magic823

I would love collarless shirts like they had when I was a boy. Wearing a neckerchief with a collar looks tacky. If collarless scout shirts were OK with BP, they are good enough for me. Also another YEAHHHHHH for the knee socks. You need them to wear boots with your uniform shorts. On that topic, good shorts. I don't need or use all the dang pockets on the zip-off pants. Steve

Define relatively inexpensive? Costco has a decent Coleman for $89 right now. Also alway seam seal a new tent unless the manufacturer says otherwise, and take even that with a grain of salt. Steve(This message has been edited by magic823)

Find a mother than has an embroidery sewing machine. My wife has a Viking Designer 1 so it would be easy to make a bunch of these at pennies each. Maybe we should start a business Steve

Since it's my comments that was spun off. My experience as a boy, and my experience as an adult scouter let me to believe it would be exceptionally hard to have a good LDS troop, by virtue of how they structure their programs. The ways I would suggest they change for the betterment of scouting are: 1. Sorry, but no Varsity Scouting. Leave the boys in Boy Scouts till they are at least 16. The 14-16 year olds tend to be when the boys are finally learning to be leaders. Yanking them away from the troop leaves a leadership void. It also would allow troops to be a little bigger. 2. Combining several wards into a bigger troop. This was it gives boys greater opportunities to lead since it allows a more true patrol system. 3. De-emphasize what I see is as the Eagle at all costs mentality that seem prevalent in most LDS troops I've seen. There's no problem in encouraging boys to Eagle, but the push to get it before 14 is excessive and causes a lot of "fudging" of requirements that I've seen. 4. Allow their good Scoutmasters to stay in the job. It was a constant turnover of adult leadership in the LDS troops. My experience as District Camporee Chairman and OA Chapter Advisor allowed me to see almost every troop in action. At camporees, my Tenderfoots knew more scouting skills that the Eagles from the LDS troops. From sitting on EBORs I watched unqualified Eagle canidates from LDS troops get approved (we were told we could fail them). Steve(This message has been edited by Magic823)(This message has been edited by Magic823)

"Steve, I cannot imagine any Troop in Idaho not having a string outdoor program. You're in one of the areas of our great Nation that God designed for recreation :-D" Sad, but that isn't the case. I grew up in Idaho and the troop I was in rarely went camping. I was the only Eagle Scout in a 12 year period from that troop. It was an LDS troop, so I didn't have the option of finding a good one. The so called Scoutmasters that would be fostered on us would turn us loose to play basketball after the opening. We finally got a semi-decent SM that took us backpacking one summer in lue of summer camp (a 5 mile trip - camping at a lake and then back after a couple of days). Since I needed Lifesaving and it was only offered at summer camp, I found other LDS troops that weren't going to camp, found their boys that wanted to go, found leaders to take us, and organized it myself. I'm more proud of doing that as a 14 year old than with my later eagle project. The one thing I swore is that I would never have my sons go to an LDS troop. As a district camporee chairman and OA Chapter Advisor, I had the opportunity to get to know all the troops in the district. In the Green River of the Chief Seattle Council, in my option, there wasn't a LDS troop worth the paper its charter was printed on. Has that changed? I don't know yet. The one thing most LDS troops have against them is the boys get yanked up to Varsity Scouts just when they could provide leadership to the Scouts and typically there isn't enough boys in a troop (ward) to have an effective troop. Even being here in Idaho, I see a lot of troops than only car camp, which is fine if that's all you want. I want my Grandson to get to backpack with a troop.

As a Pre2000WB and one that is planning on taking 21CWB this fall, I have mixed feelings about it. In one case, its an opportunity to network in my new council (I've been out of Scouting for 20 years and I'm living in a different state now). Its also an opportunity to refresh some knowledge. However, on the the hand if its just Organizational Behavior stuff - I have an MBA and took plenty of graduate level classes in that. I'm sure I could teach it in greater depth than will ever be presented in the course (I probaly should bring my OB textbooks to training). My biggest issue is in having to forgo wearing our beads after the course till we work another ticket. I understand the not being allowed to wear the beads during the course. But afterwards, it doesn't make sense to me. Don't they trust us that we would work another ticket? Aren't we trustworthy? If I was planning this thing I would have an additional item, maybe a special bead or woggle that would be awarded to someone who has done both courses and completed a second ticket. There are enough old-timers that wouldn't mind that and actually might increase course attendance. Reward those that go the extra distance.

Wish I could go through B-P orginal Woodbadge course. Now that would be fun! Steve

The bottom line is boys get into to scouting to have fun. As defined in most people minds, the fun of Scouting is camping and the outdoors. Anything that takes away from that fun will be a deterent to membership. Learning leadership from anything resembling a class was hard enough in my MBA program (and I had the reward of my Masters at the end of it). I can't see boys in this age of high stimulous activities staying around through it. As I look for a troop for my grandson to be involved with, a strong outdoor program and a boy led troop are the two things I'm looking for. Steve

Will do Kudu. To effect change, I need to get networked. If that requires (and it seems to do so in my district) that I jump through a few hoops like 21CWB, I'm willing to do so. To go off on a semi-tangent, the problem I see with Scouting today is they are battling issues and things they don't need to and have lost the focus on the things that bring boys to scouting. For instance, this huge battle about gays. Its a battle that doesn't need to be fought. Two-deep leadership will take care of any issues. If a parent is uncomfortable with a troop with a gay leader, don't put your boy in that troop. If there are no boys in that troop, then there is no need to be up in arms. Too often we legislate and create rules where the natural course of things will solve it. It costs BSA millions to fight the battle that in the long term, imho they will lose, maybe not in court, but in public option and dollars. Boys come to Scouting to camp, backpack, and be with their friends. They don't come to be "taught" leadership skills. Those skills need to be crafted to be intrensic to and grow out of the program. Parents and Adult Leaders that do too much ruin the natural leadership teaching opportunities that the boys get. "Off my soapbox, now" Steve

I agree, they are probably qualified. I was just surprised by the number of them since in my previous council it was one, possibly two a year per district, not 6+.

Quick question. What do you mean by "primary role"? Very good point on the networking. I'm new to this council. I moved from Seattle to Boise and really know noone here in Scouting except my co-workers whom are all Eagles. It certainly is different here (I've noticed a big push for Scouter Awards and WoodBadge - more than was in Seattle). My wife and I have decided that we will do the 21CWD this fall. The cost isn't that great and the experience will be good for her. Having done all the leadership and management stuff for my MBA I expect that most of it may be boring for me, but there may be new points to learn. As I orginally said, working a new ticket isn't a big thing for me. What I don't like is not being able to wear my original hard earned beads during the ticket process. It just seems an unnecessary restriction. Steve

Since it was my comment that spun this thread off I'll comment on what I meant when I said "earned" for the Silver Beaver. No, you can't "earn" the Silver Beaver by checking off a list of requirements, but you can "earn" the Silver Beaver by being selfless in your dedication. I "earned" mine for about 10 years worth of work; leading troops, OA advising, organizing and running district camporees. At some point someone takes notice and submits your name for it. In my opinion, the level of effort and accomplishment needs to be large to be choosen for the "Highest Honor" the Council can bestow on a an adult scouter. In the Chief Seattle Council where I cut my teeth at the adult level this was about one, maybe two scouters a year per district. That's why I was a bit shocked to see 6+ scouters in my new district in Idaho getting the award. Did these scouters "earn" it? I have no idea since I'm new here. I hope so. Otherwise it "cheapens" the award. Honor means a lot to me and was drummed into me through Scouting. I wear a number of knots on my uniform that are hard "earned", but every one of them was also a labor of love. There are a number of things in Scouting that I would change if I had the chance. One of the biggest is the "Adult Glorifing" that I often see. We are there for the boys and that is why I have come back after 20 years now that my grandson will be a scout in September. I left because of the adults. The boys were always great....their parents..... It does no good to complain about things from the outside. All I can do is work hard, set the bar high and lead by example and hope it changes Scouting for the better. Steve

I'm just getting back into Scouting after 20 years. Just to set the stage for my following comments, I'm an Eagle Scout and earned it from a Troop that I was the only Eagle in a 12 year period. I've been a SM, ASM, OA Chapter Advisor and more in my Scouting career. I am also a Silver Beaver. As the OA Chapter Advisor I had the opportunity to observe almost all the troops in our district and having run a number of our district Camporees. I was always dismayed by the Eagle factories that a lot of LDS units in the District were producing. At Camporee my Tenderfoots knew more Scouting Skills than their Eagles. From the OA I knew how many nights each unit was camping and I knew many of these units were signing off the Camping MB requirements without 20 nights of camping. I tried asking these boys at EBORs 2nd and 1st Class scouting questions and they couldn't answer them. I wish I could have "flunked" them in their BOR, but it was not allowed. I finally asked not to be on any more EBOR. It was just too painful to watch an award that I was proud of and worked extremely hard for cheapened. After returning to Scouting after the 20 year break, I was amazed that at Roundtable that at least 6 Scouters in the District was getting their Silver Beavers this year. Where I was from, it was about 1 per district that earned that per year. Did these folks truely earn the SB? I don't know these folks well enough yet to know for sure, but I suspect that this district may be more into the adult glorifing and producing the largest numbers of Eagles that they can. I have two adult sons, one got his Eagle, one got to Life. As a SM I could have made it easy on the second son to get his, but then he wouldn't have really been an Eagle. Hoping to change things from the inside, Steve

Thanks everyone. My wife has shown interest in doing WoodBadge also, so if she does it, I'll bite the bullet and do it again with her. If she decides not to, I'll head to Philmont and do the refresher. I would like to someday go to a Jambo as a leader, so if its a requirement to have the 21CWD I might as well get it done.

I've been out of scouting for over 20 years. Back in the 80s and 90s I was a ASM, SM, and OA Chapter Advisor, earned my Silver Beaver and attended Wood Badge in 1989. Since my grandson will be 11 this September I'm getting back into Scouting and have been asked to be a Unit Commissioner. At Roundtable this month, they put on a big push for everyone to get Wood Badge trained. I mentioned that I had already been and they recommended that I attend the new one. My question is that it appears (and they said) I would have to give up my existing beads and rework another ticket. I'm OK with that, but then I see at Philmont Training Center they hare having a Wood Badge Refresher course for pre 21CWB folk and its doesn't seem to require giving up your beads or reworking a ticket. So which is it? Also, from what I pick up the new course seems to be covering all the Leadership stuff I learned in business school when I got my MBA. Not sure how I feel about going through all that stuff again, but I loved Wood Badge the first time I did it. Steve Allen