MarkS

Yeah... 300 feet is tough. Until the last campout, we had one fly for the patrols to share and one for the adults. After four years of changing the culture established by previous leadership, we finaly got each patrol their own fly. What a difference that made. We were at a spring camporee and the patrols even cooked, ate, and cleaned up in the alloted time even though their flys were only separated by the width of a couple tents plus walking around room. In the past, they were lucky if they could settle an argument in that amount of time. Amazing.

Gold Winger said, "Someplace buried in all of my literature is a statement that Committe doesn't have to have a say. The CC should operate based on concensus but that isn't required. The committee members jobs are to do their assigned tasks, not vote or approve." You don't need to dig in all your literature to find what I am refering to, it's in the roles and responsibilities outline in the Troop Committee Guidebook. While they may not vote, they have responsibilities that could prevent a PLC plan from being implemented (e.g, providing advise based on BSA and CO policies, cognizance over financing and dispersement). Like or not, people who control the money have a say in how it's spent. The primary responsibility of the CC is to organize and delegate. He/she is the committee builder, not the committee. However, I recognize that not all units go by-the-book. They do that so we have something to talk about in these forums.

Gold Winger said, "Remember, the SM's job is to teach leadership. The ASMs are there to support the SM. Only one adult needs to be involved in the PLC." Meaning to me that the SM needs to participate in a PLC meeting and the ASM does not. I believe the quorum for a PLC meeting is the SPL, enough PLs to conduct the business of the month, and the SM. I doubt very much that a PLC meeting would be successful with fewer participants. Adding the ASPL, the rest of PLs, all the TGs, and the Scribe would give 100% attendance. Any more than that and you have extra people (see evmori's comments about participation). Personally, I think ASMs should attend to get information from the PLC first-hand. They should be able to contribute without interfering. That's pretty much their job. ...except probably in the case where an ASM and her husband might run the meeting under the belief that the CC has any cognizance at all in making decisions over attendance... The SPL is supposed to run the meeting with the committee, not the CC, approving decisions made by the PLC when necessary (financial stuff, BSA policy stuff). Finally, when two-deep leadership is needed, a married couple providing the leadership could potential open themselves to conflict of interest issues. While this isn't specifically mentioned in any BSA guidelines or policies, common sense says that if a boy says something happened, investigators might think one spouse is lying to protect the other. Yeah... the chances of something like this happening are extremely small but they're not zero--FWIW.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Depends on what you're doing at the moment. For example, you should probably be REVERENT rather than CHEERFUL if you're a pallbearer at a funeral.

Eagledad said, "My observations of patrol styles were reinforced when the scouts in same age patrols just didnt grow or mature nearly as fast as the mixed age patrols. When you think about, that makes sense because if a scout doesnt have example of where to set goals, they tend to just hang around and get bored. All humans need more experienced and mature role models to aspire to a higher goal. Scouts who dont have role models who are more mature and experience have nowhere to go. What typically happens is the adults take over and force growth usually through classroom type teaching. I include Troop Guides in that as well." Doesn't that really indicate a training problem rather than a patrol make-up problem? Shouldn't the leaders in the troop be using the Leading/Teaching Edge principles from NYLT (Explaining, Demonstrating, Guiding, and Enabling)? If the youth leadership applies these principles correctly, does it really matter if it comes from a boy in the patrol vs. a TG or instructor assigned to the patrol until it starts to gel? I went back and looked at Horizon's original post and got to thinking about it a little bit more. So one of three older boy patrols wants to have some younger scouts join it because the older boys are graduating high school (aging out). Are those older boys graduating (aging out) in June or next year? If this June, I'm not sure where that legacy patrol ends up being a mixed age patrol. How are the younger scout patrols performing now? Are they maturing or struggling? Are they struggling because of the make up of the patrol or for some other reason? What might that other reason be? I think we all agree that it's great for the boys to be coming up with ideas like this and that the PLC and boys should figure out the solution but I think any advise we provide as adult leaders would need to be based on the answers to these questions like these. Starting with a mature team and adding pieces to it is certainly more efficient that building teams from scratch. They don't have to go through all those troublesome phases of team building. Aren't valuable lessons lost by being efficient in this case?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I guess I'm in the minority on this one but it seems to me that if the condition exists in a Troop that a patrol with similarly skilled/aged boys is allowed to continually struggle without skills instruction from a more experienced scout from another patrol called a Troop Guide or perhaps Instructor or perhaps no title at all (just a good cook or knot-tyer), it's just as likely that the older boys in a mixed aged patrol will do all the work while the younger boys may or may not watch and never get a chance to figure something out for themselves or go hands on. "What should we do?" "Nothin, we're hungry and we don't want our burgers burnt." "You guys can fix the cold cereal for breakfast..." On another note, Beavah said, "I think what your boys are proposin' is great, and shows that they really have bought into the "servant leader" role in Scouting, and that they care enough about their patrol (Patrol Method Lives!!) that they want it to outlast their tenure." Hopefully, the boys being drafted would have bought into the "good citizenship" role in Scouting, and care enought about their current patrol (Patrol Method Lives!!), that they will want to stay in the current patrol and build it into something special. ;-) Alas, I'm still in the minority but there truly are two sides to every story.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

No... but we've recognized a few with the Artemus Gordon certificate of appreciation. We usually present the award in front of a mock-up of the Inyo.

I don't see a Legacy Patrol in my SM handbook. Patrols are a vehicle for teaching leadership and teamwork. This is best achieved if the boys in the patrol are of similar age, capability and interest. I see no reason to change the way patrols are organized if it does not facilitate their function. Even then, I would advise the PLC to achieve buy-in of the boys affected (the boys changing patrols, the boys in the patrol receiving members, and the boys in the patrol losing members) before making the changes. It's their program, their decision. If you provide them with the appropriate guidance, they can make the final decision on patrol assignments instead of you.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Either get retrained or do it the way you were trained. Don't go changing the way you perform First Aid based on an AP story.

Earning Eagle is not hard. What's hard is holding the interest of a teenage boy in a specific topic/course of action for five or more years from middle thru high school. They mature fast (hopefully) and interests change (hopefully). Often an interest is scouting is lost (sadly).

Our troop tried recruiting at a new middle school that opened up because of school district reorganization in our area. Had tents and teepees set up. Did some cooking demos with lots of cobbler. Did the demo an evening during parent/teachers conferences. Had two boys sign up. One attended a few meetings and a couple campouts the other one meeting. Haven't seen either in a while. After their PLs had trouble getting in touch with the boys, I called their parents to see if they were still interested. Answer was yes but still haven't showed up again. A troop's best friend is a successful pack. It's a tough battle if you don't have one because it's easier to generate a new interest in scouting in boys when they're in elementary school as opposed to middle school.

If our PLC proposed a Video Game Lock-In, I would be okay with it as long as the video games were of appropriate content and the planned activities tied in scouting methodology. For example, the boys would probably have a really good time playing baseball, bowling, tennis, etc on the Nintendo WII. They could compete as patrols where they pool their scores (patrol method) and tie in real games and activities as handicaps to their video game scores. If a troop is having monthly campouts doing a wide variety of things, this could be a fun addition during the winter.

Yep, sounds like the District Training Chair needs to go to training. BALOO training is only required for pack overnight camping. It's not specifically required for Webelos den camping--alhtough I think it'd be a really good idea. Our council doesn't even have BALOO training. Instead they something called Leader Outdoor Experience (LOE) training. It's a superset of BALOO training and includes overnight camping.

I'd ask the SM what he meant by "AOL board of review" with the intent to see if it's what he calls going over the Boy Scout joining requirements with the boys. In our troop, when boys crossover from the pack, they get a Boy Scout handbook as part of their ceremony. We congratulate them and tell their parents that they want to complete the joining requirements before their first troop meeting. At the first troop meeting, our SM meets with boys and verifies they completed them so they can get their Scout rank badge right away. Usually, the only reason they won't get their Scout rank badge at their first troop meeting is because their parents didn't go over the Child Abuse guide with them. We want our new scouts to get that Scout rank badge no later than the second troop meeting they attend.

To be honest, I'm not sure that our troop has a policy on ECOHs. Since my son joined two years ago, there's been only one and the family of the scout (which includes the SM) planned it and had it at their church. It was very nice but the only boy from the troop that showed up besides the boys from his patrol (half of whom were performing his four winds ceremony) was my son. None of the younger boys in the regular patrols or NSP saw the ceremony. That was a bit dissappointing. We're going to attend our next ECOH next week. That ECOH will begin folloing our regular COH. Hopefully, more of the younger boys will attend. However, I'm not sure any of the younger boys will even know him. The last time the new Eagle attended a troop activity was Summer Camp in 2006! Since then, he's only been involved in O/A and working on his Eagle. He earned Eagle just before he turned 18 and graduates high school in a couple months.

WildernessStudent said, "'Leave no trace' I would define it..." No need to. The Bureau of Land Managment (http://www.blm.gov/education/lnt/) and Center for Outdoor Ethics (http://www.lnt.org/), among others, have already defined the principles of Leave No Trace for us. Which say, among other things... "Camp and Travel on Durable Surfaces... In high-use areas, campers should concentrate activity. Use trails whenever possible and select camp sites so heavily used that further damage is unlikely. In areas of very little or no use, campers should spread out. Take different paths when hiking off trail to avoid creating new trails that cause erosion. When camping, disperse tents and cooking equipment and move camp daily to avoid creating permanent-looking camp sites." Durable surfaces tend to be rock, sand, gravel, ice, snow, and dry grasses. Avoid trampling sparse vegetation and vegetation on slopes. Avoid water puddles and mud holes when off-trail. Plow thru them when on-trail (rather than going around and making the trail wider). Don't take shortcuts across switchbacks, etc... Of course, this is just preaching to the choir, isn't it?

AnneinMpls said, "How long will you be in town? If you have time I can give you ideas of where to spend it!" Not very long... I'm already back home. I go up there a lot for work. Spend most my time in Bloomington. Never have any time to go sightseeing. Been to the mall, Lord Fletcher's on lake Minnetonka, and a couple fancy restaurants downtown.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Ask what the role and responsibilities of a UC are, and what the District Commissioner's expectations are. If the answers appeal to you, then ask about training if that didn't come up in their expectations. Our commissioner staff tends to be a good 'ole boys and gals club where they meet and have coffee and share war stories. Units in trouble here don't really get the help they need from their UCs. Is Mpls Minneapolis? I'm flying up there tonight for work.

evmori said, "Not all kids learn at the same rate & to infer they do is inaccurate. If it's 12-14 months great! If not, it's no big deal." This is true. Not all kids learn at the same rate but if you really think about the requirements that need to be completed in order for a boy to reach First Class, if he can't do it in 12-14 months, it's more of a reflection on the program the troop is offering, not the boy.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

By the book... "The Troop Guide is not a member of a patrol, but may participate in the high-adventure activities of the Venture patrol." If you think about it, it makes sense. How can the TG be an effective mentor of the NSP, helping them out, teaching skills, evaluating progress, supervising their efficiency, et al, if he's busy fulfilling duty roster chores for his own patrol? He can't observe the NSP's patrol meeting and provide guidance while participating in his own.

Its Me asked, "Are there troops out there (cue echo machine) that cross in September to better align with the school calendar?" I haven't read the entire thread but a lot of comments have been focused on what may make sense for an individual boy instead of what's best for a den of boys crossing over. I can't think of a single good reason to synchronize rank advancement with the school calendar. Especially given that unlike Cub Scouts, the boys set their own pace for rank advancement in Boy Scouts. Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout troops run their own programs. Ideally, a pack and troop will work together to transition boys from Webelos to Boy Scouts as soon as possible after the boys meet the Boy Scout joining requirements and at a time that makes sense for their programs. Graduation from Webelos to Boys Scouts is supposed to be a big deal and the B&G banquet (which traditionally celebrates the birthday of scouting) tends to be one of the highlights of the program year for a Cub Scout pack. It also comes along during the program year about the right time where 2nd year Webelos would have had enough opportunities to complete all of the Boy Scout joining requirements. So naturally most packs tend combine crossover with their banquet. I personally, think February and March are good months for crossover so the New Scout patrol can get acclimated to the Boy Scout troop before joining the troop on one of the highlights of their program--Summer Camp. The troop will have three to five months to teach the NSP how things work in Boys Scouts, have them get familiar with their Troop Guide, and work on some T-2-1 requirements before Summer Camp. I think good goals for the boys in the NSP would be to finish Tenderfoot before Summer Camp and finish Second Class at Summer Camp along with a couple merit badges. Trying to do more at Summer Camp is not fun and the most important feature of Summer Camp should be how fun it is (that'll keep them in the unit, not merit badges). These goals should have the boys well on their way to earning First Class in one year (and stats show that 85% of boys who earn First in their first year in a troop stay in the program). If you wait until May and June for crossover, I think theres a chance that Summer Camp (especially a patrol method camp) will overwhelm an NSP and scare off boys before they start sixth grade. This is especially true for units that might take a break from regularly scheduled activities between Summer Camp and the beginning of the school year. If you wait until September for crossover, you're just boring 2nd year Webelos to death by holding them back when they're likely to be ready for more exciting age appropriate adventures that can be provided by a Boy Scout troop.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Where are the charts? Or do we get them from our district training staffs?

My son and I were elected last year and attended not one, but two, callout ceremonies. We attended an out-of-council summer camp and participated in the callout ceremony there and when we got back we attended the callout ceremony at our local council camp (plus the other things). I dont recall attending the local callout (plus other things) being optional. At risk of having someone spin-off another thread, could that be something lodges dictate in their bylaws?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Joni4TA, While I applaud your enthusiasm for ensuring quality in the advancement process of your unit, Im going to have to agree with others that you need to figure out a non-confrontational approach for working with your Scoutmaster. Im not sure what the BSA Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures, #33088, says but I do know that the Scoutmaster Handbook, #33009C, and Troop Committee Guide, #34505B, both indicate that the Scoutmaster determines who can sign off on advancement and it doesn't necessarily have to be an Advancement Chair. My unit doesnt have an Advancement Chair. We have an Advancement Coordinator that fulfills the roles and responsibilities more closely to the above publications than what you describe as your function. We expect our Advancement Coordinator to encourage scouts to advance in rank, monitor progress and notify the Scoutmaster when a scout appears to be "stuck" in rank, arrange BORs, submit advancement records to council and purchases badges and certificates, provide receipts to the Treasurer for reimbursement as required, provide a report at each Troop Committee meeting, provide merit badge counselor information to the troop Librarian, and work with the troop Scribe in maintaining the advancement records of the troop membership in our advancement database. So as you can see, our Advancement Coordinator can not unilaterally say a boy cant advance. Committee authority to withhold advancement is the job of the review board. For merit badges, its the job of the counselor. Regarding your examples Example 1: You state that you "discovered that one boy, who is already O/A, had only been on 3 campouts (one of those summer camp) within the last two years." To me, that statement is open for interpretation. Are those the two years before his election or the last two years including time after his election? As you know, O/A eligibility is 15 nights of camping including one long term camp of a least five (or is it six nights--basically summer camp) in the two years ***prior*** to his election. Im pretty sure that the boy is not required to keep up this level of camping after his election. If he wasnt eligible, you should certainly strive to prevent a reoccurrence of an improper election. However, you also state that he didnt deserve his 21+ merit badges. I doubt very much that theres a conspiracy among the 21 or so counselors who signed off on those badges. Example 2: Yes, the BOR is the place to address quality control for advancement but as others have said, it's not a retest. Additionally, the board must come to a consensus on whether the boy completed the requirements. It's not the decision of one person. Example 3: This is a Scout Oath/Law (ethics) behavior and discipline issue. Not a merit badge issue. Only the merit badge counselor can determine if the boy successfully completed the requirements of the badge. Checking the Skating MB pamphlet, I see no requirement to attend the full eight hours of an eight hour class. Behavior and discipline falls under the responsibility of the Scoutmaster, not the committe, and certainly not the Advancement Chair. You asked if you're losing your mind. No, I wouldnt say that but you might be losing sight of the big picture. It's the boy's program and advancement is one of eight methods of scouting. As long as a unit strives to let the boy's lead and implement all eight methods as much of the program as possible, there will be inefficiencies and problems. These create opportunities for the boys to learn.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I like to use SSScout's approach to asking questions at a BOR. Make it seem like a chat. Here's some of my favorite questions. When a boy is advancing from Tenderfoot to Second Class, I like to ask the following series of questions... Now that you've learned about the use and care of an axe, saw and pocket knife, can you tell me if it's okay to run in camp while carrying an axe? Is it okay to run in camp carrying a saw? Is it okay to run in camp with an open pocketknife? What if you closed the pocketknife and put it in your pocket, is it now okay to run in camp? Answer: It's never okay to run in camp. It's a nice ice breaker for the boy. In our troop, First Class is a requirement for our PLs. I usually ask questions about the PL position such as... Who is your PL? What kind of challenges is he facing in your patrol? What can you do to help him? If you were the PL, what would you do the same, differenly? For every rank I ask the boys what they would like to see the troop to start, stop, and continue doing? Depending on their answers, I might ask why it's important to continue an activity or why an activity should be stopped. In addition to ensuring the requirements were completed, determining the quality of his experience, and encourage him to advance, I like to help him recognize that he has an important role in the troop by contributing to its success.(This message has been edited by MarkS)