MarkS

Agreed. Holding them back too long after finishing AOL can lead to bordom. It sure appears that Grandma is making transition plans with her parent hat on and not her CM hat.

It is the CM's responsibility to meet with the UC (if needed), WL and SM to establish a plan for transitioning Webelos scouts to the troop. It sounds like you have a plan, but did everyone agree to it? Grandma needs to make sure she takes off her parent hat and puts on her CM hat when working with the WL and SM to set up the plan. You only need to make sure the boy meets the requirements to join the troop and that the crossover ceremony is a sufficiently big deal. If everyone agrees that April is okay, then April is okay. The only requirement for joining a troop is the boy must be 10 with AOL, 11, or complete the fifth grade. There's no troop tenure required before a boy can go camping. That said, the boy may have individual adjustments to make before participating in certain activities--figured out case-by-case. This is where Grandma can put on her parent hat again. In summary, transition to the troop as soon as the requirements are met and ceremony can be arranged. Participate in activities as the individual boy is ready for them. I'm a 2nd Yr WL this year. For us, its PWD in January, B&G with AOL & Crossover in February. The sooner the better. We're itching for new adventures.(This message has been edited by MarkS)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

You can buy a crystal radio kit from your local scout shop or scoutstuff.org for $9.50. Assembly instructions are pretty straight forward so I don't think I'd spend $8 on a course too. The kit works too! I am a amateur radio operator and we hooked it up to one of ham antennas and we picked up an AM station on the East Coast from the Midwest. It was very faint and I couldn't hear it buy another parent and the boys could.

baden... I thought about that one but decided against it putting it on my list because there's always something new to learn at Roundtable, Pow Wow, U of S, etc. Leader training is a continuously learning process. Plus retraining is required whenever a leader changes a position (even if it's graduating with your den from Tiger Cub to Cub to Webelos, etc.). I didn't want to make a promise I wouldn't keep.

I spawned this off the thread on Training and Insurance... Let's brainstorm on reasons to get trained so unit trainers such as myself can have some ammo when trying to encourage unit leaders to get training. I'm sure this has been done before. If you're aware of another source of info, post the link. Here's my short list... 1. Every boy deserves a trained leader. 2. Wouldn't you rather YOUR boy's leader be trained? 3. Helps with developing an understanding of Scouting goals, organization and programs. Teaches the values, aims, history, funding and methods of Scouting and how they are reached in an age appropriate manner. 4. Provides you with specialized knowledge for your position. 5. Provides you with references (you get a guidebook) on and a better understanding of BSA policies and procedures. 6. Mitigates accidents. As a registered leader you are covered by BSA liability insurance with respect to claims arising out of an official Scouting activity whether you take training or not. However, you, the unit, the committee members, all of us, will be better equipped to ensure a safe and appropriate program. See item 5 above. 7. Lets you know where to get help. 8. Saves time in the long run. 9. It's actually quite fun and the more advanced the training, the more fun it is. 10. If all the leaders are trained, we can spend more time teaching the boys and less time teaching the untrained leaders. 11. You get to make new friends. 12. Cures you of your silliness inhibition (more for Cub Scout leaders). 13. You get a neat patch or two (trained/quality unit).

Sue, Usually it's a time conflict. I tell them that they can also get trained in other districts, then it's the drive. However, both are really only a symptom of the one skill I see that they overwhelming lack... It seems to be a skill most of us overwhelmingly lack. I've only recognized it since I changed jobs and it became a significant part of my new job... Planning and Problem Mitigation. Nine out of ten times when someone tells me they don't have time. It's really because they are unable to plan how to effectively use their free time. The kicker is you really can't just tell them this because they'll think you're insulting them and that's counter-productive too.

FScouter, you're preaching to the choir here. However, dispite all of the advantages of getting trained that I extol to our untrained leaders, I can't always get them to take the training. I've tried everything from the it's fun, to the it'll save you time in the long run, to would you want an untrained leader in charge of your kid approaches, and still have two dens without at least one trained leader. I'm working on them again with district training coming up again next month.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

ScoutNut is right, the pack leaders should be conducting a monthly meeting that includes all adult den and pack leaders. The committee chare leads the meeting. You should also provide an open invite to your UC to attend. The meeting should evaluate the prior month's den and pack activities, plan them for the current month, den leaders should be reporting on advancement progress for their dens and on their awards needs, dues shouldbe turned in, time should be spent planning ahead on long-lead items, leadership enhancement and training opportunities should be discussed, and there should be a little social time too.

Are all registered leaders covered by the BSA insurance? Or does a leader also require at least basic training to be covered? Is there any change in coverage or lack there of for an untrained leader vs. one that has been trained? As a Pack Trainer, I'm looking for more ammunition to convinces the "hold outs" to get trained.

I don't know for sure if "overnight" camping implies single night but the GSS and Cub Scout Leader Book both encourage that parents participate in Webelos Den Overnight Camping. Frankly, I would recommend against a Webelos den campout as described. I wouldn't take my den on a campout unless it is a Council Sponsored resident camp for Webelos, a Council Sponsored joint Boy Scout/Webelos camporee, a pack overnighter on Council owned or Council operated property with at least two-deep leadership for the den, or a Webelos den campout on Council owned or Council operated property with parental participation for each boy. There's really no need to go three-quarters across the country to entertain Webelos aged kids. Save it for Boy Scouts when they are more mature and ready for such adventures. A scout is thrifty...(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Yep... you can dupe a post by accident. No point making you read it again.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I've been a den leader for three years. Until, our pack had a few issues last year and I contacted him for help, our UC was never around. He offered some advice over the phone but I saw him for the first time at our Blue & Gold banquet. He's never dropped in on committee or pack meetings and doesn't talk to the Cubmaster. Unless the pack contacts the UC, we don't hear from him. I have to keep our Cubmaster on track program wise. He's great with the kids, but very weak on program planning and problem mitigation. I'm the one that lets him know about upcoming council and district events we can take advantage of, struggling dens, providing ideas for the pack meetings, etc. I guess I'll have to talk to the UC about this when my den crosses over in February. Not to be bragging or anything, it's not really a good thing that I have to do a lot of things outside the scope of my position so we have a quality pack program. I'll have to have a chat with the UC and let him know that the pack may need some help fulfilling these tasks without a little coaching. They can do it, but I don't think they'll recognize it until after the quality of the program goes down. I believe strongly that packs should be parent run/parent led units and when my boy joins the troop in February, I'm going to help out there, not in the pack anymore. Time to get some fresh meat on the committee.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I figured the Tiger uniform change was a revenue generating device. I'm with CJ. I don't think the program could be watered down anymore from Tigers and still be scouting. If national starts a kindergarten program like that, we might start losing the argument with parents when we try to tell them it's not supposed to be the Baby Sitters of America.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

An "email meeting?" Be careful. I use email at work. It's the life's blood of communication with my suppliers, sharing technical data and files, etc., but we know how to use it. I have found that the leaders and parents in my pack are not so proficient at using the tool. Too many times messages are sent, opened, read, but not received. To communicate you need a message, a sender, and a receiver. With email you don't always know if you have a receiver. Also, sometimes simple concepts become burdensome to communicate in an email. The more complex the topic, the more you should consider a phone call. It might actually take less time.

Need den chiefs? Go to your district Boy Scout roundtable and make an announcement. You'll get den chiefs.

ScoutNut... you're giving me a bad case of deja-vu (sp?) by describing your experiences with classroom talks. I did the classroom talks with our district rep this year. Having a couple strong Webelos dens and knowing that as the boys get older it's harder to get them interested in Cub Scouting, our goal was to focus on first thru third grades. We went to school the day before School Night to Join Scouting (SNJS) and visited every first and second grade classroom. We had every kid hooting and hollering and every hand would go in the air when we'd ask the boys if they were going to ask their parents to sign them up. Twenty first and second graders joined at SNJS. We missed third grade because they were at recess when we got there and the school day ended before we could get to them. We only had one boy come for SNJS and his brother was a 1st grader. So we went back and recruited third graders the week of our first pack meeting and invited them to come. Again, we had the boys hooting and hollering and every hand went in the air when we asked who was going to ask their parents to sign them up. However, only two more boys came to the pack meeting. Not the nine or ten we got from the other two grades. Still with five third graders including the two that were still active from last year, enough for a den. I ran their first den meeting for them, showed them the Program Helps! and explained how to use it, I had a den chief there to show how he could help out, I explained how to apply shared leadership and the importance of how everyone should share the load to keep it fun not only for the boys but for themselves, the boys had fun, everyone was energized, I collected dues and applications from everyone who hadn't signed up yet, and got a commitment from one parent to become the den leader. Two months later and the den has folded. The den leader didn't want to attend Roundtable or Committee meetings or go to basic training. He eventually quit when he started having attendance problems. Seeing that he failed and was likely complaining about the "extra" meetings, no one wanted to take over. Without established leadership at that grade, all we can do is help those who are still interested in the program to find a unit with established leadership. Fortunately, our first year Webelos and Wolf dens are pretty large so the Troop shouldn't suffer too much with the hole in our program as long as we can keep those boys.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I don't know if I agree that having a hole at a particular grade level constitutes a weak program. This is an assumption based on limited facts. The case for the hole and the solution can be different for each unit. Our pack has a hole at Bear den, but the other dens and pack are running well. The problem with the Bear den is the lack of parents stepping forward to lead their den program. Since none of the parents want to lead the den, we're working on putting them in touch with other units with established leadership. As far as packs are concerned... they are parent run/parent led programs. Cub Scout packs with the "semi-professional" Cubmaster are mostly a thing of Fred MacMurray movies. If the vast majority of the leadership of a pack isn't parents with a vested interest in developing the character of their son and his friends, then the pack has little chance of success. Pack and District leaders need to understand that recruiting new boys to the program is a cooperative effort. Not the job of one or the other. Taking that approach, my unit more than doubled it's size this year and made it's Tiger and Wolf dens very viable programs. We just struck out on getting Bears. I don't know why, but this class of boys has been a struggle since first grade.

My Cub Scout Leader Book is a 2001 edition. It states that a PT is responsible for training each new leader and pack committee member for his or her specific position, using material provided by the BSA... It also talks about conducting orientations for new families and pack leaders regarding den and pack management but doesn't say (not that I found) whether the training offered by the PT is supposed to replace or support district training. Anyway I think that having the PT support and supplement district training is the best way to go. All a pack really needs in a PT is someone who keeps track of what training is available, keeps unit leadership aware of this training, and knowledgeable enough to provide advice when needed. The 2004 publication provided by bbng is more in line with what I actually do.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Yep... in the Cub Scout Leader Book it does say that the PT is supposed to train each new leader and pack committee member for his or her specific position, using material supplied by the BSA. However, my district has a pretty good training program which is why I limit my role to keeping leaders aware of what is available through district. I just try to give them enough info to run an effective meeting and continue to "nag" them until they go to district training... Maybe national should change the role to Pack Nag.

In many cases packs (including my own) are lucky to have enough leaders just to maintain their charter much less have the "luxury" of having a dedicated Pack Trainer. Therefore, while I am on the charter as a WL, I also wear the PT and Advancement Chair hats. I took Wood Badge in the summer and made PT one of my ticket items with a goal to teach a training class to bridge the gap between "no training" and District "basic training." Think of it as an in-class Fast Start tailored for our unit. Another part was to get enough leaders trained to qualify for Quality Unit this year (leader training was the only thing that kept us from earning the unit award last year). Anyway, I got two of the four leaders that need training trained in the first round offered by District and am working on the other two for the next round in January. To me the real role of the PT is to continually keep other leaders aware of upcoming training opportunities and that you are there to offer advice if they need it. I have PowerPoint slides for my training class. Send me a private message and I'll email them to you.

The Cub Scout motto is "do your best." That has been my benchmark in determining if a boy has completed an requirement/achievement/rank. As the boys in the den I lead have gotten older, I've raised the chinning bar each year for what I considered their best. I'm also the advancement chair in my pack and while we haven't had any similar problems, it's the responsibility of the DL to report accurate progress to me. I purchase the awards once a month just before the pack meeting and generate a chart showing advancement progress for each den and give it to the CM because it's the CM's responsibility to ensure that the dens are putting on quality programs and advancement progress is really the only quantitative way of measuring that at the cub level.

I saw the same thing earlier this year when I was working some pack related Wood Badge ticket items to help my pack. The more I did for these items, the less involved the other leaders were... CM and CA included. Anyway, when I was done, I thanked them for letting me take charge of these acivities, told them I hoped they got something out of it, and that they could call me if they had any trouble applying what I demonstrated to future activities. I hope things will go well for them after I crossover with my den. It's time to turn loose the reins, move on, and let new leadership take over the pack.

Is it really necessary to file local tour permits for Tiger Cub Go-See-Its? If so, I better tell our council's trainers to update their curriculum... I was told that local tour permits are "not required for activities with in our Council boundaries or for activities on Council-owned property." You shouldn't need a tour permit to visit the neighborhood fire or police station, or take that walk in the park. I found at least one other council has similar guidelines. You might want to check with your council before completing a lot of potentially unnecessary paperwork. MarkS (OvO)

Last posted here more than a year ago when I started out as a Den Leader for my son's Bear den. A lot has changed since then. We're 2nd year Webelos now just a few months from Crossover... and yes I'm couting down the meetings. Took Wood Badge in the summer and it was my very best experience as a scouter that didn't involve the boys. Should be finished with my ticket in March. I am one of the best critters, an Owl. ;-) I'm all lined up to become an ASM in the troop when we get there. MarkS (OvO)

The Program Helps! guide shows you how many den meetings are recommended for each age group through Bear. However, boys likely can complete their rank advancement with fewer. I'm a 2nd year WL and we meet about weekly. Doesn't matter if we have a pack meeting or not. That said we'll be taking Thanksgiving week off and a couple weeks in December for Christmas when the boys are out of school--that's family time. We have three pack meetings (one PWD and on B&G) and 11 den meetings left until Crossover in February--but I'm not counting. ;-) This tired old WL is really looking forward to a boy led program. MarkS (OvO) (This message has been edited by MarkS)