Mafaking

Ever signed an homework slip for a middle school-er? I have, many of times. A bad test score "sign here dad". Yep! The school and I suspect that this transcend schooling is holding me responsible for my kid's grades. A really bad grade maybe I can understand that but heck the school publishes interim grades, semester grades and year end grades. On one side the school is talking independence at PTA meetings an luncheons and then at night then send me slips to sign because junior didn't finish all his math homework. How involved does the school expect me to be? I feel that this is just not an issue for the parents of a trophy child. There are societal forces at work to create a sense of urgency on the part of parents to maximize the accomplishment of their children. You are successful only to the extent that your children are successful. My son isn't failing to complete his homework, I am failing as a parent to clarify his priorities.

Wow! If we could get automatic electronic payment arrangements life in the troop would be grand. Sign-up and at the end of the month moms sees what she was charged for that campout. In the mean time, just cut the troop a check for $1000 each January and in December we will settle the difference. Maybe there is a business opportunity out there for an enterprising youngster to develop an arrangement where troops and non profits can conveniently accept credit card payments. The untapped growth in commercial credit for lemon aid stands car washes and beggers could be HUGE.

Jet526 writes: "Of the three, scout-craft is much simpler to learn and to teach. Perhaps Mafaking is so hung up on this because anything more is beyond his skill set." Perhaps! But my corporate position, and degrees on the wall would suggest otherwise. But hey who really needs to know that stuff anyway? As a matter of fact I do prefer to delegate.

OGE writes "How many technical types out there know people who became a Supervisor based on being the bet engineer, best technician, best whatever the plant had ever seen and then failed miserably in the position because they didn't know how to manage?" Few! Where did you get this premise? So under the same circumstance the guys from MIT are less successful at leading than the guys from North-East-West State college? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look good posters I am not as angry as my posts may suggest nor am I as hard and fixed that this is completely an either or decision. What I am wrestling with is how to improve the patrols given a limited amount of time. I have given the leadership training in big and small doses but on a recent campout I detected that there is a weak point in the program we are delivering. Anecdotal evidence suggest that the scouts with the better scout craft skills beat out the intellectual gifted scout who had been trained on Patrol Leadership. There is no denying that this occurred only why did this occur. There were some group dynamic going on but so to were these occurring in the other patrols. From a program delivery standpoint the only thing that separates these patrol leaders is there scoutcraft skills. He had all the tools to delegate and lead and he chose not to. I suspect that if I pulled this scout aside and for five hours and powerpointed and group game-ed him until his eye bleed he would be no better as a PL. However, if I took that same amount of time and re-emphasized the first class requirements he would better off to lead his patrol. Refining my post. Is there program experience that one can comment on where the program went back and re-emphasized scout skills as a means to improving patrol leader success?

Naw! Three posters come in and cheer the remark that scout skills aren't that important. "They don't matter in the big picture." Then the same subcribe to the position that if they don't know these skills your program has failed. Wait! if they don't know them and it doesn't matter than how has the program failed? Ah! because you have replaced the skills with the Magic NYLT theory. I am more agreeable to the position that a scout lacking in scoutcraft skills is program shortfall. And support that by stating that these skills are essential for being a successful youth leader within boy scouts. That the BSA PL literature to the contrary are incorrect. Further that its harder for a PL to default or transfer authority as taught in the hand books than it is just to teach him the skills. Delegating is a tough concept when you don't know what iit is that needs to be done. Let's try this; is the concept of delegating authority and directing others a higher order skill than the typically scoutcraft skills? If so can you teach magic management theory to a scout whose scoutcraft skills are weak and obtain sucess? Given a limited amount of time, the unit leadership program is better served by A) teaching scoutcrafts skills? B) teaching management theory? (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

Twocub dad wrote: "First, keep in mind that scoutcraft skills are a means to an end. We're not a camping club. In 20 years I could care less if my Scouts can remember how to tie a bowline or how far from camp their bear bag" Couldn't you say the same about school work? Students learn all sorts and facts and computation that they never use. Yet we emphasize competency in school work. Why? Because learning to master a craft is the objective. Maybe we should teach students to pool and coordinate their efforts. Just learn math management theory. Sports is the same way. You don't have to be a good hitter, fielder or pitcher just be able to keep everyone's spirits up. That' how you will add value. Ok then if competetency need not be mastered to be a PL then exactly whose skills is he manageing? Its an illusion that a scouts can be a good PL and not be proficient in scoutcraft skills. A de-emphasis on skills only to be replaced with management theory is a disservice to the youths we serve. Its easier to deliver a program full of theory than skills. That Eagle scout can't camp worth a darn, tie a knot, set-up a tent, organize a campout or cook a meal. But he is chock full of the magic stuff called "leadership theory".

The Context The current PL training literature endorses a concept that a patrol leader does not have to have the necessary scoutcraft skills just the high level view of the group needs and then delegate accordingly. His is a manger of his group having identified those in the patrol with the skills to perform certain task and then implementing them in the most resourceful manner. Another approach is that it is through the mastering of the scoutcraft skills that elevates the scouts leadership position within his patrol. That by having some of the best scoutcraft skills the other will naturally gravitate to that individual. The PL then naturally ascends in the grouops order as a leader. Further the confidence in having the scout craft skills and being able to demonstrate these skills facilitates his personal development as a leader. My Experience Three patrols go camping one has and experienced PL and a few younger scouts with big hearts but little experience. His patrol does great. The second patrol has scouts similar in age and a highly skilled PL. His patrol does well. The third patrol has older-ish scouts one very experienced scout but a PL and the rest of the scouts have limited experience. This patrol does poorly. Yes, all the PL have had training, mentoring and we routinely review leadership and responsibility at the PLC. All have had about the same amount of leadership training. The main difference that I can see is that the poorly performing PL lacked the initiative and the higher level thought to delegate to the more experienced scout or that the Scout craft skills of the others better prepared them to be leaders. Given the constraints of time we can either focus our attention of developing management theory (EDGE) or scout crafts skills but not both. Which should we choose?

Well shortridge we disagree on this one. I think the Life Saving comparison is an appropriate comparison. One is water based safety rescue the other is land based. Wilderness Survival is a weak badge. It's really only half a badge as it was carved out of the old Camping badge requirements some 20 years ago. Maybe I am a tad too harsh on this one and should have positioned my point as "this badge needs an overhaul".

Make a big deal out of this. Work it into your program as an election learning event. Go over the top with speakers for each critter. Have banners or mock debates. Have a voting booth. Print ballots. Write the four names or use a characters on a sheet of paper. Announce the vote two weeks in advance. Then hand the ballots to the scouts and tell him to go vote right then and there.

Wilderness Survival when compared head to head with the Webelos outdoorsman matches much better than when its compared against Life Saving. In Life Saving there is a lot of 'perform' and 'show' while in the Wilderness Survival MB its nearly all describe and explain. If Life Saving were written in the same tense as wilderness survival it would be, wear a life preserver, stay with the boat and wait for help to arrive. The blow whistle & hug a tree stuff is readily consumed by the parent of a sixth grade boy going out camping in the woods for the first time, but this hardly fits the super citizen image the program is trying to live up to.

I would eliminate wilderness survival. Its not any more than, hug a tree, blow a whistle and don't eat anything until help arrives. That's a Webelso pin if you ask me. Compare that to personal management or camping and the wilderness survival lacks sophistication. Scouts take this thinking OK great I am going to learn minimalist camping and survival just on my wits.

I would eliminate wilderness survival. Its not any more than, hug a tree, blow a whistle and don't eat anything until help arrives. That's a Webelso pin if you ask me. Compare that to personal management or camping and the wilderness survival lacks sophistication. Scouts take this thinking OK great I am going to learn minimalist camping and survival just on my wits.

I am amazed at how many people dehydrate their own food for camping. Almost every time one does a search or reviews a book about backpacking recipes it starts "at home dehydrate the..."

You need at once a distraction and a compromise. Propose that the scouts take a different route or pick a campsite up the trail away from the adults. If its a through hike consider having the adult group hike in from one end and the scouts from the other. Remind the adults of the strife THEY caused the last time they had to be present to judge and criticise the scout's, pace, cooking, cleaning, and why weren't they singing those happy go lucky songs from Follow-Me Boys. Also advise your son, the PL, to hold his patrol in solidarity. If as a group they speak with one voice then it will be harder for the adults to legitimately say they are going for their scout.

good stuff Anyone got a good bread recipe? I found online, whole powdered eggs. Do whole powder eggs rehydrate into a sort of scrambled eggs? Beacuse they seel a seperate mix.

Ok how about some of your favorite Backpacking recipes. I am actually looking for two types of recipes. Ones for the more mature pallet and ones for the less developed pallet.

I'll second Scouter760's idea of going to roundtable and requesting support. The troop from the local military base a couple years ago had a committee person come to roundtable and say all the unit's leaders were deployed. They needed the same sort of help you need, temporary to long term SM's. Use experienced scouters to aid and teach the new leaders. I bet you will get a half an arm raised from within your troop if you arrange to have an experienced SM leading and showing the way. See if you can get a SM to stay for one year, cross-over to cross-over. I wish all the best in your endeavour.

My guess is that you have a disconnect with the parents not the scouts. The parents have checked off this experience as sufficient. They are the ones who see little value in your camping program. Ask them what's wrong with your program. Your scout will go if mom clears their calendar and drops them off.

Back in January the district chair sent out an all points bulletin that they were in need of trainers for a district training event in late February. It would be for an adult training academy. I gave the long list a glance over and picked one I was interested in. I replied to the district chair and included a general outline of how I'll teach it. I had asked for a syllabus and they had none. I was to create one. I replied that I'll follow the program as written and introduce how our troop has put into practice. Pretty basic stuff. A couple of let me check emails and the chair writes back OK you'll teach that, thanks. So I order resource material (free) from the State and County. I start brushing up on that part of the program. I also hold that date open on the calendar. A month later I attend Round Table and that class is listed as being taught by someone else. 'Hey, um, I thought I was teaching that class'. Program organizer, "No, so & so is. You can pick something else though." Me, "I'll think about it." Not! I am not risking one of my precious Saturday's driving 60 miles round trip to find the true limits of your competence were exceeded four weeks earlier. I'll get there expecting to teach something, with material in hand and my own outline, but good old 'what his name', will be listed as doing it. No thanks! I am really put out by this. More than is truly warranted and I am not sure why.

No disparage. I bet I would like your ASM and ask him about his patch. Forums like this are somewhat crude at making a point. I just wouldn't make the NT patch the focus.

If you have the know-how I would skip the guide and commemorative paddles and do the self guided thing. The scouts will learn more. You compared this to your whirl-wind tour through Europe. That is exactly what a trip to the boundary waters shouldn't be about. Pick a good route and you'll see great rapids, beaver dams and maybe a moose. I would suggest you consult with the outfitter for routes, portages and fishing recommendations. There is majesty in pushing off from a landing for week in the back country with just your own wits. (shields -up) I for one am not the impressed by a 45 year man wearing a 30 year patch from his scouting youth such as Philmont. It is what he has done since that impresses.

Hungry Jacks Outfitters on the Gunflint trail. They aren't a mega outfitter but they have ~30-40 canoes, a bunkhouse and the family that runs its has a couple of scout age boys. Good people! Plus Grand Marais is a lot more charming than Ely. While in Grand Marais visit the saw mill and take a drive up to Grand Portage and visit the fort to learn the history of the Voyageurs.

They way the old books are written it seems that all you had to do was give the scouts a patrol flag, and a place to camp and the patrol method magically happened. Now its seems to be one of the hardest parts of the program to develop. Its appears forced on the youths by the adults. The concept is foreign by today's practices. Train: we train Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities Give them room to lead: OK we do that Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

Has society changed in that the world is now ad-hoc and thus scouting is just a reflection of a societal trends? My department consciously forms and reforms groups based on needs. I myself don't report to a single boss but to several. People associate and "congregate" at on-line forums instead of at the Moose Lodge or the neighborhood pub. Kids are driven to events and the kids in the neighborhood may or may not be the ones they associate with. Kids are in multiple assciations, scouts band, sports, clubs.

Mammoth Cave in addition to the standard tourist tours has "trog" tours. These are geared towards youths. The youths wear hardhats with lights old clothes and knee pads and scamper down paths away from the crowds. Also the park above ground is beautiful. The Green River travels through the center of the park. They have boat tours and maybe even canoe rental (not sure, you'll have to google that one) There are plenty of camping spots and great trails above ground. The two river ferries neat to take across. Depending on your stay time I would cycle the events: Day 1 Take a general long cave tour Day 2 Visit above ground trails, water falls Day 3 Trog outing, Day 4 Boat Ride