Mafaking

Ah yes the Holy Trinity of scouting. Scout led troops will pick fun vacation type outings Committees and parents want value, time and money well spent Scoutmasters want rugged leadership and self growth events. Congratulations you have a boy led troop. Support the scouts of course. You are on the right track; have the scouts earn half the outing's fee through fundraisers. Be stern with the parents and think of all the personal growth arguments you can, setting a vision, earning one's keep..... If you make this a family event then it gets hard to sort out the fundraising. Do all participants get credit for the bake sale, popcorn sale or yard clean-up?

SMT224 That's a good way to do it. The program material should offer suggest more variables such as that.

"I am concerned that I may lose the best leader we have to another troop." Doubtful most Troops are like yours in voting patterns. "Perhaps what it boils down to is I see this as a lose-lose situation for the troop." It is. Although we follow the program just like it says; SPL elected in troop wide elections every six months an PL elected by patrols. This program element does not always promote the highest skilled scout into leadership positions. Its a reward system or popularity contest. Then during the SM conferences the Tenderfoots complain that the meetings are disorganized, they would like less nonsense from their leaders. - Well then you should have elected the serious High School student and not the silly middle school scout.

Stick to your planned Den outing. The CM should have had his pakc schedule out well in advance of your Den planning calendar. The CM is slacking. He didn't get the calendar out in time, does not have a location and has no real plan or budget for the outing. He will cancel the pack outing and blame you. Your lack of participation made him cancel. Shrug it off as it was he who completely failed to plan according to BSA guidelines. Any Baloo trained leader will recognize and make every attempt to stick to the schedule for planning an event. With less than a month to go and no site selected he is way behind.

That night I would have done exactly what you did. Based on what you said I would bet that this troop and scoutmaster habitually bully and plead ignorance about these matter. Likely they sent an advance group out there specifically to procure this site as they did not have the proper reservations. Hence the split arrival times. I would immediately file a complaint with their Council and District executives. Any other group such as a church youth group or other organized group would be furious over this. Another group may have even called the Sheriff. This troop makes good responsible troops look bad. This troop owes your troop an apology and needs to be taught that their methods and camping practices are completely inappropriate.

These are leadership training requirements within the program to aid in the scout's personal development. They are not jobs. Would a doctor still be a doctor if he didn't finish his internship? He needs two more months.

The SPL needs to exert authority over this little emperor or put him on an island. I think the spy scout was scribe. Have the SPL immediately select a new scribe. Then put this spy scout under the POR as special project's of the SM. Get him out the PLC. If this scout goes and stays with the other troop all the batter. However, armed with his new found information he will come back and exert even more of his will over the troop. He will make it up if he needs to. "Troop 1 does it this way". 2nd though. During his month long spy campaign on the troop get your SPL to meet the other SPL at McDonalds to discuss the burdens of being SPL. He talks to the troops your SPL talks with the officers.

We lose more scouts to band and sports than we other troops.

It is the absence of the boy led questions that shows an adult run bias. "Am I missing something?" Perhaps The program design allows a scout to reach Life based on four months as a librarian and six months as a bugler, or any combination there of. Then the scout is expected to design and manage a 100 hour multi-task Eagle project. The led up exceptions of the Troop's program based on the BOR do not support this leap. "Did you have fun at camp? Have any hobbies? Are you reverent?" Wonderful questions, and most programs are likely geared towards answering these questions well. But the program is not inherently designed to produced leadership qualities. The BOR questions and guide to conducting a BOR's focuses much more broadly. Based on the typical questions, I would say the BSA down plays the importance of leadership qualities. On these forums and in SM conversations we emphasize leadership, discuss boy led and how to use the patrol system, but the fact of the matter is that the program is not based on strong youth leadership. Its not a deliverable. (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

After re-reading this post. My position is, if the program's quality is assessed during the BOR then based on the typical questions asked during the BOR the program is assumed to be adult led. agree/disagree

In context, Lisa is right MacScouter is not the official BSA policy. I don't think there is a set of official BSA, BOR questions. These were presented from a well known website as a reasonable committee person's perspective on what should be asked during a BOR. I think within the spirit of scouting is this ideal of a can do man able to go forth with confidence and achieve his goals. But goals require plans, means and measures. The program is not about plans, means and measures. From the generic questions from MacScouters its about hobbies, badges and service.

From MacScouter Sample BOR Questions Life Scout: 1. What is the most ambitious pioneering project with which you have assisted? Where? 2. What has been your worst camping experience in Scouting? 3. How many patrol meetings has your patrol held in the last three months? How many of them have you attended? 4. Have any of the merit badges you have earned lead to hobbies or possible careers? 5. What are your hobbies? 6. Of the merit badges you have earned, which one do you think will be of greatest value to you as an adult? Why? 7. Why do you think that the three "Citizenship" merit badges are required for the Eagle Rank? 8. What is your current (most recent) leadership position within the Troop? How long have you held that position? What particular challenges does it present? What is Leadership? 9. Do you have any brothers or sisters who are in Scouts (any level)? What can you do to encourage them to continue with Scouts, and to move forward along the Scouting Trail? 10. How do you choose between a school activity, a Scout activity, and a family activity? 11. Why do you think that Star and Life Scouts are required to contribute so much time to service projects? What service projects are most rewarding to you? Why? 12. Why do you think that a Board of Review is required for rank advancement? 13. How has Scouting prepared you for the future? 14. What does it mean to say, "A Scout is Reverent"? 15. What does "Scout Spirit" mean to a Life Scout? 16. Why do you think that Scouting for Food is referred to as a "National Good Turn". 17. The Scout Oath refers to "Duty to Self"; what duty do we have to ourselves? 18. If the Scout is a member of OA: What role does OA play in Scouting? What honor do you hold in OA? What is the difference between Scout "ranks" and OA "honors"? 19. In what year was Boy Scouts of America founded? [Answer: February 8, 1910 - BSA Birthday] 20. Have you begun to think about an Eagle Service Project? What are you thinking about doing? When? http://www.macscouter.com/Scoutmaster/BoR_Guide.asp#LIFE _________________________________________________________________ From a Board of Reviewer's (parent's) Perspective these are the the expectation from the program. If these questions were different. Say geared much more towards leadership, the program would be run different and the expectations of the committee (parent) would be different too. If the questions were: Which outing did you plan exclusively and which did you assist others in planning? Tell me the steps needed to plan an outing? How was the outing location and date selected. What was the budget for the outing? How did you develop the budget for the outing? Did you meet or exceed your budget? How was the turn out? How could participation have been better? What methods did you use to get out the message out about the outing? What activity occurred on the outing? What special equipment was needed? How was this arranged? Describe how this activity was safely done by the participants? Its a fine line, let's see if I can walk it. I believe the second set of questions are more pertinent to a Life scout going forward into his Eagle project than the earlier set of questions. I would prefer the the program were more geared toward leadership development. But its not. The program is not just about leadership. I would like to focus more on the leadership elements but the program dilutes this among many other program elements. It's not even a focus on the Life's scout BOR. Its not a parental expectation. Change the deliverable and I'll modify the implementation of the program.

"Anyone else seen that scenario playout in your troop?" Yes "Have you allowed it happen?" No I would (and have) bumped it along by making reservations at the site. Too many hours were spent getting to the point of having a campout listed for a month with a date and location selected. We don't have too many just camping in the county park type outings. Given the choice the scouts pick the top tier stuff were the activities are obvious. I would tell the PLC that the reservation has been locked in. From the planning calendar plan we know the event at the campout e.g. Pioneering, fishing, kayaking, swimming , hiking.... I would then probe the scouts at the PLC to assess their ideas for their campout expectations. Fish all day or fish half a day? Then it would be up to the PL to inform their patrols on what to equipment bring and the meals needed.

Ok break it down for me. Where is the adult/youth line PLC Approves the following: Campout, Birch River overnight canoe outing, April 2010. Troop has never gone there before but it is commonly known that many council Boy Scout troops have taken this trip. It is 100 miles from the meeting hall. The next step is what and who takes it?

I think you should have been there. Running a meeting is one part skill one part art. Your SPL may have had the skill to have an agenda and know what needs to be discussed but not the art to recognize when others are sabotaging the meeting and preventing progress. An issue gets too controversial, suggest the scouts table that issue until more information can be collected. One scout monopolizes the conversation, suggest the SPL hear from others as well. Diffused debates, suggest the SPL summarize the topic being discussed and ask the scouts to focus on that topic. Traditionally the PLC is where the leadership training happens. This is where they learn how to run their own Patrol meetings and carry out their POR's. If the PLC is complete chaos with several scouts talking at one time, then so will the patrol meetings. My opinion, the SM needs to be at the PLC to coach them through their own agenda.

As Lisa said the scout's wants exceed their planning capabilities. Year long calendar plan, done that. Had great input from the scouts. Our troop prides its self on providing the campouts the the scouts want. I could go on but for sake of this debate except that the scouts know where they want to go and know how they want to spend their recreational time. Its the next step that is the problem. A twelve month calendar plan with reservations required at 12 different sites, canoes that have to be rented. Fees deposit confirmation notices arranged and filed. It is just beyond what I have been able to get the scouts to do. Our Scout selected weekend campouts are too complex for the average 12 -13 year old PL to arrange. I have trouble getting adults to do research and make plans. Ask an adult to grab a campout date. A newbie adult will let a week or two pass then come back and say that weekend was taken. "Ok did you grab the next one?" "No, I wanted to check with you first" A seasoned adult will grab the best date for the troop. Heck, a really seasoned adult will grab both and then decline the one the troop doesn't want latter. If the campouts were to the same camping spot just outside of town every month then the scouts could handle it. Lem had it easy. Our weekend campout range is in the hundreds of miles. The day planning for the outing is something different; the scout can handle that. (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

"Never had the guts to try that in my troop...don't like camping alone." Its not so bad. Usually mid day on Saturday my wife drops my son off so I don't spend two nights alone.

"How can we better emphasize self-reliance? We can't. Scouting is a 90 minute program once a week. An elective, extra curricula activity for boys with surplus time and parents with sufficient money. The self reliance issue is entirely a family and cultural phenomenon. Emphasize "boy led": the PL does not show up for a campout. The PL quits coming to campouts, the PL evokes that camping is not required in the scout hand book to make Eagle. "pull him" you say, well isn't that the SPL's decision, oh no the committee which is really a parents watch dog group is there to finalize all program decisions. Backpack your way to Independence: Great but in a boy led troop they didn't pick the backpack outings. Boy led is one of the most misunderstood concepts in scouting. It should be, Adult Led - Boy Played. Sorry for the negativism but my youth leadership is just not stepping up. They can't or won't organize an outing. Meetings are play dates. The holy trinity of scouting: SM: want charter building and challenging events to make men out of them Parents: want and investment return on the money and their kid's time. "How much fun did you have?" Youths: want leisure free time way from books and the pressures of daily life.

Service is service. The only reasons I can see for scouts specific service project is for the BSA to take credit for the service. If we go back a step and examine why BSA requires community service of our scouts I will suggest that it is more for the development of the scout than to provide free labor to the community. While doing service the scout learns about his community, may go to places and see people they have never seen before. Experience the satisfaction of helping others. Learn leadership and work ethics. If we agree that the primary purpose of requiring scouts to do service projects is for the individual scout's development, than it should not matter under what banner the work is performed. Now if the argument is that the community needs the free service from their teenagers. That this is a form of payback for free public education. Well then we have a different argument all together. Why not just make it 1,000 hrs? That should cover the $8,000 a year cost for one pupil. But we built thees tykes soccer and baseball fields to play on too. Tack on anther 200 hours. Dang teenage moochers!

I just spent about a week with the family traveling the Dakotas, including the Bad Lands, Black Hills and Mt Rushmore. Rapid City is a tourist trap, filled with put-put golf and fake Indian Jewelry. Sturgis and Deadwood are for the adults. The Black hills are nice but not as nice as the Rockies. I didn't make it to Wind River cave or Custer park where the buffalo roam. Just on an over all experience for scouts from Wisconsin, take them to the Rockies (Colorado) where the peaks are 13,000 - 14,000'. The Black Hills top out 6,000 - 7,000'. As far as hiking, some of the hardest hiking I every did was in the foot Hills of south Carolina. It was up 100' down 80' and the patterned continued for miles. I much prefer an even 1,500' climb over several miles than a 500' climb with ups and downs spaced at 1000' intervals. What I am saying is that smaller mountains do not necessarily mean easier hiking. Either trip is a good trip and the scout will remeber it for a life time. It's just a matter of what you want to get out of it.

"what do you guys think about that?" I think we are having a philosophical debate about new scout patrols. What I think that, is that you need is to have heart felt talk with the scoutmaster(s) about the handling of new scouts in the troop. Implore the leaders to consider your opinions. What does the PLC think? As an adult leader I would give a lot of credence to a JASM who has been with the troop for seven years joining as a Tenderfoot. After all I am 30 years past being a tenderfoot aged scout.

"Question - how much should an adult Leader be involved in the" "Training", A lot this is the leader's main responsibility, "mentoring", Just Enough to not look too obvious. To me mentoring is more of "leading by example" demonstration. A walk the talk and delivering on commitments made. "advising" A little goes along away. Too much advice is often spilled out to the scouts in big doses. The opposite should be the rule. For instance, the whole meeting went bad, work on the open ceremony, get it right. See if that settles the scouts down. Next improve the skill demonstrations and so on. Where is the perfect spot between a task master and an aloof leader in a scouting environment? Don't know. I haven't found it yet. In many circumstances Scouts fail and leaders fail too. Tiger Woods just failed to win a tournament. Your leader may have failed in delivering the right amount of mentoring/advising tonight. It happens. (This message has been edited by Mafaking)

Mike F. I like that Idea.

In kcs_hiker, post he/she was merely presenting a comparison between an unregulated gang and a Boy Scout patrol. SR540Beaver, your words that this poster and Kudo are rejecting civility is a mis-characterization of the issue. Clever, but misdirected. Thus if I will argue that Baden Powell conceived of less adult equalized gang than we presently teach too. I can't believe I am writing this but it seems warranted, I am not against civility. There is something wrong with the BSA Boy Scout program for the application of patrol method. A "program" or a process should develop a desired outcome based on the following: the quality of the input, the programs internal performance and the operator's ability to use the program correctly. The more complicated the program, the harder it is to use. Also the more complex and multiple results required the more difficult it is to train people on it and the more varied output will be. Strong patrols and strong PL's just don't readily pop out of the BSA program. Even when the quality of the input (the scouts) is high. You can blame the operators (SM, ASM CC, COR) but the program is complex and somewhat unstable. Every six months the program is reconfigured by elections. The BSA program seems to squeeze units into the troop method. The 10-15 minutes allotted at meetings for patrols is completely insufficient. Patrols can meet externally but even after sending scouts to NYLT this is not happeninmg. Patrols can do outings seperatly put it doesn't happen unless adults push the issue. So in the end I agree with Kudo, the BSA program requires adults to lead the patrols towards individual autonomy. Not the other way around.

I have two male 18 year old venture crew scouts that did a good job this past year and at summer camp. They came out of a different troop so it was easy to identify themselves and to the troop as mature young adults. I am losing both to out of state colleges this month. What a loss to the troop, but what great men these fella's are becoming. I would gladly take an 18 year old male Venture Crew scout. Just not a female. And before I start getting Private Messages on what a nasty I am towards women, I have a Sliver awarded Girl Scout whom I am pushing to get her gold while she participates in a BSA Venturing Program.