MarkS

Eagle92, You're forgetting the important prequisites: In order to earn your first bead, you have to complete the WB six day course. In order to earn your second bead, you have complete your ticket. In order to earn your third bead, you have to deliver the promise and train new leaders (I don't think it matters if they're adult or youth). In order to earn your fourth bead, you have to be a course director. Adults can't take the NYLT course. Youth can't take the WB course. At my NYLT course, a Wood Badger completed his ticket (serving on NYTL staff was his last ticket item) and had his beading ceremony. Five minutes later, he got his third bead for serving on NYLT staff. How weird is that? This isn't about recognition. It's about encouraging more WB trained leaders to deliver the promise (because we all know we learn the most about a topic by teaching it) and inspiring more adults to take the WB course. I mean how hard can it be? The adults serving NYLT aren't going to be very hard to convince about the benefits of taking WB. They're already living the dream, they just haven't taken the class. I think the hard part is finding an adult NYLT staffer that hasn't taken the course. For my NYLT course, there were about 20 adult staffers. Only myself and that one other staffer earned our third bead during the course, the CD earned his fourth bead, and only one adult had not taken WB but he was planning on it by the end of the week. No one else earned a third bead because everyone else already had them. Mark

Eagle92, The intent is to encourage Wood Badge trained adults to serve on NYLT staff and to encourage NYLT adult staff who have not taken Wood Badge to do so. Any adult can earn two, three or four beads with the appropriate training and service. To say that this program favors certain adult leaders over others is inaccurate. The prerequisite for those third and fourth beads is the same for and can be earned by every WB and NYLT staffer. In our council, every adult and youth NYTL staffer earn a staff pin for their NYLT shields. Is that nationally recognized or not? I don't know. If not, maybe it ought to be. If it is, is your problem really then that everyone isn't earning exactly the same recognition? Should they be? I don't think it's necessary nor detrimental to the program. I was a college student. Being a college student in and of itself is not a road block to taking Wood Badge. The financial and time contraints and solutions exist for everyone. It's all about learning and teaching leadership skils. If this program fulfills its intent, more adults and youth are reached and they learn additional skills to help serve their units. One thing our council did this past summer is have some experienced NYLT youth staffers teach some elements at our Wood Badge courses. This was received very favorabily by the Wood Badge participants. The intent was that those participants would take that experience back to their home units and encouraged their youth to take NYLT. No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. Mark

I took Wood Badge, completed my ticket, and got a couple beads for it. I've taken those lessons learned and used them to serve the youth in my son's unit for the last three plus, going on four years now. This summer I used them to serve the youth in my council by working on the adult staff of an NYLT course. I got a third bead for doing that. I didn't know that was going to happen when I volunteered. I volunteered because I was asked to take over as Scoutmaster of the unit I serve and wanted to know what the course was like so I could better determine if a boy was ready to take it. The course reinforced my Wood Badge training and gave me another opportunity to deliver its promise to the youth, it improved my ability to associate and work with youth, it gave me a great example of how a model troop can be achieved through the youth leadership, it gave me a better picture of what my unit is doing right and not so right. Frankly, I can't think of a better way to put the lessons I learned at Wood Badge to practice than to pass them on to the youth. No. I don't think NYLT dilutes the meaning of the Wood Badge beads. Nope. Not at all.

There's always another unit. Let your feet to the talking and head for greener grass. Scouting is supposed to be an enjoyable activity for the boys and adult leaders alike. Find a unit that has its act together and your sone likes and go for it.

Yeah... there's a lot of useful stuff in the older handbooks... a lot of outdated stuff too. I think it's a good idea to re-evaluate things every now and then and modernize. All change comes with pros and cons and not everyone will agree on which is which. However, if you don't re-evaluate things, scouting or otherwise, you might find the world passed you by while you were drving your horse and buggy to work. ;-)

I think it's safe to say that if the boys in a troop are good friends, they're going to do things together outside of the troop. Some of which they can't do in the troop because of BSA polcies. As long as the unit is not involved in any way, I don't understand how the BSA could get sued over this if someone gets hurt.

I'm only sure about what my council camping dept. head told me. We communicated via email which wasn't ideal for the exchange of information and references we were discussing but he spent a great deal of time making sure he understood my question. In my council, patrol outings without adult leadership do not seem to be extremely popular. Even though he is the camping dept. head and certainly knows his stuff, I got a strong impression that no unit had ever asked him my question before. If someone has a POC within National, maybe they can confirm. Should probably do that before writing letters of complaint.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

In my coucnil, reservations are required in order to have permission to be on council property--even if you're requesting a no cost resource like a campsite for a unit overnight. They want to know who's there and I find nothing wrong with that. However, considering myself to be a conscientious fellow, I called my council camping dept. about how a requirement for two-deep leadership at all activities in the rules and regs on the back of the reservation applies to patrol outings without adult leadership. Well, first I had to convince them that I wasn't talking about youth protection and instead about how patrols are supposed to be able to go on outings without adult leadership per the SM handbook, PL handbook, and G2SS (section on Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings, item 1). Eventually, they contacted National for clarification and confirmed my understanding of the National policy but they also told me they found out that National is going to change its policy and no longer permit patrol outings without adult leadership. I don't know what the time-table is but I was told the above documents are already being updated. BTW... The final decision from my council was that even until the National policy change takes place, their policy is that patrols that want to conduct an outing on council property must have two-deep adult leadership or they won't approve the reservation. I figured that a council owned property lent itself to being a more secure environment for patrol activities without adult leadership than, say, a state or county park.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Beavah said, "Each thing in its place, in proper measure. We start with da scoutcraft skills primarily (T-2-1) and then incorporate more management and leadership skills as the boys need those." A youth has to be first class and have attended two summer camps before taking NYLT. So there's an expectation of a certain level of proficiency in scoutscarft skills before attending the course. As an example, part of the NYLT curriculum is about understanding how to teach and share these skills to a patrol based on the ability to recognize a patrol's proficiency level. I agree that it takes a balance of proficiency in scoutscraft skills, management, and leadership for an SPL, PL, and other youth leaders to maximize their potential for success. It's not surprising that BSA offers training in all three for both adults leaders who need to train the youth leaders and for youth leaders to supplement the training they've received in their unit... Adults have basic training for their position, outdoor skills training, and Woodbadge. Youth have their T-2-1 programs at summmer camp (with fancy names like Eagle Bound or Voyageur), TLT, and NYLT. All have OJT opportunities created by their unit's outdoor and advancement programs, unit meetings, et al. It's the package that makes the difference, not just one course. I do not agree with the premise of this thread that one needs to choose between Management Style vs. Scoutcraft Style. I choose both.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

If the VP is hiking out of a base camp, they and the necessary number of leaders could leave for the hike about 30 minutes before the other adults wake up. Or the boys could hike at a pace that's uncomfortable for the adults to keep up. They could practice the motto... If you want to stay young, work with the young. If you want to die young, try to keep up with them. Heck... they could make that their patrol cheer. I heard thru my council that National is going to change their policy and prohibit patrols from conducting outings without adult supervision. Times are a changing.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

There are three communication paths. The first is from the SM to the SPL to the PLs to the youth members. The second is between the SM and the CC. The third from the CC to the committe members and parents. Usually, the communication between the SM, CC, and committee members is pretty good no matter what method is used. Usually, announcements in the troop meeting are the best way to get a message to the boys--if they show up. However, you can engrave a message in a granite tablet, throw it through the parents' living room window and it will miraculously land in a black hole under the coffee table never to be heard from again.

Yeah... I looked into the possibility of putting the bug in the ear of our older patrol that, with approval, they could go on outings without adult supervision. I called our council to ask a question about some language on their short-term camping reservation paperwork indicating that at least two adults are required for all activities on council property--including patrol outings. I pressed the issue and they contacted National. Apparently, they found out that National is making a policy change to eliminate adult-free patrol outings. Look for changes in the Scoutmaster Handbook, Patrol Leader Handbook, G2SS, and other literature in the near future. Well, that's what I was told anyway. So if you're an advocate of patrols going on outings without adult supervision, take advantage of it now. Sounds like this privilege is going away.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I took 21st Century Wood Badge in 2005. While emb021 said the purpose is to learn leadership skills that can be applied to your program, I would add more specifically that the purpose is to pass the leadership skills you learn to the youth you serve. I'm serving on NYLT staff for the first time this summer and have been in training for that. Can't wait to see how things turn out but the experience so far is really illustrating to me what the purpose of Wood Badge really is. (This message has been edited by MarkS)

CQ CQ CQ... Radio di-di-di-dah-di-dah(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Extra $1? Try $2 extra from $2.49 to $4.49... about a 80% markup. BSA supply doesn't understand the 9th point of the Scout Law I think.

If the G2SS where just a guide, there would be on print in BOLD typeface. It's mostly a guide but does state some policies. That said, it doesn't appear to state any policies regarding pioneering, only guidelines (as far as I found).

What about a Craftsman Sit/Stand/Tote Truck? This sit, stand and tote consists of a large bottom tub for bulk storage and one large tote for additional storage of parts boxes and smaller hand or power tools. It also incorporates a unique hand truck design with a retractable pull handle assembly (that extends to 36 in. high) for easy maneuvering. Includes two 5 in. transport wheels, comfort-grip top handle and two side latches that can be locked with a padlock (not included) for added security. 5,081 total cu. in. of storage. 25 x 17.5 x 18 in. 16.2 lbs. I know mine worked great for crafts storage (supplies, consumables, tools, glue guns, etc.) when I was a den leader in cubs. Our troop uses wooden patrol boxes so I never considered using it in such an application before. IMO, this would be a very good "little bear" resistant container. I'm just not sure if it has enough volume. The main consideration I think would be is how much room would be have left after stocking it with your largest pieces of patrol gear. For us, it would be the equivalent of the Trail Chef Aluminum Cook Kit (Scoutstuff item # 01011) and Chef's Tool Kit (Scoutstuff item # 01153). I think that's the key to figuring out your "patrol box needs." First determine what equipment a patrol needs at every campout and provide suitable storage for it. The tote truck is $60. How much does a patrol box cost?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

IMHO Tom Brady does not exlempify the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law and therefore should not be on the cover of BL. However, if he's available in my FFB draft this weekend, I'll snatch him up in a heartbeat and hope is foot is okay later. (This message has been edited by MarkS)

The GSS on scouting.org still says, "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized." Additionally, this language is present in the health and safety alert about prohibiting paintball. See http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Paintball.aspx. I'd say they need to update their web site if they hadn't just done that in the last few months since this thread was started. I wonder what happened. Maybe when they pair firearm with laser, they're talking about a high-energy ray gun. I don't think of the toy pistols used in laser tag as a firearm.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

I don't know. I think I've seen as many of these kinds of posts because someone's expectations are not being met as much as because the program was not followed. Disputes can still happen when a unit follows the program but doesn't meet someone's expectations. Disputes can still happen becuase someone's lack of knowledge of the program is producing unrealistic expectations. Sometimes people in a group have trouble working together. You don't need the scouting program for this to happen.

Issues like this prompted me to pick up a copy of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Pamphlet, BSA item #33088. In looking it over, it really doesn't provide a lot of guidance for something like this. Nothing on how a Scoutmaster may supersede the opinion of a merit badge counselor. It did say that a merit badge once earned can never be taken away. I'm not sure when "earned" comes into place though but if there is a question as to whether a boy actually did the work required for a badge, it will be best to answer this question as early as possible in the approval process. If a Scoutmaster waits too long, he won't have the information necessary to back up a decision to deny sending in the blue card to council for approval. At the time, it's probably best to do the things folks here recommended to prevent it from happening again.

Our OA Chapter puts together two camporees and a klondike for our District each program year. Camp staff and activities are primarily boy led by OA members. OA advisors support the efforts of the boys. Webelos dens are invited to camp with a host troop at the camporees. However, the scouts and Webelos attend different activities during the day. The only activity they do together away from unit camp sites is attend a campfire.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

All we know is that an incident happend at one summer camp which was not observed and the response of the leadership in this case doesn't seem to be appropriate... It was stated that the SM doesn't really like the boy in question but until now any behavior problems were minor. So far, I'm not reading anything IMO that would warrant a purge of adult leadership at recharter. What I am seeing is that they are not communicating very well. They're writing letters and sending emails in regards to something that should be discussed in a face-to-face with all the parties involved. My recommendation is to have a talk and eliminate the mountain of correspondence that's being created. You'll determine more quickly if you have a problem, what it is, and how to fix it this way. It may be the 21st century but we still haven't developed a communication technology that's as effecient as a face-to-face conversation with a reat-time dialog and exchange of ideas.

I believe a three pronged approach is necessary to best promote proper behavior and discipline. Our unit summarized BSA policy for our members as follows: 1. Scouts shall conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law at all times. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the scouting program. 2. All adult leaders shall be responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. However, unless there is an imminent safety issue or a risk of injury, adult leaders should allow youth leaders to attempt to resolve the situation before interceding (i.e., don't yell stop that, talk privately to the SPL or PL and have him stop it). 3. The Scoutmaster shall be responsible for notifying parents about inappropriate behavior and providing disciplinary action. Examples of disciplinary action include withholding rank advancement (i.e., scout spirit, Scoutmaster Conference), parental notification, and temporary exclusion from troop activities (e.g., sending a misbehaving boy home from a campout). The Troop Committee shall review repetitive or serious incidents of inappropriate behavior in consultation with the parents of the boy to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the boys membership in the unit. Disciplinary action shall comply with the GSS and youth protection guidelines. These are documented in a small handbook we provide parents when their son joins our unit. If the behavior wasn't observed and interceded upon, I don't think the events of a single day constitute a repetitive incident.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

A number of good suggestions were posted. Like Beavah, I like Lisa Bob's solution (needs to be a youth leadership decision though). However, I don't think the boy should be forced to do the demonstration unless you have a high degree of confidence that he cheated. The only way you can figure that out is to talk to the boy and talk to his accusers, and try to figure out who you believe. What I'm mostly concerned about is how the boy was able to get out of the aquatics area and into the showers. Either he never made it in the water and the physical environment of that summer camp permitted him to cheat or the camp staff is not following the Safe Swim Defense policy (i.e., buddy tags/boards/checks, etc.).(This message has been edited by MarkS)