Mafaking

Sorry jblake47, I must disagree with going to the DE on this. Too often I see this advice on these forums, Just go to the DE or Council. Do this only if you want one pissed-off SM. This is an internal spat. A difference of opinion. You have made some progress. But not enough key people share your opinion to boot out the extra adults (retired this and former that). You may consider one trip a year as a return to our roots hike. All other times this is a program designed and funded for the sole purpose of developing boys.

Kid wets his bed, gets physical with his buddy. Blames buddy for aggression. Then demands to go because he is emotionally exhausted. RED FLAGS I bet that's not even the entire list. The mom needs to level with you on what is going on with this kid. He ain't right. If the bladder issue is a long term issue he would have had the experience to deal with it. He would have time before where people got frustrated with taking him to the bathroom. And the bed wetting he should have known to wear pull-ups. I suspect that the "bladder issues" are the product of an emotional response to the campout. Find out if the bladder issues come and go and if so under what circumstances do these issue occur. Also if this occurred on the second day of the campout was there medication that was supposed to be taken but wasn't. His former den leader may be able to shed some light on these issues.

I have seen scouts be prohibited from a weekend campout cause mom can't go. When a little pressure is applied the results are mixed. A few have given just a little but more often the parents sees this as being judgemental of their parenting skills and just ignore you. They know what's best for their son. And they do. We now recruit. The unit now provides a lengthy "this is our scouting program objectives" to new prospects and cross overs. This document emphasizes among, others things Personal Growth and independence as a unit strength. However, because scouting is set up with simultaneous Webelos cross overs and New Scout Patrols the unit selection process is more of a group decision. Hence a scout family who is not prepared to go to summer camp can get swept up in a unit that goes to summer camp. Summer camp is scary enough for some parents, an out of council summer camp just ratchets up the fear. Go out of state and its an OMG phenonamon.

Its threads like this one that keep me hooked on these forms. What a good thread. It also screams out for a parody topic. Something Like: Missing BO = no HBO

Daddy'o With each new post from you I become more skeptical of your sincerity. Your explanations are ever more unbelievable. Your eagerness to force ever more pages of discussion are symptoms of a person whose only real intent is to see the post count go up. I suspect you are a troll. That aside, you are a caricature of a parent with whom I believe shops for the very best of everything, while missing out on the content. What's the best karate school? Regardless of how the instructor achieves these means. Where is the best little league? Who cares if it is across town and none of Juniors friends on the team. This team won State's last year. This parent systematically designs their kid's childhood like a horse trainer develops a stallion. But a child is not a domesticated beast to be trained. His childhood is not to be charted and graphed as if he were a purchased investment. Its dehumanizing. In the end you either get my skepticism or my pity. Either way I am fairly certain of one thing, all this advice has been for naught.

We tell our scouts to have fun. The MB's are an alos ran to what really is a vacation. What else would it be? If the choice is between citizen of the..... and canoeing take canoeing. Those text book MB's can be done on slow burns over the winter. And don't load up on MB's. Camps always have a free time in afternoon. Please use it. 4 MB's in a week is fine. Six and you are hitting it hard. More than six and you are missing on what summer camp is supposed to be FUN!. If it looks like school it ain't summer camp.

Beavah a while back posted to the affect that, the scout is after what his peers and the adults within his unit expect from an Eagle. The scout is more interested in the opinion and respect of the adults standing next to him at his Court of Honor than some far off scout executive represented only by a signature. I know that this is above the requirements but so what. One could establish that to some extent the National requirements for Eagle are minimum standards. All parents and scouts in this unit are fully aware of what this SM expects of their Eagles. The SM takes pride and no doubt so do the scouts who complete their Eagle in this troop. This troop is sought out by scouts and families who identify "Eagle" with a Robust outdoor background. (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

I watched it. As usual Stan is the level headed thinker and the adults around him are consumed by irrational ideas. I dose off at the end so I don't know what they did with all the space money. Caught some early Scout episodes are their Website. Some time they are cubs and sometime they are scouts.

I will advise you that you really don't have a "high card" against the scoutmaster. You would be joining for your son's benefit not the scoutmaster's. Further that based on your writings, the Boy Scout program is not for your son or your family.

Its You. He has stolen your troop. The items you mentioned are hardly high crimes. Attending the PLC? I would expect the SM to be present at the PLC. I get the feeling you were running the PLC directly or indirectly until HE showed up. Schattenmann wrote "About two years ago, complaints started coming to a head." This just might be your pose agreeing with you. As far as the other POR, the SM Handbook outlines the SPL chooses the POR with help from the SM. SPL are not above cronyism but between the two they should get a good balance of scout and position. Even two ASPL's maybe he is trying to use all three, the SPL and 2 ASPL's to help train the ignorant PL. Yea the son and dynasty thing is a sign of real trouble so I will give you that this is problematic. No open elections is bad and a sign that the troop is off course. SM's get removed for bad role models, negligence, poor safety habits, inappropriate money use, G2SS issues things like that. Rambling meetings and and boring the pants off the parents, well that just goes with the job description. (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

rclearh2o, you posted this on April 13 with presumably a couple of weeks to go before your Blue and Gold and Pack cross over. Your problem is that your Pack has these events scheduled too late in the Calendar year. The Webelos II Den leader needs to get his scouts in Boy Scouts to make some campout prior to summer camp. He needs to cross now. I am one for separating the Cub Scout main events; Blue and Gold - Arrow of Light and Cross Over. I know the resources of the pack are such that planning and organizing a Blue and Gold Dinner is a big deal. So Packs naturally want to use the Blue and Gold as and end of the year award ceremony. Logical Right! Except that the Webelos II program is structured to end about January or February so that the scouts can cross in early spring. He may be a difficult Den Leader but he is doing what he needs to do for his scouts.

gwd-scouter, At times these threads can get personal. Our minds twist these responses into more than what they are, just black ticks on a grey background. I know less about what boy led means now than I did five years ago. After reading several thousand scouter.com posts and hundreds of debates on these forms I am much more cynical when a scouter comes up and says "we are boy led". As a discussion group we have our norms and debates flow and turn on each others expectations. I am more kind and forgiving of boy-led statements made in person than I am on this forum. Just one of you step out of line and I'll send my black ticks after you. Buffalo Skipper has a good parallel. I think a lot of companies use this sort of approach. Walmart seems to have various levels of approval for their cashiers. First degree cashiers just push buttons. Lead cashiers can make over-rides up to $25. Head cashiers $100 and so forth. The level of responsibility is matched to the authority. I think to some extent the BSA program leadership element is over the heads of the bulk of the youths in our troop. The 12 & 13 year olds are just now coming into who they are as a person. Leadership is smoke, it can be seen but not held. The High school boys get into the leadership much more than the middle school scouts. But the the high school scouts lose some of the passion that the younger ones have. If we gave more authority to the scout would they respond? I haven't loaded them up on a lot "can't" right now and they aren't coming to me saying they need more authority. Could a stepped and well defined authority level be developed and clearly presented to the youth leadership such as the head cashier approach? Perhaps a road map would make it clearer.

I don't see any SPL's at RT. Nor is there a big push to have them attend. But it would make sense if the RT programs were geared toward SPL's. It is hard to grow as a leader especially a new leader if experience is limited. SPL's could bring ideas back to the PLC instead of the adults. Funny our RT staff is currently looking for a purpose. Attendance is poor and getting worse. There is a perception that there is little value in going to RT. The breakouts are weak, the discussion agendas delivered from Texas are as exciting as toast. The meetings are long drawn out affairs held in a very un-business like way. The silly games, woodbdge shenanigans is diffenitly and acquired taste (read tolerance). RT is to be indured more than anything else. Troops are, by-in-large insular. The youth leadership gets little in the way of peer examples that he can draw on to create a vision and lead the troop program. A monthly RT meeting geared toward SPL could prove beneficial. Instead of the adults filtering the programs the troop may like such as the camporee's and service projects the SPL could. And just like the adults, some program choices he will get right and others will be a miss. Do SPL go to RT's? No! At least not in our district. BUT I could see a benefit in a youth leadership venue either monthly or bi-monthly where SPL's coverage to gain skills, exchange ideas and learn what's going on in the district. Would they attend? Not in mass but neither are many of the troops and packs in my district attending anyway.

I am no tea-toddler but I am a for all things scouting. These people are a scourge to scouting. A scout needs medical attention in the middle of the night are you are to drunk to deal with it? You Ba*****!

Bev, I am not sure what you are getting at with this thread. Forced values through public conversations; sounds like church. Scouting should have a more natural flow, not forced. The growth in values comes from within the scout through varied and numerous experiences. The experiences come from traveling to places never seen before, doing things never done before, being independent, and learning along the way among fella's with shared beliefs. What value conversations are camping clubs missing?

I think the anti-military was directed at me. Actually for as many pages as this thread is, it is still mostly on topic. That's a positive change. Now as far as the anti-military assertion "kick" I am on this is a bit of a puzzle. I only have one post in this thread and it came on page three. Well after several other posters referenced the military and push-ups. But for the record I am not nor could our troop be anti-military. Let's continue with comparisons, adults lead by example. One of the committee member slacks off and isn't prepared for an event during a weekend outing. He should be made to do push-ups. Wait! you say, he is an adult volunteer in community youth organization, push-ups are out of place. I try to treat the scouts as I would an adult and lead by example, I would never demand an adult give me ten. You can't pick and choose program elements. Push-ups work in the military because it fits in with the over all program. Conformity and discipline are so paramount in this organization that for a few months you live sleep and eat only as the instructors dictate. Sports too. Push-ups may work there but the coaches set the plays, determine who plays what position and winning is the score card. Would 4H use push-ups? Debate club? Science club? Student forum? Do public schools? No!

"What Type of Troop Are You?" Was the question frequently asked of us at a recent scout leader training event. "Gee, I don't know." was my reply. They replied "We are a backpacking troop." "We canoe a lot" Our troop does an annual planning calendar. The scouts pick and vote on what they want to do. Each year its different because each year the collective interests of the scouts change. Don't get me wrong we have canoed and backpacked but it's not our focus. So I guess I am travel club. What type of troop is your troop?

I got one PL that has repeatedly asked to use push-ups as a form of discipline for his patrol. He wants to lord over is scouts and make demands of them. When this fails he wants to force punishment on them. The simplistics tasks assigned his patrol become issues of "they won't do as I tell them". I have taught and explained the "leading by example" routine to no avail. He is a just a lousy PL. Through his eyes the world is seen differently than through mine. In his eyes the world is stratified, those above the line are the ruling class and those below are to be ruled. We scout leaders are charged with producing high quality citizens not Marines. Civic life and professional leadership don't rely on push-ups and neither should the scouts. We do not allow push-ups as a form of discipline in our troop.

Its about time marshmallow cooking was adopted into the woodbadge program. Here is an expanded list from the same sweat lodge elders. The follow bans will be in effect upon the first full moon of summer. Marshmallows roasting & by Incorporation som-mores Field use of Jiffy Pop (it never works outside the kitchen, Why try?) Hotdogs with out buns (a kid could choke) Open fires (these things are hot, and unnecessary) Propane lanterns (LED lights are better for the environment) Liquid Fuel stoves (Scouts should learn to eat cold food on campouts) Swimming (all water activities will be limited to 24 depth) Canoeing with out a registered guide from Maine or Minnesota (National has a list of two guides but intends to expand this list to three by July 4) Camping in the rain Fun Games Sense of adventure (High spirited youth tend to ruin the adult experience)

Marsh Mellowing roasting Ban. :0 The council of elders while in discussion within the Texas sweat Lodge have decided that hence forth Marshmallows must be eaten raw. Under no circumstances shall flame, charcoal, or heating element be used to heat, toast or warm marshmallows. The following reasons are cited: 1) Marshmallow flavor is inexplicitly unchanged with heating. The council of elders found no bona-fide reason to roast, toast or heat the marsh Mellow. 2) Numerous Marshmallows have been consumed in flames and wasted due to improper cooking techniques. Attempts at teach the use of hot coals as a heat source instead of open flames has eluded the collective wisdom's of the scouting youths. The flaming marshmallow is typically deemed useless except for use as a torch once self sustaining combustion is reached. 3) Marshmallow cooking is no longer taught in Woodbadge. Lack of proper leader training in this skill has led to several mishaps including double marshmallow cooking and untold loses due to improperly securing the marshmallow to the extension device. 4) Finally the extension device used creates issues. a) The device is seldom properly sanitized between uses. Often dirt and fire are used as sources the removal of debris from the extension device. b) The extension devices have been used as improvised swords in a would be pirate battle. C) They could poke an eye out.(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

At every juncture our troop tries to inform the Webelos II parents about summer camp and getting in some troop campouts prior to summer camp. We hold a webelos outing, supply den chiefs and try to have joint activities. However, if the troop is working through the Cub Master and he is not on top of facilitating the cross over than the information does not get disseminated to the den leaders and even less filters down to the parents. Our recent visitors included four moms and one dad. All knew very little about boy scouting. The ten minutes I spent with them wasn't going to cover the entire program. To our benefit our troop has some older scouts and some that could grow beards if they so chose. To a Cub mom whose boy is still in elementary school our troop looks like its too old for her elementary school child. With overnight canoe outings and backpacking our program is a little ambitious too. Our "this is our program" hand out sheet reads about how we are trying to develop personal reliability and leadership skills. Summer camp scares the beegeebees out of the parents too. Just last night I got, "Scouts go to a week long camp without a parent?" "Yep! all the time." I said. The crux of my what I am saying is that the decisions of who picked our troop and who picked the one on the opposite side of town didn't come down to who was better organized. Heck, they came from cub scouts and den leaders with big hearts but not much training. We are organized enough (12 month calendar, fixed PLC meetings..) No the moms picked the other troop because our program looked too mature for their comfort level. I tried to explain that their boys won't be 10.5 forever and that in a year or so our "more mature program" will be more appealing and hold the scout's interest more. This was to no avail and several choose the other troop. One parent hinted that after a year with the other troop and after getting their feet wet in scouting they will likley come re-visit us. OK, fine but I am not going to be looking for you. I am not interested in fixing more scouts from bad units.

You could cross him now. A scout does not need the arrow of light or the permission of the Cubmaster to join a troop. Besides he has already earned his Arrow of Light it is only the ceremony and the award that he is awaiting. He can attend his AoL ceremony as a Boy Scout. If the Cubmaster protests warn him that a scout could loose interest just waiting in limbo between advancements.

'A match is a match is a match, natch. ' Typical comment from a lighter man.

I don't know if I would indite our entire society on one kid tripping and busting his chin open. I have seen what you are talking about at Cub Worlds. The kids are allowed to go run and play while parent A & B chat it up about the difficulties of raising children. The parents believe right or wrong that this is a cub camp and someone somewhere is keeping an eye on the kids. What I have also seen is the camp director ban all sorts of things. No climbing in trees, no climbing on or over fallen trees, "stay off the stage. No playing with sticks. Cubs want to explore, see how far they can jump off the stage. Find out what's stronger the cub and his muscles or the flag pole rope. A balance needs to be struck between putting them in a sterile pen and letting them climb on everything. If allowed to provide input on one of these cub worlds I would suggest activities for the night of arrival. Activity X, begins at 6:00 PM, with scheduled activities until 9:00 PM. Have an entertainer come in. Anything to sop up the unlimited energy in the cubs attending a campout. As far as the guy's quirky behavior once his son was injured, parents usually make decision on the best interest of their child and their own experience. Parents and even the medically trained ski patrol for the cited example don't always understand how serious the injury is. The "I don't want to make a big deal out of this" likely stems from a natural reaction that nothing really bad is going to happen to my son. And $10,000 for and airlift is not to be scuffed at.

Penley Strike anywhere matches are better than Diamond strike anywhere matches. My favorite and most reliable way to start a fire is with a half stick of a Coleman fire starter and one Penley match.