madkins007

Bob, This is off topic and refers back to the bit about volunteer input. I am just seeking information here, not carrying on a debate. I was under the impression, from PTC sessions, etc. but nothing I can find in print, that the BSA usually assembled focus groups or temporary committees from unit and district volunteers. I was also under the impression that they monitored feedback and general opinions in a variety of ways (including lurking on websites and the Scout-L list). Supposedly, uniforming, advancement, new badges, Cub themes, and more were the results of this sort of process. Are you saying it does not happen, or that it does not happen in a way that we in the trenches need worry about, or what? And, is this based on knowledge or opinion? Again, I am NOT trying to start a debate or anything, just seeking clarification for myself.

Ed, The old 'abortion is murder' phrase is in itself technically inaccurate since murder is the ILLEGAL taking of a life (OK, some definitions say 'wrongful', but most of those definitions then define wrongful as 'illegal'). As long as it is not against the law, it is not murder. By the same token, war, eating beef, and capital punishmnet is not murder. This does not necessarily mean any of this is right, just, or ethical. My big problem with the pro-life movement relates back to my earlier comment. The movement seems totally wrapped up in focusing on the unborn child. They rarely show the same levels of concern for the mother facing the difficult choice, or for the workers often struggling with their conscience anyway, etc. I always wondered what Jesus thought of the idea of only looking at the needs of the unborn and ignoring the needs of the others present. (As for me, I'd love to see a law that said 'no abortion after a heartbeat is detected' except for extreme situations. I know neither side would be happy, but it seems to be a livable solution.)

We just got back from a camping/cabining vacation. A few years ago, I would have been in the 'no tech' or 'minimal tech' camp (pun, ha!), but this year we took the iPod, wireless laptop with DVD, PDAs, and cell phones. The biggest boon was something to do on the long drive up and back, but even in camp I noticed that, judiciously used, the electronics were helpful. We even looked for wifi access in towns to do some quick surfing (our sites did not have this benefit!) Electronics were used for: - Playing soft music to aid sleep (covering the unfamiliar noises early in the trip) - Playing games/watching DVDs, usually in the after supper period when we were in a 'lazing'' mood. - Keeping journals and downloading photos. One of the kids made a quickie presentation of each day. Nice way to recap the daily events! - Electronic versions of game, books, maps, etc. We usually haul a TON of this stuff, but the electronic versions were nice and light! - Guides- we downloaded a bunch of maps, attractions data, recipies, bird lists, etc. to refer to. it was great having so much data packaged so conveniently! - Walkie-talkies. Cell phones are a pain, but they make great walkie talkies when in range. Its also nice to know you can phone home or for help easily.

I do not recall that it says a vote every year. In most units I know of, it is done when there is a major change of other policies or leadership.

I had a 'bonus box' that I kept stocked with patches (other CSPs, etc.), candy and packaged snacks, odd stuff I'd find in clearance bins and at dollar stores, etc. I also asked other adults to contribute stuff when they ran across it. Stuff has included: Small green 'Scout' army men (Oriental Trading Company/Nobbies), compasses, caps, T-shirts, carabiner key rings, small flashlights (favorites!), light sticks, jerky (another big hit!), keychains, notepads, pens, bandanas, mini-tool kits... We used it for contest and contest prizes, etc. The standard bit was the top prize was something cool (from the box or not), 2nd place was your choice from the box, 3rd place was my choice from the box.

I was thinking about the same as Eamonn. You don't know the Scout well enough to know if this is part of a history, or a horrible choice of an otherwise good kid. Hopefully his unit knows him better and will make the right choices. You certainly can write a letter to the advancement board, and if you feel strongly about this, you SHOULD write. I was not a sterling example of humanity in the years just before my own Eagle. I was a good kid overall (especially in public!), but there are some things I did that while not (quite) felonious were really, really bad choices. Some were illegal, some just unScout-like, and all are massively embarrassing to reflect upon.

"""I wonder what would happen if at Council and District meetings if we members had to drop and perform push-ups for any and all construed lack of results, follow-through, missed meetings, lack of uniform,late arrivals, etc?" Great object lesson. Bet they wouldn't show up for the next meeting late or out of uniform or at all! And maybe that would be a good thing. "" Its the 'or not at all' part that worrys me! I can't think of a lot of Scouters I have worked with and respected that would put up with that (beyond a superficial degree- you know, like as a gag, etc.)

So... IF we (the BSA) would decide against push-ups, what other forms of consequence could we come up with for lateness, uniforms, and similar infractions? My first thought is a cleaning detail after the meeting- but this is also a job that needs to be done if there are any infractions or not so might be best suited to patrol rotation. Extra cleaning jobs 'above and beyond' like mopping would be nice- not too dificult, and great PR that the place is extra clean sometimes. You could always keep a 'job list' at hand of things that can be done by those needing 'something to do', perhaps during a game, etc. Washing out some old Dutch ovens, inventory of MB books, etc. Exclusion from certain activities- flag ceremonys, some games, gathering activities, etc. is always an option- but not always a strong consequence. Reversing the program and rewarding timliness and uniforming is an option as well- points for uniforms and being on time, with points being redeemable for something later can work as well. I personally prefer rewarding good behavior to punishing bad, but both have thir place!

EagleDad- I'm with Hunt. I like the hike. It was not strenuous, or accompanied by browbeating/yelling, etc. It gav the Scouts a chance to burn off some excess energy and learn something new. Combined with reflection, I'd say it was an A+ job!

In our society, there are people who CANNOT be 'slammed' in any way without the slammer looking bad. This includes most people and belief systems. There are some groups that can be bashed pretty much at will for one reason or another. Fundamentalist Christians and white guys top the list... and the BSA is full of both. I think one reason it IS ok to slam these is because of a certain amount of historical arrogance they foisted off on everyone else. We as Christians HAVE come across as smug, condescending, hateful, bigoted, etc. All to often, we have let our baser emotions run rampant for all to see. I think this speaks poorly of our ability to actually LIVE our faith. We yell and carry signs when we should be serving people. We bulldoze over other people's beliefs to advance our own rather than seeking to understand them and showing how our beliefs can help them grow to what they want to be. We scream about so and so's sin while blithely ignoring our own worse offenses. We often justify our actions with phrases like 'doing God's work', 'righteous anger', 'we know we are being persecuted for our faith', and 'answering to a higher authority'... but often these are just smokescreens to hide behind. Personally, I think we believers need to take a note out of the book "In His Steps" by Charles Sheldon- the origin of the idea 'what would Jesus do?' and rethink the ways we do a lot of things- starting with blindily swallowing church doctrine as if it was Holy Writ.

Bob White... 'If 'they' come up with a policy, 'we' have to suck it up or leave' type statements suggest that the BSA is run without any volunteer Scouter input. I was under the impression that most decisions were made by committees or focus groups of mostly volunteers?

Our pack's policy (paraphrased): Annual dues are $XX a year. This covers registration, insurance, Boy's Life, all awards, general pack overhead, Pinewood cars, den dues, and more. We will not ask for any other pack monies through then year except for camp dues, admission fees, or other special costs for optional events or activities. You are still responsible for uniforming costs, and are free to purchase the few awards a Cub can earn that our pack does not provide. (Example: we only provide Sports and Academic pins and loops for awards earned as a den activity. If your family earns them seperately, you are free to buy them on your own.) $YY [about $2/month] of your dues will be given to the den leader for running their den. They may ask for other amounts throughout the year as needed for special projects or events but this will be rare. You can earn the dues through some of our pack fund-raisers. In some of our fund raisers, the Scout earns their own money that can be used for dues, camping fees, etc. Dues are due before the next pack meeting (after a full month of regular meetings). You can pay it in installments as long as it is paid in full by the pack meeting, and you pay at least $15 upon registration. This is to help us be able to pay for all of the things that come up early in the Scouting year, including the awards he will earn soon! Part of the dues are pro-rated. We will take $ZZ off every month after December 1st up until July 31st. The program year starts again in August when school starts up. Refunds? Sorry, but except for some special situations, our pack does not offer refunds. Nor can we 'pay back' dues that were paid originally, but you now wish to cover with fundraising income. We established this policy for many reasons... - get a good cash flow in the early part of the programming year, when you need it the most. - free den leadership from taking or tracking dues. - annual polls of the parents show they prefer this approach to weekly or monthly dues, or to using more fundraisers tocover costs (even though this was a lower-income pack!) - one time we kept the Pinewood Derby cars and some other things (not awards) hostage against a 'non-paid dues' family, but they had several other issues so ended up leaving anyway.

Making flags is a great team-building exercise when you can figure out a way to involve everyone. Our pack gave each den an 'official' flag, and encouraged a den-made flag. It was the denner's job to tote the made flag, and the assist. denner's job to tote the official flag. They usually loved it!

Take any decal, bumper sticker, etc. you like, and stick it to a sheet of flexible magnet stuff you can get at most craft shops. The adhesive side of the decal against the adhesive of the magnet. It works great, and depending on the weight of the decal, even holds up to road speeds!

So what do we think so far overall? Most forms of discipline involve some form of power, which is not automatically a bad thing when not abused or misused. Actions do and should have consequences. Natural consequences are better, but artifical consequences work. Flogging is unacceptable. Push-ups seem to fall in a grey area where some think they definately qualify as hazing, coporal punishment, etc., but others do not. Push-ups and similar punishments are rarely seen outside the military, sports, and some Scout units for behavior correction. Push-ups do not seem to be clearly and unambiguously addressed in Scouting (unless you are of the camp that sees it as corporal punishment). Just FYI- here is a quickie article about punishments in schools... http://www.nospank.net/n-k42.htm And just to toss another log in the fire, this article specifically identifies push-ups as corporal punishmnet as defined by the Calif. State Attorney General... http://www.pesoftware.com/Resources/exercise.html

Merlyn... *sigh* That is certainly true. As with any large organization, sometimes our supporters are our worst advertising. On a slightly different note... do ANY of the current merit badges require a belief in evolution to complete? I don't have my book handy, but a quick scan of some of the science/nature badges on-line does not seem to show anything like that. And- an anti-science MB? Would it include things like believing in ghosthunting (EMP, 'white noise', etc.), aliens, phone psychics, and so on as well?

Other ideas to consider along with the other great advice... 1. Roundtable. Most districts offer them, and they will be covering almost all of your questions soon. 2. With 45 boys, you have a medium pack and certainly should have a solid pool of potential leaders. You need to find a way to recruit more of them- and your most vital task may be to locate someone to do that job for you! Certainly the CC or COR should be doing some of it, but it sounds like that is not a great option for you (reading between the lines!) YOU do not have to do the recruiting, all you have to do is ot make certain someone is doing it, and doing it well. There are a LOT of BAD ways to do this. One idea to try, building on CM Mike's bit is to register FAMILIES, NOT Scouts! Make sure each parent understands, from Day 1, that they WILL be expected to pitch in. They can sign up now, or someone will be calling them. Reassure them that this does not mean a huge, pyramid-building type task and we want to use people's natural interests and skills. It is just more fun and fair if everyone shares the load! (We always had sign-up sheets for known committees and jobs at registration day. You did not have to sign up at that time, but it acted as a nice visual reminder of the idea!)

Hazing: "To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks." (Dictionary.com) Hazing can happen in an initiation (and is the 2nd definition), but it can happen at other times. I think push-ups for lack of uniforming clearly counts in this defition. The task is meaningless (insofar as it teaches no new skills and is not a natural consequence of the infraction), difficult, and humiliating when done before the other Scouts. By the way, 'to persecute' means "1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs. 2. To annoy persistently; bother." Which seems to apply well here as well. Now, let's ask ourselves WHERE this practice came from. Schools? Work sites? The military seems to be the source of the idea. Why does the military do it? Are they trying to produce "young men of character"? Not during basic training. They do it to humiliate, break down, teach blind obedience, and solidify the absolute superiority of the leadership. If your unit uses this sort of activity, you better have a real killer program- otherwise you'll just teach Scouts running late or with a sock in the wash to just stay away instead of suffering the punishment. I also wonder... which part of the Scout Law, Scout Oath, Aims and Methods, or other elements of the program covers or permits punishing Scouts?(This message has been edited by madkins007)

Somehow this sounds horribly like a dunking booth to me. Must just be some sort of flashbacks! My fave way to promote sales is to offer free samples. Get some small paper cups and offer people a chance to TASTE chocolate popcorn- often leads to a sale, and it is one of the few things they can't buy in the Safeway cheaper. I also like doing things like showing off Scouting skills that involve sight, smell, motion, and interaction. Dutch oven cooking (kettle corn?) is great for this and pretty easy to do in a parking lot. Get the crowd nearby for other reasons and 'just happen' to have something to sell as well! (Might be a recruiting tool too!)

There are a lot of things I was taught the Bible 'said', that upon better research on my part have tuned out to be untrue and instead were the 'spin' put on it by someone for whatever reason. I am willing to re-reseach these passages in that light as well, but I admit that I have always thought about the same as Ed, etc. have stated. However... I DO notice ONE little detail... Homosexuality is called an 'abomination'. Proverbs 6 says this about other abominations: "16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren." (New King James Version). This list does not include remarriages (Deut 24:4), women wearing men's clothing (Deut. 22:5), Churches often elevate homosexuality to a very 'high' sin- and somehow 'forget' that God has placed other things on the same list. Churches may exclude or remove homosexuals- but when was the last time you heard of a church taking action against a liar or a person with a 'proud look'? IF we want the BSA to use God's standards (no atheists, no homosexuals, no abominations) should we then not also eliminate the proud, liars, divorcees, cross-dressers (and isn't the female version of the uniform awfully masculine?) How do we justify banning one abomination while tolerating others?

Merlyn- I am against the ban on atheists as well, but equating all Christians with creationists is about as hateful and non-productive as any other form of stereotyping. I have to admit that I am a bit confused by Mr. Johnson's thought process... A boy in the Scouts becomes an atheist at least in part due to what he learned in SCHOOL, but the BSA should have done something to 'protect' him from that? Somehow this seems to him to be a natural outgrowth of our DRP? I believe that it is the church's and parent's job to deal with issues like that, not the BSA. (As an aside... Mr. Johnson still thinks Haeckel's stuff has any validity? It would be funny if it were not so sad.)

Den chiefs... I know I've heard that term before, but I am not sure I've ever seen one! Seriously. I've only worked with three den chiefs- in my experience, all were there for the leadership requirement, not to help the den and I had to ask 2 not to come back (upon request of the DL involved). When I worked with a large troop, they had 1 (yes, ONE) Den Chief out of about 100 boys. I know there are logistic issues involved (a second meeting per week, getting there, training- both for the Den Chief AND the DL!), but I am often saddened by the lack of enthusiasm I see for this position. Personally- I'd advertise my need for DCs to my sister troop and other nearby units and figure out what to do with them when and if they showed!

As a leader, you can mix and match all you want within the basic rules. On a practical level, I wore a single pin on blue- quick and simple in keeping with the 'clean uniform' policy. Besides, it was easier to take off and reinsert each time I washed the shirt! As for what constitutes a 'year' for perfectionists- think of it as more of a 'program year' than a calendar year. These are meant to show about how long you've been a Scout, not a legal contract. It can get confusing if you try to make it too specific, so just 'go with the flow'. Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelos could count as a year each. In the Boy Scouts, they generally get a new year whenever the troop awards them. Some troops do it on the anniversary of joining (my fave). Others do it as a group at one COH or another. It usually averages out about the same.

{Required statement of disclosure: I am NOT a big fan of many aspects of districts or councils.} I would schedule district or higher events based SOLELY on their value to my unit. Our district ran some pretty cool things. We owe a certain debt to the district and council, but that does not include blind attendance at events- including the unending meetings you can easily get sucked into. At one point we looked at our calendar- and noticed how much time was getting sucked up by district/council events- fall camporee, Popcorn sales, food drive, winter camporee, spring camporee, conclaves, sporting events... all good and worthwile- but did we need or want to plan our calendar around the 'left-overs'? Other than the food drive, we left the rest of it up to the Scouts to determine. Generally, it gave us a great back-up plan if we could not come up with another good monthly activity. My view is that THE best reason for Camporees is the inter-unit element- show and tells, bonding, competing against other troops (with ought to build comaraderie in yours!) One of my FAVORITE things to do on a camporee is to wander from campsite to campsite just before a meal and see what others are cooking and how. Incredible ingenuity and skill out there!

It DOES occur to me that you can create a good consequnce for uniforming glitches by making it known that "Scouts in full uniforms will be excused from [clean-up detail] after the meeting." This of course assumes that the leadership or some other group will do the cleaning if there is 100% uniforming. You can replace the phrase in [brackets] with whatever makes sense for your group. For us, it was putting away tables and chairs when there were several non-uniformed Scouts. It morphed to 'sweeping' when more Scouts wore uniforms.