ManyIrons

FScouter and Scoutnut, it may just be me, but the "tone" of your last posts seem to have an edge to them. The posts from jteamnmj are requests for help, but your responses seem to be challenging her on the who can earn the Whittling Chip. She wants to agree with you and needs the ammo to convince her local Scouters. If I've misinterpreted your intent, I apologize, if not then let's give the lady a break. jteamnmj, press on with contacting your council -- if your CM is still unsure. What you've been told here is correct, but you may get less flack if you have a council contact to back you up. YIS

You need a copy of the OA handbook to find the password for the Jumpstart website -- it's not the admonition. If you don't have a copy of the handbook, contact another lodge member and they will be able to help you.

jteamnmj, I don't have a current Wolf Handbook, so I'm only going by what is written in the on-line version of the Guide to Safe Scouting. In the section on knives (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss09.html#g) it says: "We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book" There is no specific discussion on the Whittling Chip. I'd recommend speaking to someone at your council office. Reference the links I provided on the "Age Appropriate Guidelines" and the G2SS and ask for their guidance.

red feather, Wow, I think I'm in your unit!! Thanks, I thought it would be better to know what you've done before throwing a solution at you. Really the only solution that BSA advocates is targeted recruting (a.k.a. "selecting leaders"). It's outlined in the Troop Committee Guide, but I found a similar guide on the National Council's website under Commissioner's Resources. Here's the link: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf We've got similar problems. Our committee's solution is to send a letter to the parents explaining the dire consequences if we don't get more adults to volunteer -- i.e., the committee will practically dissolve, placing our re-charter in jeopardy. Our committee is mostly composed of parents whose son's are either Eagle Scouts ("He's finished so I'm done") or are working on their projects ("He's almost done, so I am too"). They've all given notice that they're leaving in the next 6 - 12 months. I tried unsuccessfully (twice) to get them to use the BSA method, but they just won't do it. I've warned them that their method is highly unlikely to produce the results we need, but they're determined to proceed with their idea. And why not? It's certainly easier and after all they're leaving. Can you sense the sarcasm? Anyway, if your unit does use the "selecting" method, please let us (me) know how it went. For that matter, if anyone reading this successfully employed that method please let us all know.

An "Age Appropriate Guideline" for Scouting activities is available on the National Council website: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html There are links to a chart, and although it doesn't specifically address the Whittling Chip", it indicates that activities with pocketknives are permissable for all cub ranks -- including Tiger (with an adult partner). The Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/toc.html) section on knives even references the Wolf Handbook. I would take copies of these with me in the future, in other words next time "be loaded for bear" Yes pun-intended!!(This message has been edited by ManyIrons)

What has been done up to this point? Parent's meetings? How many committee members do you have? Are the "old guard" looking to move on? Has the committee conducted any recruitment efforts? How many assistant SMs do you have? Why are they not showing up?

Sitrep Wow. Where to start. Your question has nothing to do with the thread First, my question was valid. Your response to LauraT7 had nothing to do with her question about how adults are elected into the OA. You simply used the opportunity to throw darts at an organization you dont agree with. Youre welcome to your own opinions but they should be based on facts not accusations. I simply asked what your issues are/were. If you make public (relative in this sense) pronouncements on the quality of something you better expect others to challenge you on it. Not bitter? Your claim would carry more weight if you hadnt lashed out at me with the remarks about pop psychology, bedwetting, and spanking. You finished off with the taunt that I wouldnt believe you anyway. You can claim youre not bitter, but you are certainly hostile and that stems from something. Youll never successfully convince anyone of anything if you use hostility and derision to make your case. My statment about the OA being a popularity contest comes from my personal observation as both a scout and an ASM. If your troops OA elections were nothing more than a popularity contest, then your Scouts had no idea what they were voting for or why. Thats directly attributable to the adult leadership in your troop. The purpose, mission, and principles are all available to anyone. As an ASM why didnt you do something about it? Its easy to point out problems, anyone can do that. The world has enough problem-finders, we need problem solvers. As a Scout you pledged on your honor to help other people at all times. What did you do to help these Scouts you believe were victims of being unpopular? As a Scout you also professed to be brave having the courage to stand up for what is right even if others do not agree with you. What have you done to correct matters? If your unit isnt conducting/promoting the order properly why not take steps to remedy that instead of impugning the entire organization? To claim that the OA is not secret just b/c some info is guarded for the protection of those joining is lame. Thats not a claim, its the stated reason from OA. The fact that you dont agree with it doesnt negate it. However you do have a recourse. As stated on the OA website: If anyone has questions about this policy, or about the Order of the Arrow, they should contact their local Boy Scout Council or Lodge Adviser. How does an elite group further the aims of scouting?" Its an honor society. The only exclusivity is in the eligibility requirements all of which are within the grasp of any Scout within 1 to 2 years of joining. All of them are things to strive for, and thats what the OA does recognizes those who best exemplify the requirements. If you dont believe in rewarding Scouts who achieve this then I have no answers for you. The only requirement you seem to have an issue with is the selection by the Scouts in the unit. Youve implied that that process is flawed, but as Ive already pointed out that flaw exists in your unit and not by the design of OA. Where does that leave us? Well, youve been provided all the answers I/we can give you. If thats not enough contact your District Executive and share your concerns and observations. Ask to meet with the Lodge Advisor and attend OA meetings and/functions. Talk with the lodge leadership youth and adults. Ask them the questions youve asked here and share your concerns with them. If after all of that you still disagree with the purpose/existence of OA, so be it, but at least youll do so from a position of knowledge. LauraT7, my apologies to you. I did not mean to divert your thread. Please keep us posted on your efforts with OA.

Our set-up is similar to Troop185's. I conduct my SM conferences in one of the back corners -- whichever is open. There's no place in the room that isn't in full view of everyone so YP is never an issue. I normally hold these at the troop meeting, but I'm willing to do them anywhere (within YP rules).

sitrep: Still so bitter and no answer to my question. Let me rephrase it. What exactly is it that caused you to feel this way about the OA? You've complained that it "just a big popularity contest. What do you base that on? Youve also stated that it is a "secret society" -- it's not. BSA policy does not permit secret organizations and all portions of the Scouting program, including OA, are open to parents and leaders. Yes, there is safeguarded information, but this is done to avoid spoiling the experience for those who have not gone through it. Look at it this way, if you bought a present for someone, would you tell them what it was before they unwrapped it or would you let them enjoy the surprise.? scoutldr: You're right adults should not be selected for OA merely as an "honor". The OA Troop Representative Support Pack specifically states that adults are to be selected based on their ability "to help the Order fulfill its purposes, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and position." In addition, it must be determined that "The individual will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order." If the troop follows the policy, then there shouldn't be any socializers, although they're everywhere not just at OA meetings. acco40: Bullseye!

Yes, American women won the right to vote in 1920, but I don't think women's suffrage enters into this. The statement doesn't say that girls can't be involved in "Scouting", just that they should be separate organizations. The line that intrigued me most was "programs for boys and girls must naturally proceed along different lines". It appears to be a recognition of (or an argument for) separate programs for separate needs (and I won't profess to know what those are). Of course, I'll admit that their motivations probably were colored by chauvinism. It's just interesting to me that this issue was dealt with so early in the life of BSA.

All, I realize this is a what if . . thread, but I found the following while leafing thru a 1926 edition of the "Handbook for Scoutmasters". Since it touches on this topic, I thought others might be interested in it. Girl Scouts: Relationship of Boy Scouts to Statement of the Executive Board, Distinctly Differentiating the Two Organizations (Text of Statement as given in Scouting, July 1, 1918, page 2) There is no connection between Girl Scouts of America and the Boy Scouts of America, nor is it thought wise or in the interests of either that the same or joint leadership be extended to both, as programs for boys and girls must naturally proceed along different lines. In our opinion it is undesirable and will lead to complication for the work of the organizations to be combined in any way, and the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America would not approve of any attempt being made to do the work of the two organizations in the same office or under the same Executive or leadership, as it is believed this would be of no particular benefit to the work of the Girl Scouts and distinctly a detriment to the development of the best interests and work of the Boy Scouts of America.

sitrep, why the bitterness? What exactly is it about OA that you object to? Just for the record, OA predates 1948 (the offical adoption date into the BSA). It was originally conceived at the Treasure Island summer camp (near Philadelphia) in 1915. However; it is based on similar honor societies that were in use at private boys' camps possibly before BSA was established. There may well never have been at time when there wasn't an honor society co-existing with Scouting.

Welcome Eagle81. The best thing about this campfire is there's always room for one more. My wife would characterize me as a 24/7 Scouter too. Sounds like there's a few of us out there. . . . Hmmmm, maybe Terry should create a spousal support group forum

Tell you what SR, we've still got plenty of cake. I'll include you in that toast to Mr. West.

Well, I can tell you that the date was in fact celebrated by the ManyIrons clan -- complete with birthday cake. However to be honest, it was in honor of the 15th birthday of ManyIrons III, my youngest son and a Life Scout. I'll toast Mr. West as I enjoy my next piece of left-over birthday cake. I can't wait to tell MI III that he shares a birthdate with one of the founders of BSA.

Well then Id like to say thankyou on behalf of the group and myself and I hope we passed the audition. Sheeesh, does this mean Unc, ljnrsu, johndaingler, and I (a non-evil, non-Eagle) are back on base?

I trying ask what are the reasons others give you that 14 year olds should not be eagles? The reasons Ive heard ranged from hes too young to understand it to theres no way he really did all those requirements and everything in between. Of course, none of that matters. BSA provides the requirements to reach Eagle. If the Scout has completed them, case closed. If it's true that a scout is less mature at 14 than he is at 17, how do you justify him worthy of the eagle at 14? Whether its true or not, show me the requirement that states a 14 yr old Eagle must possess the maturity of a 17 yr old. Bear in mind, some 14 yr olds may display more maturity than some 17 yr olds. Is there a national standard of maturity were supposed to applying? When did BSA approve that? How do I justify him worthy? Hmmm, I use the BSA handbook what would you suggest I use? You see, the justification for waiting until the scout is older is that he has more time and experience to build the character expected of Eagle scouts. Makes sense to a lot of folks, so how do you explain your program? The only justification for waiting is because the Scout is moving at his own speed. What exactly is this character expected of Eagle Scouts you speak of? Sounds like an additional requirement to me, or can you provide a handbook and page reference? Since I use the BSA program theres no need to explain it, BSA has already done that. Now, if youll do me the honor of answering my question. Are you suggesting that 14 yr olds cannot or should not be Eagles?

Eagledad, "You think 14 year olds can be Eagles. OK, that's nice." Are you suggesting they cant, or shouldnt, or am I just misinterpreting you? "I was blinded by the fact that you suggest that the 97% of the scouts who didn't get eagle are to blame. Why?" Where did I suggest that? "The Eagle rank is not an age thing." We agree. I was trying to illustrate that point with the two Scouts I mentioned. One reached Eagle at 14 and one reached it on the eve of his 18th birthday. But both of them made it because they set the goal and then achieved it. "how is your program different than the one the non scouters want? What do they want you to do different?" I dont have non-Scouters (or Scouters) proposing a program in my troop. I ensure we follow the BSA program.

Barry Yes, because you put the weight of the blame on one group Okay, Ill bite -- what blame? Go back and read the post that got you upset in the first place. I didnt post in that thread -- or even refer to it. Show me where I was upset. My response was an agreement with Uncleguinea.

Climber, I was told the same thing ("wear whichever one you like"), but that was after completing the course and receiving my beads. During the course (and working our tickets) we were encouraged to wear the tartan neckerchief whenever we were in uniform. Of course we all did. It's an easy way of spotting other Woodbadge "candidates" as well as a great conversation starter. All that said, I believe Eamonn is on target, the tartan is retired once you receive your beads (or don't). After that it's your troop neckerchief or the "pink" one. I wear my troop neckerchief at the weekly meetings and save my "pink" one for special occasions such as courts of honor, Woodbadge ceremonies, etc. Ive never heard of a full tartan neckerchief option, but I did learn that as Woodbadgers we are eligible to become associate members of the Clan McClaren Society of North America: http://www.clanmaclarenna.org/ . Follow the link on their menu for The Scouting Connection and youll find information about joining and a link for the application. It costs $10 per year. Another tidbit found on that site is that the CMSNA will provide congratulatory certificates to Eagle Scouts and will do so retroactively. The recommendation must come from a member, and Im not sure if our associate member status would permit this, but I pass it along in case anyone is interested.

Off base because I stick up for a 14 yr old Eagle who really earned it on his own? Off base because I praise a 17 yr old who realized he really did want to make Eagle and then made it happen? Off base because I noted that, in my experience, those who disparage young Eagles, never made it to Eagle themselves? Sorry, but that has been, as I said, my experience. I am the Scoutmaster of my troop and I neither push the young men in my troop to make Eagle rank, nor restrain them from it until they reach a certain age. My job, and the job of my assistants, is teach, guide, mentor, advise, coach, and support each Scout to develop and realize his own goals. Anyone in my troop who finds the time to disparage the quality of a Scouts Eagle badge is invited to give their 1-hour 90 minutes a week elsewhere. As for the rest of your post, you lost me.

Hey Unc, I agree wit-cha. I've heard the negative comments about young Eagles and in my experience they've always come from adults who were Scouts and didn't make it. Everytime I hear those type of remarks I mention that fact that I personally knew a 14 yr old Eagle. The troop was definitely not an Eagle Mill and his parents were not pushing him. This young man was very driven and it was obvious. I've also seen the flip-side. I had one young man look at his watch and realize he had about 10 months to get his last few badges and a project completed. He took charge and got it done. These two Scouts were exactly alike -- once they'd decided they wanted to earn their Eagle rank, they "planned the work and worked the plan", and I admire both of them.

fgoodwin, I understood your post. My response was for Trevorum. Enjoy Jambo!!

ManyIrons not ask question; ManyIrons repeat question asked by fgoodwin. fgoodwin says "The sermon wasn't sectarian; it was about boys growing up to be responsible men." ManyIrons scratches head; ManyIrons confused . . . but still bemused!!

fgoodwin, thanks for taking my remarks in the spirit that they were offered -- somewhat bemused. I've attended many ceremonies since becoming a Scouter, only 1 or 2 could be considered boring. By far the worst one was a recent NESA Eagle Banquet -- the opening flag ceremony took 20 mins! This was on top of having the Eagles wait outside in the lobby for about 90 mins! Oh and the guest speaker -- he delivered a rambling, disjointed speech, but at least he kept it under 10 mins ALways keep your positive attitude handy -- it'll get you through those occasional boring events!!