madkins007

I think push-ups as a punishmnet show a certain lack of real thinking in the process. Whether they are permitted or not, I think it is a poor punishment AND a poor consequence. Consequences for behaviors should be as natural as possible. Youth not in uniform may not be permitted to partake in some element of the program for the night (flag ceremony, contests, treats, whatever) based on a previously-known standard. OR you reward the Scouts IN uniform in some way that those out of uniform want to participate in. As far as using unpleasant duties- I think this is better handled by a simple and fair rotation- maybe we could even call it somethig catchy, like the Patrol Method. On the other hand, chores CAN be good consequences if handled right- http://www.loveandlogic.com/Pages/0401generic.html. I LOVE the 'Love and Logic' approach- while the website stuff is kinda skimpy it is still worth a look.

When I was actively trading international patches, I had WONDERFUL results looking for unit websites in the country I was targetting. Search for something like 'boy scouts mexico' and look for hints of unit sites. E-mail the contact person and let them know what you are trying to do.

I WISH we could sell something like a unique candy or snack bar selection, something that could be priced at a buck a bar, $10/12 pack, etc. With all of the smaller snack and candy companies out there, and all the beloved regional flavors, I think this would be very possible. Just think of it... "ScoutBars- Energy for YOUR adventure!" As far as district support, I also really wish I had the choice, as a parent and unit leader, to pay my 'fair share' via direct donation OR fundraising participation. Our council SORTA does this- if you did X amount of Popcorn you get a break on the cost of camporees, camps, and so on. At first, this ticked me off- but upon reflection, I like the 'pay as you go' idea better and better- especially when you retain the option of paying with fundraising, etc.

CM Jerry- our pack was in almost the EXACT same situation, feeding into a dying troop. Our 'official pack policy' was that we encouraged Cubs to join our sister, but that it was the FAMILIES decision, not ours to make. We gave the sister troop every opportunity to 'sell itself' to us- inviting den chiefs, trying to arrange several inter-unit programs, etc. and the only troop we visited ON PACK TIME was our sister. We also met with the leaders to dioscuss our concerns and see what we could do to help without hurting ourselves. On the other hand, we gave parents a list of other local troops based on where the family lived, etc. and told them that they were always free to join any troop they wished- that it was more important to us that they continued in Scouting than that they joined any specific troop. Adult leadership is certainly a key, and we saw this as well- most DLs, etc. figure they served their time and are less interested in helping in Scouts. However- there are often parents that did not quite 'click' in Cubs but do great in a troop- look for these people and suggest they visit the troop as well! As a CM, your hands are already pretty full (unless you have a good replacement in the wings and plan on stepping up yourself soon!) You MAY want to check with the COR and see if they have any bright ideas. You can talk to the DE and commishes as well. I applaud your concern, and appreciate the dilemma you see yourself in. Good luck!

AwHeck- Supporting districts is a generally good thing, but I am trying hard not to go off on a rant about that! As far as 'supporting Scouts'... the '10 Questions' on the fund-raising form mentions "4 . If a commercial product is to be sold, will it be sold on its own merits and without reference to the needs of Scouting, either directly (during sales presentations) or indirectly ?" Fundraisers that attract more money than fair value because it 'supports Scouts' would seem to be in violation of this point.

When I was involved in Cub RT, we... SHORT announcements- we even used a timer. We gave guest speakers more leeway, but we really had to sit hard on DEs and district chairs- WOW could those guys talk! Also- NO verbal announcements of items on the newsletter! ABSOLUTELY keep joint meeting short. No one wants to sit through a buncha stuff that does not apply to them. RECOGNITION- we used beads for each meeting, excahnge 5 whites for a red, etc. Also used birthday beads, flag ceremony beads, etc. Pre-planned program, printed months in advance. Each month, we focused on a few things- up-coming events, how-tos, etc. By publishing them in advance, packs could send the right people ot the right meetings. Break-outs- related to the above, we also made sure we had DL, CM, Admin, and other breakouts each session- anyone could attend any group. Working the phone tree. We split up the district amongst us and each of us called a certain number of packs each month. Planning the spring 'drop off'. Our numbers always dropped in March to June, so we planned especially fun sessions then, with a strong summer and camping focus. We tried to get outdoors- model camps, dutch oven cooking, and so forth. 'Sparklers Practice'- we made SURE we 'tried out' skits, cheers, songs, and games each meeting. A few people resisted the 'silly stuff', but usually not for long! We also demonstrated different gathering activities each time. We did not do this, but another district did and had great luck with it- their RT was modeled on a pack meeting. When you signed in, you were assigned to a den randomly. The RT Chair was the CM, each den had a DL who as a staff member, etc. They ran the meeting like a pack meeting.

Packsaddle- Obviously it does not need to be a base, but old bases WOULD offer the benefit of water, power, and sewer infrastructures, as well as decent buildings in place, roads, parking, etc. Most bases are near enough a town to offer the same benefit you suggest as well. One thing to remember- if we can't do AP Hill in 2010, we only have 5 years to do any basic improvements needed, and I just think that a recently deserted base offers the best chance of that.

Personally, I've thought that popcorn violated the basic 'fair value' rule for years. If the BSA did not get a significant share, I doubt they'd be pushing the stuff. But, they DO get a share and WE get a share- and that screws up the costs. Our troop made more money faster selling much cheaper bags of beef jerky a local processor made up- lower price material (and delicious to boot!), but better profit margins to us. But, then again, I am more and more anti-fundraising (except for certain situations) as time goes on and my kid's schools and clubs do more, and I am hit by others more.

In a few forums, the size of a troop has been offered up as some sort of evidence that their program is working. Having been a member of a large but generally disfunctional unit, I doubted the truth of that from the beginning but did not think overly much about it- my solitary experience in this odd town does not mean much. Recently, however, I have noticed something. In the last month, I have been a part of a mega-church service, shopped at Wal-Mart and Cabelas, visited Mall of America, been to Miineapolis- a city more than 3 times the size of mine, and had some other experiences with big operations. I suddenly realized that none of them was really all that good. The mega stores did not offer the best prices or selection and virtually no customer service on the floor. The mega church was no more spiritual or powerful than my church and was WAY less social. Mall of America is pretty much a monument to a dying breed of shopping experiences and seems to be loosing occupants and customers. Big cities offer little benefit over smaller cities, especially considering the increased headaches (crime, congestion, dirt), most of my friends tell me how much they hate shopping at the local mega grocery store when all they really want is a few basics and a quick check-out experience, etc. It seems more like people ASSUME that 'bigger is better' so are drawn to the thing just because of size. Does this work with troops and packs as well? Does 'bigger = better' most of the time? I am NOT arguing that there is no benefit to size- each of my examples offered something the smaller versions could not. I am just wondering if we can use numbers alone to say that a troop of 100+ Scouts is better than a troop of 30? And... even if we do not necessarily believe it, will parents and others shopping for units think that?

It saddens me that there is a group within Scouting that would brand people with labels like gay or atheist for whatever reason, then try to keep them out or even kick them out. These are people who need Scouting or can give to Scouting as much as anyone else. Thank you for your story.

What we did included: 1. Really good rank award programs. We based ours on the Tribe of Webelos story and had Native American regalia, face painting, multiple parts- almost skit-like. We got the DLs and parents involved and had a great time. Invest in cool props (fake fire pit, interesting lighting or candle rack, etc.) to really help set the mood. Add music and other effects as well- pull out the stops! 2. Contests almost every meeting. It might be a game, it might be a cake auction, etc. but we tried hard to make sure we could involve EVERYONE who came- moms and dads and sisters, etc.! 3. Games are great! We did odd things like Potato Night- each Scout gets a spud and has a time to decorate it. Then each den sponsored a spud-based activity, like spud toss, spud bowling, etc. that the Cubs and audience did, moving station to station. We also did a Hot Wheels night (we bought the cars for the Scouts as Holiday presents, then let them race and play with them in various ways.) 4. Keep the boring stuff to a bare minimum, or find better ways to do it. Opening and closings can become routine, so shake them up. Use a newsletter and forbid announcing anything that shows up in it. If you HAVE to talk to the parents, do it while the Cubs are doing something else. 5. Recognition is a two-edged sword. None of us enjoy sitting though long recognition programs, but recognition is a key to success. Find ways to keep these interesting and moving along. Big awards and recognitions get Big Play (rank, knots, World Conservation Award, etc.) Small stuff gets done in groups more quickly (most pins, loops, and beads). Break up a long recogniiton program- small stuff, do something else, adult recognition, do something else, etc. 6. One HUGE trick I learned was 'Energy Management'. You can build energy up, you can calm energy down... but energy has a certain inertia and momentum. You cannot turn it on or off instantly- at least not too often. - Consider: most of us at some point in the meeting do something to make big energy- a fast song or hopping game. All to often, we then slam on the brakes- asking for quiet or holding up The Sign. Then, we try to rev things up again- and slam to another stop. - Instead, try to organize things more like a novel so you can build energy, then slide it down a bit, then build it BIG, then cool it off, hold it at a simmer, then calm down for the closing. - The big lesson for the CM here is that sometimes it is better to tolerate some noise and restlessness and keep the energy moving than to shut it off and get irritated when that does not work.

BIG ditto on Program Helps! You can use it as a 'follow the numbers' plan, or as an outline to follow then suppliment with your own ideas. My feelings on crafts, and I repeat that this is MY feeling, is that they are OK if they meet a few basic criteria... - Are fun to do. Some crafts are prety persnickity or tedious for this age group. - Serve a purpose. Teaching a new skill, like tool use- great! Items will be used in an upcoming skit- wonderful! Its a neckerchief slide (especially if it relates to the theme)- perfect! Serves a useful function in an attractive way- fantastic! - Fails the 'oh its so cute' test. It has been my experience that a lot of crafts are done because the leader thinks they are cute. This usually means they have no real purpose, and that the boys will gag on the idea. - Offers real variety. To you or I, a list of 20 craft ideas may seem greatly different, but all too often, the Scouts see 'just another craft'. - Stays far away from the 'cheapo gifts' arena. Mother's Day gifts made of pipe cleaners and macaroni are not generally the best use of the den's time. One other point about crafts is that they are by definition somewhat anti-creativity in that they are designed such that if you do the steps correctly, you get a pre-determined final product. I generally prefer to encourage activities that allow the Scouts to display more personal initiative and creativity. Like giving them a pile of stuff and challenging them to make a useful invention out of it, etc. Other suggestion in general: Get the book "What To Do Instead of Screaming" (Myra Nagel. 1980, Moore & Moore Inc. (83 pg.) About $6) I cannot recommend this book enough! Scout stores often have it (if not the BSA, the GSUSA shop!) Great book on den discipline, planning, programming, etc. I got a copy for each of our DLs and they loved it.

Because of the price point of the product, and because of what the product really IS, I think I'd approach this differently if I were you. Rather than youth groups with small pockets, I think I'd aim at schools, especially about 2nd to 4th grades. Contact a few schools around the country, send the class a free sample of the game, and let them play it in return for completing a survey. Before you do this, if you have not already, I'd also have some sample lesson plans written up on how to use the game in class. Teachers really like that. Good luck!

Ah, so this is less a 'will it work in my pack' question than it is a 'what do you think of our product' question? I think it looks like an OK game that appears to be well made, but $30 seems awfully high for most dens or packs for a game that is basically shuffleboard. Most packs are looking for ways to use the fewest pieces to play the most games- most have a 'game tub' of bean bags, marbles, etc. and looking for what can you play with this stuff. We know our Scouts get pretty bored with any one game so we value flexibility. I do not see your game offering that. I suspect any pack that sees your ad will quickly realize that for their purposes, they could make a good equivilant out of a sheet of cardboard and some big washers. They could then use the same washers for a washer toss game, magic tricks, Genius Kit, and more. Heck, your own website tells us how to make the game out of chalk and bottlecaps! (PS- you would have avoided the Spam remark had you been a little more clear that this was a commercial more than a question!)

I was on your side until you said "I can easily see the advantages of having a den of homeschooled boys, especially for Tigers. "Go-see-its" can be scheduled during the day, and can include the other kids in the family as a school field trip. The family activities can become part of the school day" Translation (in my mind): 'This group of boys could get to do things the other kids in the pack won't get to do.' It shifts from being a convenience for the parents to an unlevel playing field. It is tough enough to avoid the old 'how come THAT den gets to...' whine in a normal pack. However, I would look at the problem by asking the question 'how do I provide the best Scout program for the entire pack?' Does it help or hurt the pack to have a Spanish den? Pros- - Improved parental involvement and communications - Sense of community with each other - Increased membership/retention - Easier to explain what is going on, relating experiences, etc. - Helps overcome BSA's weakness in materials, etc. - Reduces the need for translators, etc. Cons- - Creates a certain 'us vs. them' atmosphere that must be guarded against. - Integration and cross-cultural experiences would be reduced - Reduces opportunities to learn Spanish (Continue the list on your own- this is just a start!) MY thinking would be that a seperate Spanish den could be a very good thing as long as steps were taken to make sure it was integrated into the pack otherwise- lots of inter-den activities, for example.

I agree- it sounds like he is in a nearly perfect place to be a PL or SPL to get things rolling. I guess I'd just ask him. I often find that I am creating problems where none may really exist- your son may have no qualms whatsoever about being the senior kid at first.

When I taught this, I used the '6P' format... 1.) Plan the Pack. Know what jobs you need. Get job descriptions written up (but not in stone!) Set caps on terms whenever possible (this is often defined by the job- a Pinewood chairperson might only be a 4 month job, while we asked for 2 years for DLs, CCs and CMs. 2.) Prepare and Preselect. Within your brainstorming circle, figure out who would work best in which positions. Why? Who has the best rapport and would be best to ask the target the big question? At some point, let the pack know that you are working on finding good people for the positions that are available. This is an FYI only- DO NOT try to ask for volunteers at this stage- no guilt trips, no pressures, nothing. Sometimes you'll get lucky and an interested parent will see you after the meeting to offer their services! 3.) Pitch the Proposals. Contact your selected targets. Tell them: - About the job - Why you think they would be perfect for the job - EXACTLY what the job entails, time, costs, training, etc. - Be sure to explain the importance of the job to the pack as a whole- put the job in context. One big goal here is NO SURPRISES. We do NOT want the person to say OK only to back out the next week when they learn about something we neglected to share. Also- BE SURE to let them know WHY you want THEM in the job- too their horn a bit, build them up- make them feel good. 4.) Percolate and Ponder. This is a tough step. In most cases, DO NOT press for an answer right away. Give them at least a couple days to think about it. Make an appointment to contact them at a convenient date for an answer. Thank them for listening and walk away. The thing here is that you want people who are committed because they WANT to help, not because they feel pressured or guilted into it, and this helps ensure the correct low pressure tone. 5.) Praise and Place. If they say yes, make a big deal about it at the next meeting, publically recognize and thank them. Also, get them trained ASAP and do what you need to get them into the position and running. They shold feel confident, cared for, and a part of the pack- not smothered or rushed, nor left to sink or swim. 6.) Prop and Preplan. Once a person is in place, treat them well. Treating them well goes a long way to make it easier to recruit the next person. Also, begin thinking about this person's replacement. It may seem early, but you never know what can happen. Try to encourage each person to have replacement in mind if something happens, or for them to mentor for next year.

If we HAVE to move it, this might have come at a good time... With all of the base closures going on, perhaps we could finangle it with some other groups to buy a closed base in the midwest to Rockys area. A recently abandoned military base would seem to offer most of facilities we would need with the least amount of work. Actually... if we had to do this, we MIGHT consider something like... - Locate it someplace that offers many opportunities in the area as well (mountains, kayaking, skiing, day trips or backpacking excursions, etc.) . - Relocate National there, as well as the ScoutStuff warehouse, Nat'l Scout Museum, etc. - Locate a high adventure base there - Create another training center to suppliment Philmont - Contract with the military to provide services at a reduced cost since it will offer them training and recruitment opportunities - Rent it out to other groups at other times of the year. Do the Girl Scouts have a high adventure opportunity or Jambo-like activity? How about other youth programs? Surely we could partner with someone or rig up some form of time-sharing.

Oh, boy! A chance to do my 'themes' speech! Using themes is a GREAT help, but one that most young leaders don't quite get at first. Once you learn it, however, it will make a world of difference! One day, one of my den leaders and I (the CC and ACM at the time) were talking about our son's upcoming birthdays. Since they are close together, we did them the same day. The boys suggested a Star Wars birthday (this was just after Episode One came out). The brainstorming started. They could make Light Sabres out of foam pipe insulation. We could make popcorn balls and stick Froot Loops on them and call them 'training droids' after the ball that Luke fights learning to us the force. Ice cream sandwiches dipped in chocolate shell as Jedi Power Bars, learning some magic tricks to simulate Jedi mind powers... Suddenly, the train jumped a track and the discussion became a 007 party! Then a WWII, then jets, then... As the boys were making these gradiose plans, I pulled the DL over and told her that we were seeing themes in the making! In less than 10 minutes, these two boys had almost completely outlined several months of activities- with almost no repeats of things to do! If you look at the Pack Meeting as being the actual party, and the meetings as the time to make the stuff, learn the tricks or skits, etc., you can see how easily you can use your den meeting time to have a lot of fun, do a lot of different things, visit a lot of different places (for the Star Wars theme, the local science museum, air force museum, or movie/tv studio are natual choices), and do a lot of other stuff. Now- the TRICK is that you look at what you are doing, and at the list of requirements, loops, electives, etc. and see what fits where. Tweak a few things if necessary for a better fit. Does the den meeting or month have to fit the theme 100% of the time? Heck no! Don't pass up on other things just because of the theme, and don't overwork the theme to the point of boredom. Tigers is a bit different because the book activities sort of act as themes themselves, but there is no reason to limit things to just those! Fill 12 months? Once you figure out the magic of good themes, the problem will be what to cut out to keep it realistic!

Remember- in a well-run Scout program, the badge does not signify ANYTHING on its own. Ther ONLY thing that deserves the recognition and hoopla is what it took for you to earn it. If the badge and title were the key issue, people would just buy them on eBay and skip the other stuff. Sure, a lot of people look at the badge and say 'gee, pretty!', but people who really understand what the Eagle means look at PERSON, not it, and think 'wow! This person put forth a lot of effort and sacrifice to earn this.' Its not the badge that impresses us- it is knowing what they did for it. Not make you a better person? Done right, sure it does! You are learning and PRACTICING leadership, self-reliance, the 12 Points of the Law and the 3 of the Oath. You can plan, shop for, and cook a meal. You'll run a project and supervise people. You'll have been in charge of and responsible for other people. You'll have learned at least 21 different areas of knowledge well enough to convince an expert in each to recognize you for that. You said your troop did all this, and indeed it did- but the Eagle award gives the troop's efforts and your participation a certain focus. You could coast- avoid leadership, mess around during classes, play football or your Gameboy during the entire camp, and so on and spend 5 years in Scouting- but you are not. Earning the Eagle to show others is a nice side effect, but the main person you earn it for is yourself- to show that you tested yourself against a set of standards that few people can measure themselves against, and you succeeded. It is a lot like a gold medal at the Olympics. Your coach, school, team, family, and others help you get close, and you could not do it without them, but it is you that does not give up. The shiney medal is cool, and gives you something to aim for, but it is the feeling of accomplishment- the knowledge of what you did that is the real reward. It is tough to earn the Eagle when school, work, social life, sports, etc. get involved in your life and the pressure is part of the whole thing- we know what you are going through, and we know it can be done. You are the one who has to decide if it is worth it to you.

Different approaches work better for different people. One possibility might be to look at it from his point of view. He's worked hard- probably these last several months have felt joyless with all the pressures of school, work, etc. The work to get Eagle is just one more brick in what he obviously feels is a heavy load. I might suggest that he ease up in Scouts a bit. Let it become fun for him again. No more badges, no more of the things that cause him distress. Maybe he could help teach the new Scouts or take on a project that interests him instead of other troop duties. Or, just work with you to craft a new possible project- one that better reflects his interests. Give him a chance to catch his breath and review his options- without chasing him out of the unit. Let him alone for a bit (and try to get his parents on board). I know all the adults will be chomping on the bit over every 'wasted' second- those projects have a way of taking more time than the Scout thinks, and processing the paperwork takes time he does not have a lot of either. On the other hand, if he gets a chance to get back to what he loves about Scoutiing, he might reattack the project with a vengence and stay well after his COH. It does not always work- but with the right person, it does pretty well.

Round here, several smaller councils have been absorbed by bigger ones. It may be because of geography and logistics, but I don't see this as a particuarly good thing for either party involved. I agree that we need a re-think, but I tend towards the other direction... the Confederate model rather than the Federal model. Instead of National trying to make policies that apply from the dusty Texas plains to inner-city LA to rural outstate Nebraska to our two non-continental states, I'd rather see a lot of that power reside more in the region and council level. National sets the basic standard, the local authorities decide how it is implimented. National says 21 MBs for Eagle, with some from a specific pool. Locals decide which ones from the pool fit their needs. National says what the uniform is for national events. Locals use this as the basis for variants that fit local needs and availability. National gives training outline and goals, local builds on this and tailors training for thier needs. National sets G2SS standards, from tent size to YPT to travel policies. Local build on this and add wherever needed to meet local conditions and laws.

Been there- Cajun, you are just not having the greatest year of Scouting so far, are you? My sympathy! OK, my plan would be... 1.) Document and send her a registered letter politely requesting the money, or asking to arrange for a meeting with the CO or another more neutral party to discuss the issue. If she flatly refuses, go to plan B. 2.) Go ahead and talk to someone (CO, local police, legal-aid lawyer, law school advice line, etc.) about legal options... but I think that most of these will end up costing you more than you've lost already. DO NOT threaten this to her however, unless you are 100% willing to go through with it. 3.) Re-think the fundraisers and pack budget. There are other options available that work better than candy sales. This is a good time of year for some re-tooling. Our pack charged dues (repayable from the Scouts own fundraising efforts) and enjoyed several short-term (usually one day or less) fundraisers that were comparatively quick and painless- but a lot of fun!

If you'll be in the public eye a decent portion of the hike, the uniform is a great PR device. We usually requested that the Cubs leave the things that can fall off easily at home- pins, belt loops (don't ask!), buttoned-on things, etc. Pack T-shirts are also a great idea. With a small pack, you can jsut use one of the BSA t's if you want and iron on a pack number on the sleeve or something.

In 1917 Britian (and indeed, in many other times and places), one could make statements that make religion a key part of the fundemental 'way things are'. The question really is does it still achieve anything for us to say that today? What does the BSA GAIN by barring people of specific beliefs? (Most notably atheism, but I have also seen pagans and other faiths claim that they are also shunned by the BSA.) We include Universal/Unitarians. We welcome people who have never opened a religious book or stepped in a place of worship, or said a real prayer in their life- but as long as they check off SOMETHING as a religion, we are OK with it. A Scout who has been a good leader and mentor can be kicked out for simply sharing that he thinks that there is not a god? He does not need to behave immorally or against the other 11 Laws- but he is out as far as some segments of Scouting are concerned? IF religion REALLY WERE a key factor in life and success, would we not WELCOME atheists with open arms to SHOW them what they are missing by the examples of our own lives?? Sorry- soapboxing again!