MarkS

You didn't mention how much, if any, help has been solicited from and/or supplied by the SPL. Have your boy ask his SPL for help, if he hasn't yet. In many instances like this, a boy's best resource can be another boy who has had experience in the leadership position in question. Any JASMs, Instructors, TGs, in your troop that were a PL at one time that he could talk to about his difficulties? I'm dissappointed in the support the SM seems to be provided. If he has a leader that is struggling, he should use that as an teaching opportunity for the SPL, ASPL and JASMs and advise them to get involved in assisting the boy.

The Internet is an excellent resource for information on scouting in the US. BSA publications are an excellent resource for accurate information on scouting in the US--too bad they're so expensive.

We use the phone calls as follow-up to the Patrol meetings and reminders preceeding the next Troop meeting. Messages are usually just a couple minutes. Boys easily spend 20 minutes talking to their buddies about nothing, I don't see another 20 minutes calling his patrol as overly burdensome. The most important thing is that it works for us. Our Troop meeting attendance goes up when the phone calls are made. Yep... the PLC should know their school calendar but so should the SM. He can't provide advice on things he doesn't know about.

It was not mentioned what kinds of problems the CC is causing, but in general a personality conflict does not necessarily have to adversely affect the Troop program. At some point the SM and CC are going have to be adults and work together. If they can't, your Unit Commissioner (UC) should be there to help your unit resolve this kind of issue. Anyone can contact their unit UC for help. Hopefully, your UC is more than just a guy who signs off on your recharter paperwork. If that's all your UC does, maybe the District Commissioner should be contacted for help. Try to resolve this internally before involving you Chartering Organization (CO). I seem to recall that Conflict Resolution was part of the Wood Badge training I got. Maybe it was another class. I may not recall the specifics, but I know where all my notes are.

usedtobeafox said, "How about the parents who hang at the Scout meeting and gather all the info for their Scout on Troop activities and wonder why the other Scouts don't get the info home about activities. I talked about a mailing home the Troop calandar each month to keep the parents informed (not every Scout get the info home) and they shot that down. Also on the Troop calandar they want the school activities on the calandar so our Scout activities don't interfere with school activities---the school doesn't put Scout activities on their calandar. Does the SM have any say in what goes on the calandar or how it is delivered?" I'm not sure I fully understand how parents getting information at a Troop meeting prevents other parents from getting the information but I do understand that communication can be a challenge for a Troop. There's no single way of getting the message received that's 100% perfect. We have a calendar with our annual program plan on it. It works fine for long term planning. It may take a month but eventually all of the parents do get a copy. You can make verbal announcements at Troop meetings and boys will forget to tell their parents. You can provide handouts at Troop meetings and boys will leave them behind. Neither are effective for boys who miss a meeting. You can send an email or post something on your Troop web site but you can't guarantee your membership will read them. You might as well be shouting your announcements in the wilderness. These are all examples of one-way communication. Two-way communication is more effective and our Troop has found that the telephone provides the most convenient means of two-way communication. Messages start with the SM. He calls the SPL and talks to him, no voice-mail messages except call me back, and makes sure the message is understood. The SPL does the same with the PLs and the PLs with their patrols. When the PLs have talked to all their patrol members, they verify with the SPL that the message has been delivered and the SPL passes this on to the SM. Hopefully, the combo of an annual calendar, Troop meeting announcements, emails, web site, and phone calls, gets the message received. Getting the message out is easy. Getting it received is the hard part. Certainly, the SM should be keeping track of school activities could interfere with the plans of his Troop and provide guidance when the PLC plans activities to avoid conflicts. It's not practical to expect the school to plan around the Troop though. There are many other extracurricular activities and if the school planned around all of them, there would be no time for school activities. About all the SM can do is go or send someone to the PTA meetings and try to steer their schedule when the opportunity presents itself.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

usedtobeafox said, "MB I was talking about was Entreprenuer and Salesmanship for the Troop fundraising project. They selfish parents also work on MB's during Troop meetings until their Scouts finish and then they drop the ball for the other Scouts and don't even follow up to complete the other incomplete. What do you say to a MB councilor who starts and finishes a MB before the SM ok's the Scout for that MB?" I'm not a big fan of doing Merit Badges during a Troop meeting. However, our PLC decided that they wanted to do a couple Eagle required MBs during this program year. Our SM identifies potential MB counselors for the SPL/PLC but its up to the SPL to invite the counselor and the PLC to plan/coordinate the meeting with the counselor. If a boy misses the meeting and can't finish the badge, too bad. He can still get the approval of the SM to work on the badge with the same or another counselor at another time. As a counselor myself, I would never teach or sign off on a merit badge application that had not been endorsed by the applicant's SM. If I were the applicant's SM and received a completed application from a scout that I did not endorse, I would talk to the counselor and scout about it. If this was a first occurrence, I would make it clear to both that they require my approval before the counselor can teach a badge to a scout in my unit. If this was a repeat occurrence, I'd be contacting my council about the counselor. My main concern is potential youth protection issues.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

usedtobeafox said, "Do you think I am going to let the Scouts dictate what time I donate of vacation from work? I don't think so and I am not going to let the parents do it either." I don't think a boy run program necessarily means that the Scouts dictate how much time you donate to their activities. The adult leadership should advise and set limits. You made it sound to me like your SM is running the program (maybe I misunderstood). You and I both know that's not how a Boy Scout Troop should be run.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

usedtobeafox said, "These same parents always want to get their own way like have their Scouts go to the same old resident camp and want us to plan our trips around their schedule. What do you say to them? The SM is in charge of program, isn't he in charge of what date....he is the one using all of his vacation time from work." Something is definitely wrong when the SM is in charge of your program instead of your PLC.

To be honest, with all of the safety concerns and potential injuries we have with the boys entrusted to us, this is by far and above at the top of my list.

A state too cold for camping? I can't think of any that get below -40 degF. ;-)

From "Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2006" Webelos Den Overnight Camping Webelos den campouts serve to move the Webelos Scout to the next level of the BSA's ever-increasing challenge in the outdoors. The boy and his parent or guardian will be introduced to the basics of Boy Scout camping. A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events. Webelos dens are encouraged to participate in joint den-troop campouts, particularly in the fifth-grade year. These campouts should be conducted with an individual troop for the purpose of strengthening ties between the pack and the troop. BSA health and safety, age-appropriate guidelines for Cub Scout activities, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. When camping with a troop, Cub Scout guidelines still apply for all Cub Scout members. Webelos dens are encouraged to visit Boy Scout camporees and Klondike derbies. The purpose of these visits should be for the boys to look ahead with anticipation to their future as Boy Scouts and observe troops they might join. Webelos Scouts should not compete or participate in activities designed for Boy Scouts. Webelos Scouts should not spend the night at the event if the program is Boy Scout-based. A separate Webelos-only event known as a Webelos-Ree should be provided by the council or district. To provide leadership for this event, Webelos den leaders should complete the course, Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders, No. 13-33640. Reference Webelos Leader Guide, No. 33853 Webelos-Ree A Webelos-Ree is a district or council overnight camping experience for Webelos dens with den leadership present. The local council or district sponsors the event and provides the program and leadership. The location is approved by an appropriate committee, as determined by the council. The local council sets the ratio of Webelos Scouts to adults for the event. In most cases, each boy will be accompanied by a parent or guardian. In all cases, a responsible adult will be designated for each youth participant. BSA Youth Protection standards will apply regarding sleeping and bathroom arrangements. This camporee-style event is intended for Webelos Scouts, with events and activities planned for their ability level, according to age-appropriate guidelines for Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts should participate only in leadership and support capacity. Key staff members should be trained in Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders, No. 13-33640. A program guide, "Conducting a Webelos-Ree," is available from local councils. -------------------- The question is what does separate mean? Does the separation include time and space, or just different program activities. Our council allows Troops to invite Webelos Dens to camp overnight with them at our District Camporees. The Camporees are set up so that Webelos have their own Webelos-only activities and program. The only shared activities are age appropriate, i.e., openging/closing ceremonies, the campfire, and religious service. Additionally, Webelos leadership must comply with Webelos guidelines. For meals our troop has the Webelos eat with the adults and we usually have some meals they can help with. We essentially have a co-located Camporee/Webelosree.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

acco40 said... "In my neck of the woods, we (Scout units) may use the public schools like anyone else. The going rate is $25/hr for a classroom, $200/hr for gymnasium or cafeteria." I'd be contacting my local legislator and finding out if the school can charge me rent for something my taxes paid for.

All of the awards that Cub Scouts may earn are listed in their handbooks. If it's not in their handbook, it's not an award they can earn. So says, this FAQ on the National web site... http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faq/awards.html For the complete list of Cub Scout awards... http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/awards/youth/index.html There. Now there should be no more threads about Cub Scout awards. ;-)

Buy some of the "Freezing Weather" patches from the scoutstuff.org web site and give those out. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/05NDC/images/08755.jpg It's an extraneous council award such at this that does not impact advancement. Not an activity or merit badge or rank requirement. So IMHO, I think your unit should be able tailor awards such as this to meet the needs of your unit program. It's the quality of your program that promotes interest, education, and advancement.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

In the GSLAC there are always two classes per summer. They put together top-notch classes but you'll have to wait until next year to take them. The first meets the weekends before and after Memorial Day and the second meets the weekends before and after Labor Day. Suggest you add a link to http://www.stlbsa.org/Training/Wood+Badge/ in your Favorites folder and monitor it for updates. If I recall correctly, the Memorial Day course will fill up before January.

Scoutmaster Ron said, "most important they need to be trained." Yep that's very important but ASM59 indicated that outside of himself and one other leader, there is a lack of commitment among the adults. He didn't say there was a training issue. However, I think we'd all agree that if commitment is a problem, a lack of training is usually a problem too.

gwd-scouter asked, "How does requiring his father to come along prohibit the Scout from achieving the next level in Scouting? Or, any level?" Maybe someone already answered this, but it seems to me that if the father is unavailable, then the boy can't go on the outing. If the boy can't go to an outing, he can't earn the advancement requirements that are completed at the outing (especially summer camp). Boys can't advance if they can't camp.

Sounds like the Troop has already died and doesn't really know it. My son and I crossed over to a Troop last February and I am fortunate to say that it has a nice number of active adults sharing leadership and an excellent Scoutmaster who really knows what it takes to make the program a success--everything from being a great recruiter, program/budget planner, boy leadership facilitator, and trainer. I'm the newest leader in the Troop and he's really showing what it takes to be a successful unit. However, when I was in our feeder Pack, I was pretty much doing everything myself because the rest of the adult leadership was somewhat apathetic towards scouting and minimally trained. What I have learned is that if you can not motivate adults to serve actively in their son's program in two or three months, if you provide them ample lead time to make room on their busy skeds to take training and they don't, if they have higher priorities such as baseball or soccer for their free time, then they will never activly help, they will never take training, and scouting will always be a lower priority. If I ever find myself in a similar situation as I was in the Pack (or in a situation similar ASM59), I will work for one year to turn things around. My theory is if it can't fixed it between recharters, it's best to move to another unit where I can direct my efforts towards the boys rather than the parents. If you don't have first time success in motivating a parent, you probably never will. If I was in ASM59's unit, I'd be devoting my time to find a unit with more committed adult leadership and better program that I can really contribute to. The current adults will have their boys age out in the next three years and I'm really worried about the future of our Troop because I see a vacuum in leadership coming.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

This thread is perfect proof of the mission statement and vision... you're thinking about it aren't you? Trying ot figure out how it applies to the program? Performing a little self-evaluation. Would you be thinking about these things if it didn't exist?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

SR540Beaver... don't get me started on the non-value of the Unit Commissioner. My Pack's commissioner is an empty uniform that only signed off on rechartering paperwork and showed up for two B&G banquets my entire five year tenure in the unit. I fully expect it to fold before the year is out because of a lack of recruiting and leadership. If only UCs did their job and provided guidance and advice, including training recommendations, a lot of unit training issues could be resolved.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

The reason Cub Scouts has more (or a greater percentage) of untrained leaders is easier to identify than for Boy Scouts... Many adults who volunteer to be adult leaders at the Cub Scout level are new to scouting, are only involved because their boy is involved, and have not vested into the program yet. They're waiting to see if Johnny really likes it before they decide to get trained--they don't want to take time for something they may not need. However, by not getting trained, the quality of their program suffers, and Johnny ends up not liking it. He drops out and they drop out. With this kind of attitude in many Cub Scout units, I think the more persistent leaders and their boys move on to Boy Scouts.

eagle-pete makes an very important point. Most leaders are volunteers. We shouldn't be forcing them to do things they don't want. That's the solution for when you have too many volunteers. If we want volunteers to take training so they can learn to fulfill the role and responsibilities of their position well, we need to make them want to take the training. This is why my earlier post said basic training should include lessons on how to motivate people. Getting volunteers to do things is all about motiviation. Mastery of this skill not only will help leaders build an effective leadership team, but will help them in working with the boys so the boys can have an enjoyable and satisfying program. Basic training should also include opportunities to learn how to effectively recruit and build a team. These skills are too basic and fundamental to the success of units to wait until a Pow Wow or Wood Badge course to introduce them. Almost all units have that one gung ho leader who wants to take basic training. What that leader needs is the skills to convince the other leaders to take the training too. If this skills are effective, we could see an exponential growth in trained leadership. I think CNYScouter's council is doomed.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Given that my council publishes training dates for all districts up to a year in advance and leaders have training opportunities on almost a monthly basis... there's no excuse in my council for not being able to fit it into their personal and business lives.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

ASM59 makes a very good point... The sooner a leader gets trained for their new position, the greater the learning opportunity and value of the training. Fortunately, he had a unit trainer to provide OJT. Unfortunately, not all units always have smooth transitions in leadership. I found my SM/SA class and outdoor trainging very useful, but I took it a month after moving from my son's pack to his new troop. This doesn't mean that the SM doesn't provide me with OJT. It just means that he could devote more time to running the program rather than training a leader while I was a newbie.

Beavah... I'm not sure how you're differentiating between a training class and a learning opportunity. What have you seen wrong with training classes such that fail to provide a learning opportunity? All... In my limited experience, my district and council do a pretty good job providing learning opportunities in their training classes. They provide multiple sessions at various times during the year. This year two sessions of basic training for cub and boy scout leaders in the fall and two sessions in the spring--some during the week, some during the weekend. With the other districts in our Council, you can take basic training almost monthly. Council also provides a couple opportunities during the year for both cub and boy scout leader outdoor training. Content of the classes is pretty good. You get the basics needed to understand how to get started and most importanly, you meet the training staff and they become a resource for getting more help when you need it. My only gripe with my District's training is that roundtables turned into a bit of an announcement fest instead of providing program ideas for the upcoming month. The biggest problem I've experienced was getting leaders in my unit to take advantage of the learning opportunity the training provided and take the darn classes. I'd tell them of all of the benefits of training and I'd get the same old exucses, "I'm too busy" or "I forgot" or "I'm out of town that night/weekend." I'd suggest planning ahead more and registering for a class a couple months in advance or I'd call/email them a month and two weeks and one week and a couple of days before the class with a reminder with no joy. The truth is they just didn't want to go. I don't think units need 100% trained leadership but like GernBlansten said, units need leaders in key positions trained. I think the units can figure out what those positions are. In addition to GB's list, I'd include the CC for the troop. For packs, it'd be the CC, CM, CAs, and all DLs (DLs are the most important job in cub scouting IMO--no matter how good a job the CM does with the pack progra, a bad DL can still kill the pack while a good den program can save a pack with a weak pack program). I don't think it's as critical that committee members be trained other that YPT, it'd be nice, but not critical. A treasurer can still balance a checkbook and support his unit efficiently without taking MC training. I don't think fines or requiring certain positions be trained in order to recharter is the answer. Perhaps basic training should provide the opportunity for leaders to learn skills to motivate other leaders to take training too. Being able to motivate people is a very important skill for leaders--it's how you get volunteers and boys to want to do something. We need some carrots here and I'm not sure what else can be done. If we want a stick, maybe national should not provide the BSA liability insurance for leaders who don't get trainined.(This message has been edited by MarkS)