t-shirt and non-scout zipoffs (both treated with permethrin), during my Ordeal service project. Also wore a poncho as it was pouring rain during the project. Did you guys know that yellow jackets don't like getting inside your poncho?... little sucker got me four times before I got him. Probbably should have worn the rainsuit.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Yep... when it comes to delivering the scouting program it is very helpful to have a little more insight than the ability to quote a fact sheet. Sure our unit requires that full scout field uniform be worn to all troop meetings, activities, and when traveling to and from outings and campouts unless otherwise directed by the SPL (as advised by the SM). However, the lack of wearing a uniform is not a prohibition to participating in our unit either. The boys who don''t wear a uniform when directed by the SPL, will just have to deal with the friendly reminders from the SPL, SM, and ASMs.

Lisabob said, "Some people argue that if it is a boy-led troop then the boys should be the only ones in charge of this, which tends to mean it does not occur. ... Personally I don''t buy into that view; I think it would be better if we had an adult working as a guide or mentor to help the youth produce a newsletter... And at the cub pack level, I think it is essential." The guide/mentor should not prevent the newsletter from being a boy-run project. Depending on the organization of the Troop Committee, the guide may be Troop Secretary or a position created exclusively for this purpose. I think effective communication is essential in any unit. I don''t agree that a newsletter is a prerequisite for effective communication. For troops, our goal is to teach this skill. A newsletter is merely one of the tools that can be used to teach it.

CNYScouter said, "The only downside was that if you missed the Pack meeting you couldnt get one." Nothing wrong with the concept that if you miss a Pack or Troop meeting, you''ll be missing something important. Sounds like another incentive to show up. ;-) The boys in our troop tried doing a monthly newsletter but they only stuck with it for a couple months. In the end they decided that their primary means of communication, announcements at the troop meeting, was more efficient and effective, and instead of investing energy in a another form of communication, it would be more beneficial to improve the best one they had (they also have their annual program calendar, email, phone calls, and web site). They started delivering a consistent message to parents and youth that announcements happend sometime during the last 15 minutes of a Troop meeting and if a boy missed a troop meeting, he should call his PL to find out what happened. It''s still a work in progress.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Whether created in MS-Word, MS-Publisher, or a text editor, my advise would be to convert it to PDF and email it to the unit membership that use e-mail and snail-mail it to the rest. Saves time and money that way. For a Troop, I see the creation of the Newsletter as a youth project. Adults can contribute ideas, content, stories, etc., and teach the boys to use the publishing tools, but it should be a youth project. Your youth can delegate the duties of editor-in-chief to the scribe or create a special position for this. If the adults do this, it seems to me that this would circumvent somewhat the concept of a boy run program.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

To extrapolate on what Beavah said, you have the scout spirit requirement for advancement to use as your consequence. Just be sure to work the SMC to get the boy to admit to you that not supporting youth leadership goes against scout spirit before telling him that if he is successful working on it for a couple months, then you''ll sign off on the scout spirit requirement.

We send messages extremely well... 1. Annual calendar published and hard copies given to parents at the first COH/parents meeting at the beginning of the program year. 2. Youth maintained web site where forms and permission slips can be downloaded. Electronic version of the annual calendar is also available. Parents can sign up for email service and get our our distribution list through our web site. 3. A youth communication plan: SM SPL PLs Scouts. PLC meeting info disseminated. Notices dispensed when plans for outing or regularly scheduled troop meetings change. Method of communication depends on urgency of the message. Could be by phone, email, or an announcement at the weekly troop meeting. Parents are encouraged to at least come to the last 15 minutes of a troop meeting and listen to the announcements. If they ask about providing flyers, we tell them we think that the announcements make this unnecessary. If they disagree, we ask them if they''re willing to make a weekly announcement flyer for the troop meeting. So far the boys decided not to make flyers themselves. 4. Open invitation to parents to come to the monthly committee meetings. Minutes emailed to our adult email distrubtion list. ...most common questions parents ask are, "when is the campout this week" or "is there a troop meeting this week?" You can lead a horse to water but you can make him listen.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Sorry to hear about that. It is an unfortunate situation. Maybe your troop can turn it into a positive learning experience. Maybe have the boys write letters of complaint to your state Attorney General. It won''t get your money back but it''ll make you feel better.

Our guys like a lot of variety in their activities and the activity drives the type of campout. However, what they've decided to do in recent years (e.g., float trips, short horseback rides, etc.) tend to not require backpacking or primitive camping. Next summer the older boys are going on a Philmont trek so this presented us adult leaders with an opportunity to "advise" them during their annual program planning conference. They were looking for opportunities to practice backpacking but wanted the younger boys to have fun too. They were concerned that this might be too much of a physical challenge for the smaller boys. We reminded them that the climbing/rappeling site and challenge courses they were interested in reserving include primitive camp sites away from the parking lot and camporee fields. It's only a 20 to 30 minute "walk in the woods" to the camp sites so it gives the boys going on the trek a chance to start fleshing out gear and technique, maybe gain some lessons learned that can be applied to their prep plans, while the younger boys can gain a taste of high adventure. Because the distance is relatively short, they can do so without worrying about making a mistake or having a "failure" as some have implied may be the real roadblock to boys wanting to do this kind of activity. Hopefully, this will be an activity they enjoy and will grow upon it next year. I'm kind of hoping they do a day long "walk in the woods" next year. Just choose a trail head, walk in as far as the slowest boy can in a day (no goal on minimum distance, just have fun), camp for the night, and walk out the next morning--anyway, I'll be holding this piece of advice in my hand should the opportunity to play it comes at their planning conference next year. Anyway, as my exmaple implies, my suggestion is to not so much try to drum up interest in an activity but to advise the boys on how to put a new twist on the activities they do plan to keep them fresh. Get the foot in the door and start small. If they like it, they will build upon it. If not, it's not the end of the world.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Tour Permits Online! We've asked in this thread and they say they'll deliver. Coming to a National Council web site near you... http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ms

By the book and in our troop the TG, like the SPL and ASPL, are not part of a patrol. He's an older boy, so at the discretion of the SPL and who is actually attending a particular campout, he can either tent solo or with the SPL or ASPL (usually when both do not attend an outing) or a buddy from his home patrol. However, the SM/SAs and SPL/PLC (we) came to an agreement long ago that we prefer that boys in the NSP do not tent solo. So when an odd number of boys from the NSP go on a campout, the TG will tent with one of them (our tents have space for at most two boys). We also have an agreement that the TG should eat with the NSP so he can teach and monitor the progress of their cooking skills. On the other hand, the SPL and ASPL, eat with the adult patrol. They've mastered the fundamentals of duty rosters and cooking. We'd rather that they focus on being the troop leaders during meal times instead of frying eggs.

Our camporees are organized by our Distict OA Chapter. It seems to me that having youth and advisors from several units and district plan the camporee would likely result in fewer conflicts and produce higher quality event than one planned by a single unit. Our council, districts, and OA lodge do a pretty good job of avoiding conflicts with each other. What they don't do is avoid scheduling their activities, camporees or otherwise, on three day holiday weekends when schools are likely to be closed (e.g., MLK Day or President's Day). These weekends are primo opportunities for units to have an extended outing or activity or go out of council for a more unique experience. Maybe even tie in their activity to the holiday as an educational event.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Bob T said, "New kid was not interested. Can't win 'em all." I don't have a problem with the fact that some boys aren't interested in scouting. I really don't. They don't have to be in scouts to have a productive interest. However, the new kid across the street doesn't seem to know how to make friends. Belittling a potential friends' interests does not make for a good first impression. At least your boy took the high road. You can't ask for much more than that.

Beavah said, "...Can yeh even name a single adult in the program who wasn't a scout as a youth?... ...I don't know of any council anywhere that has a bunch of excess enthusiastic adults around lookin' to start new units... ...And as for Gen-X, I count you guys as at least a dozen steps better than da Baby Boomers..." Most of the more active and involved adults in my son's troop were not scouts as a youth. There's at least one adult in each district who is very enthusiastic about starting new units. It's the DE. He'll start as many units as possible. Quality of the program be darned. Yep, Gen-Xers are a credit to their parents.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

My wife and I had a conversation along these lines last night. My son starts middle school this fall. It's a new school and she's worried about him being able to adjust to the new environment. He has some special needs which require educational therapy and she's worried about it being available for him from the git-go. Sort of like summer camp. She wanted me to follow him around on the first day and make sure he got adjusted. I gave him a map and pointed, "you're first merit badge class is down that road and on the right, see on the map? Yes, dad. Have fun... okay." He was about a half hour late for that first class of summer camp but made up what he missed later in the week. He'll be fine if mom stays out of his way. Just don't tell her I said that. ;-)

My troop attended summer camp at Peaceful Valley in June. It was an out-of-council camp for us. I have only one question... there were homes around the property? It sure seemed remote to me. BTW, if the neighbors have problems with the noise, maybe they can move to our camp site because I never heard any of the shootin sports there. However, the shooting sports area was about 3/4 of a mile from our campsite and isolated by a 100 foot cliff (realy a steep hill) from out camp site. Actually, looking at the topo map I bought as a souviner. The rifle range is near the Southern boundary of the property, just East of the main road, in a valley about 1/4 of a mile wide with 100 foot cliffs on the East and West sides. It makes sense that the sound could reverberate up and down this valley. There's also an airstrip a half mile South of the shooting range but I didn't say anything about the neihbors complaining about aircraft. Speaking of aircraft, while we were at camp, there were several times I witnessed small aircraft above the property doing stall recovery practice. I kind of wondered if the DAC gave them permission to shut off their engines and see if they could restart them above the ranch.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Beavah said, "Awards in life aren't an automatic thing." No... but if most parents had their way, they would be. For example, last year my son's school awarded a grand prize and nine recognition ribbons for their annual science fair. A parent complained and this year they awarded ten recognition ribbons. Apparently, their's no room for failure in elementary school. Most parents today just don't want to expose their children to the potential for failure in the things they do. BTW... my son won the grand prize ribbon. ;-)

New copies at http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ for $18.

Who... SPL, ASPL, PLs, and TGs plus the scribe. The boys let the scribe vote even though by the book, he's not supposed to be a voting member of the PLC. Our PLC currently usually consists of six boys (three patrols, one TG) so letting the scribe vote provides an odd number for tie-breakers (although they make most decisions based on a consensus). At least two adults attend. Officially the SM and at least one SA attend to provide adult supervision and advice but we're not so rigid to prevent an MC from attending and offering input. If the SPL and SM can not both attend the meeting, it's a show-stopper and the meeting is rescheduled. When... Monthly, prior to the first troop meeting of the month--a different day of the week than the troop meeting. Where... A convenient place. Usually the SM's house or church. How Long... About two hours. Minutes... The Scribe doesn't take minutes as much as fill out the details on the BSA Troop Meeting Plan forms (http://www.scouting.org/forms/34425.pdf) for the next month or so. If they're doing a campfire, they fill out that form too. Filling out the right forms seems to provide all of the documentation they need and/or will use. They fill out the forms electronically on a laptop and the scribe usually can upload them to our web site that night. Figure about 60 to 80 minutes to plan a month of troop meetings, another 15-20 minutes to discuss the upcoming outing, and another 15-20 minutes for other issues/changing existing plans. In their monthly PLC meetings, the boys assess the troop meetings, activities, and outings for the prior month and conduct the detailed planning for the upcoming month or two (i.e., when they meet in October, they're reviewing the plans they've made for October, making changes as needed, and planning the meetings in November). The meeting may also include training for youth leaders elected to a position for the first time, as needed. The PLC also has a five or ten minute stand up meeting following each Troop meeting to assess the Troop meeting plan and figure out if they have any follow up actions to do (such as call their patrols with an announcement they forgot to make during the meeting). It used to be a rather long 20 minute meeting where they sat at a table but I suggested they stand up and form a circle when they assess their plan. The suggestion eliminited about five to ten minutes of unrelated chatter and the boys really liked that they could do just as much business in half the time so they kept it. In case you're wondering... Yes, our SPL and ASPL tend to be older boys in the unit. The boys have imposed bylaws on the SPL and ASPL requiring them to have at least attained Star rank and have completed NYLT. PLs must have attained First Class rank and APLs Second Class. One of the scribe's tasks is to manage the Troop web site, so he tends to be an older boy too. Our unit had a tradition of well run PLC meetings before my son crossed over and I became an SA. Their agenda is pretty much a cook-booked recipe for each month (i.e., check their meeting plans for this month, make meeting plans for next month, are they ready for the campout, what are they going to start, stop, and continue doing...).(This message has been edited by MarkS)

According to this web site, http://www.honorpub.com/scout-e-zine/vol03/council_history/mo_history.htm, the council mergers took place more than 11 years ago.

I've been through this before too. The pack my son joined as a Tiger Cub had a nice string of three strong, enthusiastic, Cubmasters who motiviated Den Leaders and made the program fun for the adults. Each took on the job for a couple years so strong leadership was established and demonstrated well before my son joined the unit. When my son joined there were probably 40 to 50 boys in the Pack. However, about the time my son was a Bear they all had moved on. Two took on leadership positions with the Troop chartered at the same school and had arranged for a smooth transition to the third but after a year he abruptly quit as Cubmaster because his employer transferred him to another state. He had no time to transition the Cubmaster position to another adult and help him get familiar with the job. I was asked to be Cubmaster but turned it down. I didn't know what to expect with that. Instead I had a better idea of what a Den Leader needed to do and volunteered to be the Den Leader of my son's den. Unfortunately, the Cubmaster that finally volunteered to take over was little more than a warm body--the same thing happened with the Committee Chair. Before long I was a one man show, planning the Pack meetings for the Cubmaster and organizing the committee meetings for the Committee Chair. Before long I also ended up being the Pack Advancement Chair, Membership Chair, and Trainer just to keep the program going. The other Den Leaders were better but some still didn't meet weekly (which I found was less work in the long run but couldn't convince them) nor did they ever take their boys to council sponsored resident camping for Cub Scouts (Dad & Lad, Webelos Mini-Camp, or Webelos Weeklong Camp). All along pleading and begging for help from our UC and DE which was never forthcoming. By the time I finally took Wood Badge the summer before my last year in the Pack we had about 20 boys left. It gave me some insights on what needed to be done to save-the-pack. Three of my five Wood Badge ticket items were of a "save-the-pack" nature. I planned a Fall recruiting drive to supplement the drive conducted by Council at the beginning of the School Year. I prepared a one hour orientation training session for new parents and leaders to show them the ropes and encourage them to take training offered by our District Trainers. I planned a Pack overnight campout and campfire (by myself after three attempts get the Pack committee together to do it failed). The ticket items were designed to recruit, train, and retain. I HAD A PLAN. IT DIDN'T WORK. It started off great. We had 23 new boys join the unit (could of had more if the Cubmaster didn't let several parents go home from our joining meeting without collecting whatever cash they had on them--they were short the registration fee and he said they could pay at the first den meeting... they didn't show... you need to get some cash, any amount, and start Den Meetings right way), but only four parents came to my class. Then in October we had 35+ boys and a total of 60 people come to the overnighter, but only 11 boys showed up for the November pack meeting. What happened? Some of the other Den Leaders weren't doing their jobs--the ones that skipped my class. They weren't putting together a quality weekly program. Packs live and die by the Den Leaders. If your Cubmaster is a warm body, you need self-motivating Den Leaders. Problem is it's easier to find one leader to motivate others than to find a bunch of self-motivators. However, that one leader needs to be in the right position. I was the motivator in our Pack but I was a Den Leader, not the Cubmaster. The Cubmaster sets the tone and it's hard to overcome that. The Cubmaster was the wet blanket to my Campfire. Sigh... I wonder if things would have been different if I accepted the Cubmaster job. I learned that if you're not in the right position, you can't make volunteers do things they don't want to do (on some level) in the first place. If you want to try to save a unit, have at it, but remember the goal of scouting is to provide a quality program to the youth. They have a limited amount of time in the program. Instead of spending a couple years struggling with trying to resusitate the unit, maybe it's better to spend that time delivering a quality program to the boys--in another unit if necessary. A year after I left that Pack to serve the Troop my son joined, the Pack was down to 11 boys and not enough leadership to recharter. The Disctrict decided to have the adults from the Pack and another nearby Pack share leadership and they dual-registered between the two units. Now both units have the same adults but different charters. The right thing to do would have been to merge the two units but DEs ARE NOT rewarded for providing a quality program. They're rewarded based on the number of units in their District. Point is. This may sound like a rather specific example but I expect it happens all the time. Inadequate leadership and enthusiasm, UCs that are no better, and no District support results in a failed unit. Unfortunately, I suspect in two or three years, the Troop will be going through the same thing when the boys of those first two Cubmasters I mentioned age out. Those two former Cubmasters are not the Committee Chair and Scoutmaster for the Troop. The adult leaders who persevered after I left, don't appear to have another round left in them. For now, I only want to continue to serve the unit my son has joined as best I can. I have that luxury because there are other units in the area and we'll join one of those if our Troop starts to experience the fate of the Pack. Maybe that's selfish but I'm not sure what I'll do when he ages out. Maybe then I'll give a little back by helping out a Pack or the District Training Committee. We'll see. I've only been serving for four or five years now and this stuff is fun.(This message has been edited by MarkS)