MarkS

Your Webelos Leader Guide is your primary resource for everything from your annual Webelos den program plan right down to an itinerary for each den meeting. Completing Activity badge requirements makes up the bulk of the itinerary as it should but it also includes tie-ins for pack meetings. You should use Program Helps as a theme reference for these tie-ins. Be creative, tie some requirements of the activity badge to the monthly theme for the pack. For example, when I was a WDL, I had my den do a puppet show based on the theme at a pack meeting to fulfill a requirement for the Showman badge. I strongly encourage any WDL to understand the major differences between Cub and Boy Scouts, the patrol method used in boy scouts, and the requirements of the Scout, Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class ranks. The primary job of the WDL is to prepare Webelos for Boy Scouts. Your emphasis should be on this, but it doesn't preclude your den from participating in pack meetings. In fact, proper preparation for Boy Scouts will require participation at pack meetings.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

After skimming through this thread, I saw a lot of great ideas for saving a pack, but didn't see any opinions whether DenZero's pack is worth saving. Personally, I don't think it is worth saving. The situation I see based on the description herein is that the local community has one very strong pack and seven boys in another just trying to muddle through with a monthly combined pack/den meeting. This is not much of a program and recruiting last fall was a bust as a result. Seems to me that it'd be best to pull up tent stakes and transfer to the other unit and make your contribution there. Additionally, I don't see how you can charter the struggling unit anyway. It's mentioned that they have Tiger, Cub Scout, and Webelos aged boys. A charter requires a registered den leader at each age level they have scouts, a Cubmaster, two Committee Members (or one Committee Member and a Pack Trainer), and a Committee Chair... and each of these positions must be filled by a different person. That's seven adults needed to charter the unit (I am assuming they have a Chartered Org Rep--it doesn't matter if that rep fills one of the other positions). Yet DenZero says they have two official leaders and a total of 4-5 adults willing to help out. I expect their current charter has some positions filled by empty uniforms.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I've seen pix on the Internet of actor Ethan Embry (White Squall, That Thing You Do) wearing a BSA field uniform shirt with both religious and Eagle knots. Check out www.imdb.com for the pix but I don't know if it is authentic.

brianbug said, "Is this new since 1998? Are kids that much more busy post 1998 than pre 1998 that it would influence numbers, some as much as 10.9% drop in a single year? Is this a valid contributor to a point that kids activities have increased magically post 1998 vs pre 1998 to have that huge of an new, extra affect it did not have before?" We need to keep in mind that the data was gleaned from the annual reports posted on the National web site, that they only go back to 1997 and the only increase in youth membership shown is from 1997 to 1998. We don't know what the trend was before that. Was that the end of a strong long-running upward trend, an unusual short-run upward trend, the end of a flat level of membership, or a glitch? The data showed that in the last eight years there's been a 16% decline in cub and boy scouts. You can't just crunch these numbers and identify a root cause. I think there have been a number of plausible explanations posted in this thread. It wouldn't surprise if a study of these explanations indicated there is no root cause and that the source of the decline has several contributors. With all due respect though, the only explanation I do not find plausible is that patrol flags and scout uniforms are "dorky."

local1400 and Crew21_Adv, From my perspective it has been very hard to get adults interested in participating in the program to the number needed to "spread the fun around." Essentailly, what I've found talking to some who have dropped out, they'd rather spend the $600 on a short term commitment, than be vested in something for the long haul. brianbuf, As you can see from the varying pespectives and experiences exhibited for you by myself, local1400, and Crew21_Adv, albiet limited within the confines of this thread, you have an example of what SR540Beaver is talking about. Perhaps some of the national issues keep some parents from signing up their boys, but retention is pretty much all local, all unit, quality of program.

I think the greatest contributor to the decline in membership in scouting is an increase in competition from other youth programs. The focus of the competition is not for based on the cost but the time required to effectively implement participation. The time required is not the boys time, but the parents' instead. Think about the effort required from parents to put together a quality soccer, baseball, or football team compared to the effort required for a quality scout program at the unit level. A quality scout program requires a more robust and diverse set of experiences and opportunities for the participants. This makes it a greater challenge for parents to plan and execute effectively even though we have roughly half the boys to do most of it for themselves. Think about it this way... We spend a lot of time in the forums here talking about how the available training can help adult leaders put together the best program possible. We have youth protection training, basic training, Pow Wows, University of Scouting, Wood Badge, specialized skills training like pressurized fuels, first aid, rock climbing and rappelling, life guard, et al. How much training has your son's soccer coach needed to put together the best team possible? All I had to do was attend a one hour seminar to get my coaching license. I think the contrast is startling. From my point of view, it takes less effort to make something like soccer fun than it does to make scouting fun. Or maybe I was a better soccer coach than scout leader and didn't know it. I think pointing to uniforms and nechkerchiefs as the primary source of the problem as extremely narrowly focused. Sure they can be updated and that's happening with the new Switchback pants and activity shirts. The nechkerchief is optional. The boys can vote not to have a unit neckerchief so I don't see why that would be an issue. I think the effort expended continuing to look here for the problem misses the big picture and is counterproductive towards your stated goals. On the other hand, I think there are quite a number of opportunities to provide new areas of study for Merit Badges. However, I believe their contribution to the decline is negligible. So why do we go to the extra effort for scouting compared to the other programs? It's the rewards baby! We want boys to be a Gerald Ford or Neil Armstrong or Sanford Bishop, not a Maurice Clarett.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

What the heck is a Patrol Adult Advisor and why would every patrol need one? I didn't recall and couldn't find any reference to the position in either of my Scoutmaster or Troop Committee training materials, handbooks, or guides. It doesn't even show up in the org charts nor did I find a position patch. Our troop has an Asst. Scoutmaster for New Patrols who works with the Troop Guide for the new Patrol and advises Den Chiefs.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Isn't the Queens Scout Award a Girl Scout award? You shouldn't be able to count that one... Vote disqualified. ;-)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

t158sm said, "Nothing says that the first attempt at the fitness requirements cannot be repeated." Right, to streamline things and make the process work a little faster for the scout though, I would consider it acceptable to count the last attempt as a new first attempt if the boy failed to show improvement or even regressed. Have the boy try every month until he does better than the month before. He only has to achieve it one time.

I'm not certain that the work done two years ago should even be counted. The improvement should be shown after 30 days. My son never completed a whole pull-up when he advanced to Tenderfoot. His SPL counted fractions of a pullup. The first time he pulled himself up a quarter of the way and 30 days later about half. Suggest your boy ask that they start over from scratch on pull-ups (and only pull-ups if that's all that's left) and do it the same way 30 days later. A gray area I see in the requirement is that the boy is supposed to show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days. It doesn't say whether the activities are to be counted individually or collectively (e.g., it doesn't say show improvement in each of the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days). If I were a Scoutmaster and advising my SPL on how to accept completion on this requirement, I'd suggest that if a boy could demonstrate that he effectively practiced for 30 days, improved on some and didn't regress on any, and made his best effort in each attempt, to use his best judgement rather than the absolute numbers on whether or not the boy met the requirement.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

The reason to take Wood Badge is to learn and/or improve upon the leadership skills that will help us better serve the boys at whatever level we contribute to the BSA (unit, district, council or national). One of these skills is to lead by example. If you contribute at the unit level and developing leadership skills in the boys you serve is an important part of the contribution you want to make, have your beading ceremony at your COH and use it as a platform to promote NYLT. If you contribute at the district level, have your beading ceremony at your roundtable and use it as a platform to promote the training to unit leaders. Getting and wearing your beads is not about showing off. It's about setting an example.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

John-in-KC wrote, "In both a Troop and a Crew, the authority of the youth leadership to design, coordinate, and implement the program is a delegated authority per the Charter Agreement (that clause about executing the Scouting Program...). That authority comes with responsibility" What about the axiom, "You can delegate authority but you can not delegate responsibility?"

Here's a link to a photo of the float. http://www.unionleader.com/uploads/media-items/2006/december/d04a1paradef.jpg I don't see anything stationary to hold onto or anything to prevent those riding on the float from dangling their feet over the edge.

The annual reports published on the BSA web site show that Cub Scout membership has declined from 2.1M in 1997 to 1.7M in 2005 while Boy Scout memberhip has declined from 1M in 1997 to 943k in 2005. It seems to me that the whole premise of this thread is that the BSA doesn't understand why it is experiencing a decline in memberhip or is doing anything about it. The first issue has not been established but in 2006, the BSA launched the first year of a new National Strategic Plan, titled "2010: When Tradition Meets Tomorrow." This plan is supposed to support an organizational vision to "prepare every youth in America to become responsible, participating citizens and leaders who are guided by the Scout Oath and Law." To recruit quality leadership, adequately fund programs, invite youth from all backgrounds to join, and offer a fun and exciting program, and to help ordinary young people become extraordinary adults. It seems to me that the BSA has been working on a plan for the future. Can anyone substantiate the claim that the BSA doesn't understand why membership is declining?

Our council uses FoS to pay for local programs and activities, scholarships, uniforms and fees for special needs youths, service centers/scout shops, insurance, professional staff, camping facilities available and properties maintenance, to subsidize the cost of summer camp and high-adventure events, advancement programs, hiking-trails maintenance, and leadership training including development, literature, and distribution. Our council doesn't require units to meet a donation goal but they do assertively promote FoS in each unit. There is no way the "Fair Share" program described herein teaches financial responsibility to the Scouts. They are too far removed from the benefits it might produce for their unit. I don't buy the story that this program is intended to teach the boys responsibility. It sounds like your council is trying to delegate the work necessary to have a successful fundraising campaign from their professionals to unit leaders. Sure they can delegate the authority do the work necessary to raise the money their council needs, but they can't delegate the responsibility. It's their job, not the boys. Boys need to see direct impact as a result of their fundraising efforts to recognize the benefit. Perhaps the older boys recognize the fact that something like "Fair Share" benefits summer camp, but not the younger boys and certainly not the cub aged boys. Plus, I'm sure units would rather have the $700 in cash than in a scout shop account. Our unit raises money for itself through BBQ fundraisers, popcorn sales, and dues collection. Dues are collected every meeting. In return the troop pays entirely for registration fees (boys and adults) and Boy's Life, program activities, monthly outings (except food expenses) and provides a significant discount on summer camp and high-adventure activities. With our method, the boys work, they raise the money, they use the money. With "Fair Share" the boys' parents write a check, give it to the unit, and the boys get a uniform at the scout shop wondering why they just don't pay for it at the shop. "Fair Share" looks like a bad idea.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

"With that kind of sarcasm, maybe he's afraid to visit your unit more often. Maybe your free food isn't very good?" Or maybe, just maybe, he didn't fulfill his role and responsibility as a UC. When I was with my Pack, I may not have been the CM, but I was pretty much a one-man show trying to keep the program going and other leaders involved. I called and emailed our UC very frequently (at least monthly, sometimes multiple times a month) for help and invited him to committee and pack meetings. Told him we needed help involving new leadership when I left. This went on for a year. He did nothing. After joining the troop, I found out the SM had been trying to get him to help the pack a year before I started asking for help. I doubt the pack will have enough leadership to recharter in February.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Does your council have an annual Cub Scout leader Pow Wow event? If so, check and see if they have some classes on selecting leaders and leadership transition. You might want to take them. If you've missed your event, you should be able to find out who taught them and get copies of their handouts.

WARNING: The amount of sarcasm in this message has been deemed dangerous to your health by the Surgeon General... From my experience, you only see Unit Commissioners once or twice a year. For packs, once when they come for the free food at your B&G banquet and once when they hand you your recharter packet. For troops, only when they hand you your recharter packet. Since the differences are so vast, perhaps they should limit themselves to just one program.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

GN said, ...If you had leaders with limited outdoor knowledge and experience, such a program might motivate them to educate themselves. Also, seeing leaders working to improve themselves could motivate kids... You mean earning that "Trained" strip isn't enough motivation? Frankly, I found the fact that I might have to employ and/or teach a skill as sufficient motivation to learn it. Unfortunately, I've had to work with adults whom you couldn't motivate to leave a burning building.

GN said, ...If you had leaders with limited outdoor knowledge and experience, such a program might motivate them to educate themselves. Also, seeing leaders working to improve themselves could motivate kids... You mean earning that "Trained" strip isn't enough motivation? Frankly, I found the fact that I might have to employ and/or teach a skill as sufficient motivation to learn it. Unfortunately, I've had to work with adults whom you couldn't motivate to leave a burning building.

Good thread... got me to thinking. When I was a Webelos Leader, the boys always said I had great den meetings for them--better than the pack meeting. MarkS puffs out chest. Since joining the troop I've noticed that the meetings aren't run as well as I feel I could do it (it was hard to let go of the reigns). It's gotten to the point that boys are having problems maintining proper discipline and behavior during the meeting. A sign of boredom. I figured it's part of the learning process but this thread got me thinking that it doesn't have to be. As Beavah said we have to teach them how to run an effective meeting. In my case what was I doing in Webelos that the boy leaders in the Troop might not be doing? I found a simple answer. Planning. I spent two or three hours planning what I would do for each den meeting, plus additional time putting together the resources needed for the meeting, and executing the meeting. As needed I delegated to and involved parents in putting together the resources needed for the meeting, and executing the meeting. I never delegating the planning though. Typically about four or more hours per meeting planning, putting it together, running errands, communicating, etc. That's each week, every week I held a meeting. Sixteen hours per month. Our PLC plans all the weekly troop meetings for a month at their one and a half hour monthly PLC meeting. There's not a lot of time to really flesh out the details of each troop meeting. We adults need to do a better job of teaching the boys how to plan a meeting. The best way to do this is to have the boys come to the PLC with plans in hand so we can go over them. I'm going to suggest to the SM and SPL that the PLC come to their monthly meeting with detailed plans for their troop meetings that month so instead of planning them, we're reviewing them. Another thought is for the adults to plan one meeting a year just to give the boys an example of what they can do. Show them the resources we used. Where we got them. How we thought of them, etc. Maybe do this when a boy is elected SPL for the first time.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Sometimes it's better to devote your time on a quality program than trying to save a dying one. You may want to consider transferring your entire membership to a more vital Troop. Or at the very least, propose such a thing to your Unit Commissioner and your adult leaders. Their reaction should tell you whether or not you will have allies to help you save your unit.

Why was the SM explaining the rules? The SPL leads Troop meetings, not the SM. Hopefully, the leaders in your new unit will have a better understanding of the program.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Just wanted to clarify my comment "The last resort is to involve their parents more..." By that I strictly mean in terms of correcting the unacceptable behavior. We want the boys to want to behave before we do that. I'm not thinking in terms of limiting their ability to provide adult leadership.

We have discipline problems. They are compounded by the fact that we have several scouts that are special needs (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers, etc). Reason and reminders do not work in mitigating the problem. Typical issues include not respecting other scouts and their property (e.g., taking and hiding of handbooks, rabbit ears over the head instead of the scout salute), wondering off from the group, excessive talking while trying to conduct activities (e.g., being very disruptive while the rules of the game are being explained), kicking butts (e.g., playfully, but still kicking), violations of personal space (e.g., touching, tugging, pushing), racial language (e.g., calling other boys crackers). These wouldn't be an issue if it was one or two scouts doing it once or twice during a meeting, but this is a chronic, persistent problem and involves a significant portion of the troop. About 6 of 18 boys. I understand the best solution is more engaging, faster passed meetings and activities. The trick is to figure out what the boys find more engaging. That involves talking to them and some trial and error. The last resort is to involve their parents more (some of the parents of the boys most responsible for the problems help monitor their behavior during the activities, other parents do the drop and run). This can range from simply informing the parent of the undesired behavior and ask for them to deal with it, to having the parents stay at meetings to discipline their boy, and if they cant help correct the behavior, remove the boys from the Troop. We dont really want to do this. Its easier for a parent to deal with his own child because you have punishment or denial of privileges as recourse. The SM and ASMs (I am an ASM) discussed this at length during the most recent post Troop meeting PLC. Our first proactive measure was to provide the PLC with ideas on how to make the meetings more engaging. Does anyone have additional ideas? I really dont believe this can be solved with any single solution. Heck, unless parents have some sort of discipline regimen at home, it may be unsolvable.(This message has been edited by MarkS)