MarkS

Beavah said, "My question is simple. Would you support restricting the driving privilege of your own demographic group (males) because they have demonstrably worse driving records as a group? Which they do. It would generate substantial safety improvements. It would save lives." I'd like you to show that GDL laws restrict any teens's driving privileges... a teen has no license and no driving privileges, gets a license with privileges best suited to his or her skill level, gains experiences and gets even more privileges. WHERE'S THE RESTRICTION??? Males have a demonstrably worse driving record as a group? That may be so but show me that there's a significant difference as I showed you with teen drivers. Be sure to exclude teen males (not in my group). Hint: I know the answer... per 100 million miles driven the driver fatality rate for middle-aged men is about 1, for middle-aged women it's about 0.5, for novice teens the rate is about 7. My answer to your question is simple. Gov't should try to write laws that make the most positive impact in the lives of the people in the community. I don't think restricting the privileges of middle-aged adult males with families to support accouplishes that but I think gradually inscreasing the privileges of novice teen drivers as they gain experience does.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Beavah said, "Nah, let's get back to the point, eh?" I've been trying to but you keep straying from it. You keep trying to tie GDL laws to the restriction of liberties and that is simply ***NOT*** a valid argument. You talk about them being a "scary precedent" when the truth is that the "legal precedent" says that driving is a privilege not a right. Therefore no liberties are squashed. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say, "Baby, you can drive my car." The data shows that these laws do a better job of more safely and more responsibly introducing novice teen drivers into the public by allowing them to gain experience under more ideal conditions before allowing them to drive under more risky conditions. It's like that 19 year old with a rifle in Iraq you talked about in another post. I bet combat is not the first place he fired that rifle. I bet he was trained under more ideal conditions before being asked to fire it in battle. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You see this as an infringement on individual liberties. I do not. With luck, maybe that Congressman can get a exemption for the Safe Ride program and other not-for-profit programs like it.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Sorry meamemg but I believe you are incorrect. GDL programs do not increase the risk of older drivers having an accident. They address inexperience COMBINED with risk-taking behaviors that are unique to teenage drivers. I haven't found statistics comparing accident rates of novice teen drivers vs. novice older drivers but what I've read published by the NTSB and NHTSA implies that older novice drivers do not exhibit the same accident rates as novice teen drivers on a miles-driven basis. If you can, please substantiate your claim with stats. I don't need a link, just the name of your source and the numbers. I'm not even remotely sure why you're bringing up drinking age. That's a different topic and has nothing to do with GDL programs. I'm kind of surprised that folks here would be opposed to a graduated driver's license program. Aren't we all volunteers in a program that teaches skills to youth in a graduated manner ensuring they are age appropriate and increasing the challenge of their activites as the youth mature and gain more experience?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

No Beavah, I think you're missing the point. Graduated driving privileges save a significant number of young lives by reducing teen crash fatalities--ranging from 11 to 32 percent for novice drivers in states implementing them according to insurance industry studies. We're not talking about a single life nor are we talking about liberties here at all. Look at it this way, enough kids die in fatal crashes each year to represent about one third of all the boys earning Eagle Scout each year... 5,000 to 6,000 deaths compared 17,000 Eagle Scouts. I'd call saving between 500 and 2,000 lives a year, worth getting home a couple hours earlier (certainly better than not at all).(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I have to agree Lisa. The program does seem to promote a common teen driving risk and other solutions that don't would be preferred. Teens are twice as likely to have an accident at night as during the day. 3+ years before I have to worry about my oldest driving... probably less for worrying about him riding in a vehicle with a teen driver.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

According to the NHTSA, on the basis of miles driven, teenagers are involved in three times as many fatal crashes as are all drivers. The factors involved in teen driving fatalities include inexperience, greater risk-taking behavior and immaturity, and greater risk exposure (teens often drive at night with other teens in the vehicle, factors that increase crash risk). Teen drivers are different from other drivers, and their crash experience is different. Compared to other drivers, a higher proportion of teenagers are responsible for their fatal crashes because of their own driving errors. About one third of teen drivers killed in 2006 had been drinking and 25 percent had a blood alcohol concentration of .08 or higher. Contrary to prior posts, extrapolating this based on the number of miles driven, it seems that teens are just as likely to be involved in an alcohol related fatality as any other age group. Driving is not a liberty, it is a privilege.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

The only requirement is that MBCs be adult volunteers registered thru their council... they don't have to be registered with a specific unit. If a prospective MBC is not a member of a unit, they must complete merit badge counselor and adult volunteer applications and submit them to their local council. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/ http://www.scouting.org/forms My council uses a somewhat different badge counselor application form and they don't need an adult volunteer application if you're already a registers adult volunteer.

skeptic asked, "...how is the simple exposure of someone to the mention of God... hurtful to you?" A question best asked of separatists such as Henry Barrowe or John Greenwood. A lot of people have sacrificed on the trail to liberty and freedom. Going off trail starts with tiny steps. Merilyn said, "I've already explained how the second clause of this is false, at least for me." It takes a person with faith in his beliefs to say that.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Someone said, that if the SM is not at the campouts, why not do what you want... I'm not sure if going against the SM's wishes for the way the troop is run on a campout is the best way to make progress nor does it really achive your goal of a boy run troop because you still have the ineffective troop meetings. Additionally, at some point he'll find out and you could have a confrontation. Find out what your boy wants. If he wants to stay, you'll have to work with the SM and do things his way. If he wants to leave, then you'll have to find or form a unit that provides him with the scouting experience he wants. You mentioned that 15 boys have left the unit recently because of the way the SM runs the program. Add your son, that's 16 boys, two patrols and a whole new unit you can form. One option is to start calling those boys to see if they're interested in forming their own unit.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Merilyn said, "They aren't representations of pagan gods, they're the English names of the planets (which were named after the pagan gods)." Based on the description of the monument, the stones could be interpreted as a promotion of pagan religion and need to be removed.

I think all of the stones should be removed because their representation of pagan gods offends me. Mercury - The Roman god of commerce, travel, and thievery. Venus - The Roman goddess of gardens and spring. Mars - The Roman god of war and agriculture. Jupiter - The Roman god of the heavens and of weather. Saturn - The Roman god of agriculture (I suppose the non-garden type). Uranus - The Greek god of the heavens. Neptune - The Roman god of the sea. Pluto - The Roman god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. I suppose Merlyn will let us keep the Sun and Earth stones...

I guess the BSA just thinks that boys and girls are more capable of getting along from the ages of 14 thru 21 than from 7 thru 13.

Beavah said, the "Big Man in the Red Jac-shirt...might put coal in your stocking!" if a unit violates BSA rules and policies referenced in the G2SS. I suspect that it really depends on the rule or policy that was violated and the consequences of the violation. I'm sure that failing to properly set up a safe swim area resulting in a drowning will get a little more attention than the troop arriving at its destination 30 minutes after night fall following a long trip. It's important to state that not everything in the G2SS is a guide, suggestion or recommendation.

It's been stated that the G2SS is a guidebook. However, it does state that bold type denotes BSA rules and policies. Rules and policies are not guides. What are the consequences for not following these?

Our lodge doesn't collect dues... instead it raises most of its funds through registration fees for it's campouts and merchandise sales. My son and I were called out this summer and went thru Ordeal in the Fall--and with more than 2.5 inches of rain during that weekend, it really was. My son has joined one of the Crossover ceremony teams and we both have attended a chapter meeting, lodge banquet, and helped out at a service project opportunity but I haven't been asked to make any specific contribution to the chapter or lodge. I'll keep it low key to start, help with providing rides to lock-ins or ceremonial team seminars, et al, figure out how things work, and volunteer to help out where I can.

What do you mean by, "can I go camping without a pack if the rest of the group does not want or can't attend a district camping event? Or even special cub scout days and different places?" Are you going camping by yourself or is some of the "group" going with you? Who is in the group? You and your boy? You, your boy, and some adults and their boys who happen to be in the pack? Some Tiger Cubs and their adult partners? A Cub Scout den? A Webelos den? Depending on who you mean by your "group" and the nature of the camping, some of the advice you've already been given may run you smack dab in violation of BSA policy. For example, Cub Scouts can not go on a den campout at a state park with the den leader and cubmaster. However, they may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council or they can go family camping with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member (could be the boy) of that family where parents are responsible for the supervision of their children and youth protection guidelines apply. As always refer to the camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting... just google it... and read the camping section.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Yep... paying up front is harder to do because it requires more planning and organization. However, the benefit is you tend to have better plans and organization. People who are financially committed tend to be more reliable too... and if the goal is to have adults set an example for the boys, it sets a better example. I agree with Stosh to a point that it's not necessary for the adults to have the same limitations as the youth. Let's take advantage of their maturity and experience and cut them some slack. For example, in our troop, we don't try to stuff two adults in each one of our troop tents. While we may draw up a duty roster, we're not as inclined to follow it because sometimes supervising or advising the youth interferes with who might cook. Meal time can be especially chaotic for the boys especially during a camporee when time is limited. We need to make sure the SPL is keeping the patrols on task so they finish in time. That can distract us from our duty roster.

Why reimburse the grubmaster at all. If you want something to eat on the campout, how about paying the grubmaster before he or she goes shopping?

Sorry... you said deamons, not daemons.

I'm just trying to figure out why you'd want to perform an exorcism on an idle background task... :-S

That's only because they don't have an anemometer between Rush and Al.

Rush Limbaugh faces Al Frankin. If you're standing between them when they're both talking, you'll suffer third degree wind-burns.

Merlyn said, "I know it's impossible to eliminate 100% of the child abuse." Merlyn said, "I'm criticizing the BSA for their lax youth protection which lead to the victimization of children." Merlyn said, "I also suspect the two-deep leadership rules weren't followed (though I haven't been able to find any reports on whether Evans was sometimes the only adult along on outings)..." This is confusing.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

My son and I have moved on to the Troop but when we were in the Pack and I was a Den Leader, here are the answers: 1) I was previously a Bears Den Leader/Webelos Den Leader. 2) Twice a month/Weekly. After my first year as Den Leader when the boys were Bears, I decided that meeting only twice a month was a mistake because there was too much to make up if they missed a meeting, that's why I started meeting weekly. It was also a lot easier to plan meetings using Program Helps! or Webelos Leaders Guide because their program plans are based on weekly meetings. 3) Monthly. 4) They boys in my den participated in day camps and council resident camps each summer I was their Den Leader. The rest of the Pack didn't do a thing because the Cubmaster didn't promote summer activities.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Merlyn said, "If you're trying to improve current policies, yes, you DO need to know how well the OLD policies worked in order to measure if the NEW policies make the situation worse, better, or the same. Old data would also be useful for other kinds of analysis, like whether there are specific councils that are especially bad (or good). You know, having INFORMATION on a problem REALLY HELPS." Not really. It depends on the content of the data and the problem being solved. For example, having data on how many volunteers have been removed for molestation "or similar reasons" may or may not provide you with enough information even if you had statistics of the number of removals over the course of two different plocies. It still may or may not be enough data to make a comparison. How many volunteers were interfacing with boys during the time period in question? Was the policy being followed or violated when the incidents leading to removal occured? If the policy was being violated, was it because the perpetrator was unable to understand the policy or did he knowingly violate it? What were the physical conditions when the incident occurred, camp setup, etc? What were the "similar reasons?" Did they even involve scouts or scouting? If analyzing your data doesn't help, maybe a better solution for developing an effective policy would be to seek out the advice of the FBI or similar law enforcement and other experts in the prevention of child abuse and get their recommendations. Wouldn't that provide an effective solution in a more timely manner at a lower cost? I wonder what youth organization, if any, utilized this approach?(This message has been edited by MarkS)