MarkS

Yep... fellow critters from my WB partol were invited.

We used email after each ticket item was completed (though he received eval forms for the 360) and scout's honor that the content of the email message was accurate

I meant WB Scoutmaster... They say it's tradition... They also want me to consider another venue that would make it more difficult for the guests I've invited to attend. It conflicts with our Troop Committee Mtg too. They're not saying I have to do what they last suggested. I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to the suggestion.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

About a month ago I contacted my WB course Troop Guide to set up my Beading Ceremony to be performed at the Court of Honor for the Troop I joined a few weeks ago after my den crossed over at Blue & Gold. The Court of Honor (COH) is next week. The COH provides a unique opportunity to also function as an introduction to the other members (leaders and boys) of the unit I am now serving and to set an example to the primarily untrained leadership of the Pack (who I have already invited) I recently left. You see our district offers basic training just three weeks after the COH and I was hoping that seeing a number of Wood Badgers in attendance might, just might, inspire or motivate the untrained Pack leaders to consider training. Unfortunately, I am told that my course director is not available to perform the Beading Ceremony and they are asking me to postpone my Ceremony. If all I wanted to do was get my beads, this wouldn't be an issue, but I wanted to maximize the Ceremony's potential to set an example to my fellow leaders. I believe this opportunity will be lost if I wait. I am told that any previous WB course director can perform a Beading Ceremony. Is a Beading Ceremony supposed to be done at the convenience of the Wood Badge staff presenting the beads or the recipient? Used to be an Owl... (OvO)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

"(2) quit because parents want for them to concentrate on school and grades." Wouldn't surprise me if stats say grades don't significantly go up as the result of quitting scouts. I always got my best grades when I was also involved in extrcurricular activities.

ladyleader... I have found communicating with parents (and other leaders) to be the most time consuming part of being a leader. For me anyway. I did the exact same thing you did and passed info on to both parents to save time. Unfortunately, unknown to me, the relationship between the two divorced parents in question took a downturn and the parent that didn't have custody started using information on sheduled activities to put up roadblocks for the boy to participate. For example, "that's my weekend and I don't want to do Scouting for Food" or "that's my week and I want to spend time with him instead of sending him to camp" after previously giving the okay for the boy to participate. If I hadn't sent the email announcing the activities, the listed parent would have ensured that the boy been able to participate when he or she had custody. I understand that it can be trickier when the unlisted parent is the most active parent. However, if you're clear to both parents that it's up to them to share information. They will work it out. They may need help from the courts but at least they're not screaming in your ears. In the end it's still worth it because you really do make a positive impact in the growth of the boys. I too became a den leader because I believed in the program's core values and the principals advocate teamwork and doing your best. I wanted to mold these boys into good men. I found that parents are the baggage that comes with the job. You'll find that things will calm down pretty quickly. I'm in a two parent household and my wife is a committee member or at least I was until my boy crossed over. I'm now an ASM in his Troop--new job, new adventures. You might want to call your council office. They might have a legal department that can offer suggestions.

Taking basic training is the beginning of a continuous learning process. All we should expect out of NLE and Leader Specific Training is a basic understanding of our program, position, and resources for further learning. Adding a test won't add value. Continuous learning thru regular attendance of roundtables, networking, and advanced classes via Pow Wow, University of Scouting, Outdoor Skills, and even Wood Badge. Heck, reading the manual helps too. However, if you really what to learn a lot, help out on staff at a day camp or join your district training staff. The most important job in Cub Scouts is the Den Leader. Den Leaders are the ones that have the most impact on membership retention. If your unit doesn't have good Den Leaders, other than taking over as den leaders, there's nothing a Committee Chair or Cubmaster can do to fix that. That said, maybe the most important training for a unit is how to recruit strong Den Leaders and not NLE/LST.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

ScoutNut, ladyleader, Lisa'bob... Sorry but with all due respect, our top responsibility as leaders is youth protection and their safety. Not communication. On the other hand, are the boy's likely to be at risk becuase you say something to someone you shouldn't? NOT LIKELY but it only takes one time. A single parent household is altogether different than a two parent household. In such cases, I recommend that you obtain permission of the parent that registered a boy with scouts before sharing information about the boy's activities with anyone. You have no business assuming the state of that person's relationship with an ex-spouse and sharing information without permission. Parents are much more likely to forgive your caution than your irresponsibility. Don't get me wrong. When I was a den leader, I strongly and frequently encouraged my single parents to include their ex's in their boy's activities... half the boys in my den had divorced parents. However, I quickly found that sharing information without permission can cause the most problems. ladyleader, this is exactly what happened to you, you shared the private information of one parent with the other and it caused problems. Leaving the responsibility to the primary parent to do the communicating for you is the right idea, but I suggest you do not comply with requests for information unless it is known that the other party DOES HAVE rights to the scouts involvement. Also, I'm trying to figure out where on a cub or boy scout application there's a list of contacts. I see only one. Hopefully you recognize now that the privacy thing is not too far fetched. ScoutingEMT... right on!(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I have found that when parents are separated or divorced, trying to keep both informed can lead to a great deal of problems if the parents are not in the same page as far as scouting is concerned. Having both on an email distribution list can be especially problematic. If you find yourself in a situation where the parents can't agree, stay out of the middle. Use the parent that registered the boy in scouts as your point of contact (if you look at the boy's application only one parent is required to sign the boy up for scouts). When both parents are required to approve the boy's participation an event or activity, have that parent get the other parent's approval before allowing the boy to participate. If the other parent questions what is going on, tell him or her that you're sorry but the parent that registered the boy in scouting is your point of contact. Be clear to both parents that you expect that the information you provide to the parent that registered the boy is being forwarded to the other parent. If that is not the case, it's up to them to work it out--through the courts if necessary. I had a situation where one parent would try to sabatoge scouting opportunities for the boy just to get back at the other parent. Communicating only with the parent that registered the boy solved my problems. The other parent threatened to take me to court if I didn't comply with his or her request for information. I simply said that I understand you are divorced but I don't know the details of your custody arrangement but given that only one parent registered the boy, I was only obligated to that parent. However, I'd be happy to comply with any directions the courts would provide me. The parent stopped bothering and threatening me when he or she realized that I required more that his or her direction to comply. You need to remember that communication with anyone who did not sign the boy's application about his activities could be a violation of his right to privacy. Of course, it's a lot easier if the divorced or separated parents can put aside their differences for the benefit of their boy.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Ed... I don't think anyone was saying there weren't more important things to be concerned about. This just happened to be the one I asked about here in the forum.

Never meant to imply that Wood Badge was a substitute for position training. I'm registered for the position training offered via my district in April and May. I figured I knew what the rule was but was wondering if practice was different. uz2bnowl is right... as a Wood Badger we don't follow practice, we set the example. Off the strip comes.

You are allowed to pin a temporary position badge over a permanent one too. When you do that, there's no requirement to take the Trained Strip off. I figure I can do that (pin the ASM patch over my WL patch) or sew on the ASM patch and take off the Trained Strip (or say the heck with it for a couple months). Anyways, we're getting away from a training discussion and into a uniforming one.

Hooray! My son crossed over on Friday and taking me with him to the troop. I will no longer be a Webelos Den Leader in the pack. Instead I will become an Asst. Scoutmaster in the troop. No longer will I be the expert leader in the unit, just a leader neonate. In order to be considered a trained ASM, I need to take ASM/SM training and Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills. This will happen in April and May. In a couple weeks I should finish my Wood Badge ticket and have my beading ceremony by the end of March. Despite completing Wood Badge, what I know tells me that if I sew the ASM patch on my shirt, the Trained Strip must come off. Can anyon confirm this? It'll be a hassle to take it off for a couple months and then put it back on, just want to make sure it's necessary.

General announcements for volunteers never works. You need to be observant of the parents in your unit and figure which ones can be approached to ask them to volunteer (e.g., the ones that always have an opinion about how things should be done or the ones who do little things to help out at a pack or den meeting or activity). Once you identify someone who is approachable, you need to match the job with their skills. If they do well with the kids, you need to offer them a job that involves program planning or execution such as cubmaster, den leader, or their assistents. If they do well in organizing and motiviating other adults, maybe they'll make a good committee chair. The most important part in pitching the job is to describe the role and responsibilities in closed finite terms. Folks don't want to take an open-ended job and will more likely accept a job if then know exactly what they will be doing. Don't complain about how much work your job is. Talk about the fun parts of what you do. If potential volunteers see that the current volunteers are having fun, they'll be more interested. The pack leaders need to demonstrate how much fun they are having at each and every meeting. For example, if you have a relay game that pits the dens against each other at a pack meeting, be sure to have the adult leaders make up a team (of course you're going to lose the race to the scout but who cares, the parents will see you having fun and want to participate too).(This message has been edited by MarkS)

If you cannot get them on the phone, before suing them I suggest you send them a polite letter explaining what the owe and what for, and include a self-addressed-stamped-envelope for the return check. You might find if you make it convenient for them to pay, they will.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

We have a steak dinner funded by oworker1 for all the participants at our RT... oworker1 PM me for the address to send the check ;-) Seriously, we don't have refreshments at RT but there is a drinking fountain in the church.

Heck, right now I'm our 2nd Year WL (that's what I'm registered as), acting CC (because our CC resigned at the end of October), acting assistent pack meeting planner (because our CM is a great master of ceremonies but planning and organizing are not his strengths, therefore we ask our CC to help with this--not really a problem if the CC is only the CC), acting advancement chair (because I'm good with software and my den earns a lot of awards), and acting pack trainer (because I'm the only leader who's taken any training besides basic training). My wife is an MC. So my unit needs a new CC and new MC by the time they recharter. I haven't been directly involved in recruiting because I am leaving the unit in 29 days and felt that the existing leaders should recruit who they feel they can work with, but I've been nagging them for the last 60 days to get it done. Either it will or they won't be able to recharter when their deadline arrives in 50 days. I hope they're reading this.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

This doesn't fix the problem mbscoutmom noted, but her situation did make me realize that chances are every unit will lose more than one leader at Blue & Gold. Chances are most packs have a couple leaders who have boys in their 2nd Year Webelos den whether they're a couple or not. If you're worried about losing more than one leader at once, you need to develop transition plans in the fall rather than a month or two before your Blue & Gold banquet. It's almost a certainty every unit will lose more than one leader a year when their 2nd years graduate to a troop.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Shawn brings up a good point. Having a couple as leaders does present a potential for conflict of interest when it comes to two-deep leadership. This is most often going to occur when they are a den leader and an assistent den leader in the same den. It could also happen at outdoor activities and camping. The couple would serve their own best interests and that of their unit by avoiding situations that make them the only two adults present. However, they both don't need to be registered leaders to be the only two adults present. It doesn't matter if one, the other, or both are registered leaders. Situations where a couple is your only source of two deep leadership should be avoided. Other than this avoidable scenario, I don't see a problem with a couple providing leadership.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Absolutely ScoutNut... but Cub Scouting is also supposed to be a family program. According to my Cub Scout Leader Book, "Family involvement is vital to Cub Scouting's success." If you want to maximize this aspect of the program, you need parent leaders. Let's face it. Being an adult leader is not rocket science. You can teach almost any parent to be an adult leader and there's not a whole heck of a lot that makes them UNQUALIFIED. I think that Cub Scout units will do best for themselves if they select their leaders from the families of their boy members first and then look outside their unit to fill any remaining positions they can't fill.

Michelle, I understand. It can be hard getting thoughts from our minds through the keyboard accurately. Each post is a one-way message with no feedback until after it's in print. I didn't mean to say that we should eliminate good leaders simply because they don't have boys in the Pack. What I meant to say is that these folks would better serve the Pack in support roles such as Pack Trainer and Assistent Cubmaster or Assistent Den Leader. It will make the Pack more viable over the long-haul if parents take a vested interest in leading the program with experienced leaders at their disposal to show them how to do it. Of course, I understand if you don't have both parent leaders and experienced leadership from boys who have aged out and still want to help, for example, you take what you can get. It seemed to me that the overall opinion of the thread was that if you could get an experienced leader to be a Cubmaster for a unit, there's no problem with that. However, there is a problem with that. It can create a vacuum of available leadership for the unit over the long haul because it fails to get new parent leaders involved. It's best to put your experienced scouters in supporting roles and use them as a recruiting tool. Recruit new leaders by telling them, "Bob's son just joined the Boy Scouts so he doesn't want to be Cubmaster anymore, but if you take the job, he'll stay on as your assistent and make it easy for you to do it. What do you say?" Or "Bob's son just joined the Boy Scouts so he doesn't want to be Committee Chair anymore, but if you take the job, he'll stay on as a Committee Member and make it easy for you to do it. What do you say?" Make sure you have a one-on-one conversation with the recruit and discuss the details of the job making sure you describe the roles and responsibilities as closed and finite (no open ended job description). Now you have two leaders instead of one. This is a much more effective way of using experienced leaders to bolster your pack leadership than or putting them in charge. Can you always do it this way? No, but it should be a goal. All I am doing is applying the Boy Scout Troop leadership organization paradigm to the Adult Leaders of a Pack (i.e., Scoutmaster Advises/Boys Lead translates nicely to Experienced Scouter Advises/Parents Lead). ScoutNut emphasized the need for training. This concept puts the trainers in your unit.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

msnowman seems to have forgotten or didn't read the original question posted in this thread... "What's your take on former cub leaders returning to pack leadership after their boys have moved on to boy scouts? Good idea? Or not? What pitfalls and/or advantages are there to consider before agreeing or declining to return as a pack leader? Are there conditions that should be attached to such an invitation, or to its acceptance?" See, Lisabob's question didn't take into account your situation. She didn't specify an assumption of lack of leadership as a prerequisite for answering her question. You have to remember, I was answering her question--specifically the part on the conditions she was seeking. I was not addressing your situation. If you asked me what I thought under your situation, I'd likely answer differently. Obviously, experienced leadership is better than no leadership. See I don't have narrow view at all but am a little irritated that somehow I have a narrow view because apparently you didn't read or remember or other wise know what question I was answering.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I think it is a bad idea for experienced Scouters who no longer have a child in the pack to serve as a CC or CM or DL. In Cub Scouts, parents need to take charge of the programs in their boy's units. They have the vested interest. Where are our future adult leaders going to come from if someone is going to do the job for them? It is better for the pack if these experienced Scouters serve the pack as a PT, MC, or CA. They are best suited in positions that allow them to share their experience and knowledge while the parents run the unit. Sound familiar?

clydesdale115 said, "We have thought many time of changing Packs, but since we are den leaders, we feel obliged to our boys first of all!" It sounds like the best thing you can do for your boys is transfer to another unit and take your entire den with you.

Crew21_Adv, If only one in a unit does and warns the others, then the word would be spread. For my pack, I would be happy if one leader from each den, the CC, and the CM had basic training and attended the monthly leaders meetings. We're only a couple den leaders shy of this. I think we could get by if the other MCs were not trained. While not the most serious issue of having untrained leaders in a unit, the most annoying is having to constantly spend time teaching them instead of the boys. It's a waste of my time to have to give the other leaders OJT for things they should know and don't.