madkins007

I used to work in a Scout council office, and know many people with far better access than I had. Based on what I know and have heard, the problem of inflated figures seems to be rather widespread and based on pressure from pretty high levels. Unfortunately, the BSA as a business is subject to a lot of the same problems other businesses of its size and worth have, Scout Law or not.

re: Boer War woodsmanship- outdoors techniques used during the South African conflicts that Baden-Powell became a hero during. That is, things like axe use, firebuilding, cooking over camp fires, many pioneering projects, etc. that today range from being 'quaint' to contrary to current outdoor ethics. Axe use is an example. First, in many places there are 'no open fires' policies, 'no wood gathering' policies, or no available firewood. Next, it is generally a lot safer and more efficient to cut wood to length with saws and use wedges and mallets (or hand axes and pounding tools) to split it to size. I think it is pretty cool to know how to do a lot of this stuff... but then again, I still like the idea of a signalling requirement for First Class!

I agree. I also think that this is a great example of why a unit needs a good network of leaders. If your 'perfect' CM/SM has weaknesses, ideally an assistant or committee member is available ot support it. It would be nearly impossible to find a person who is good with the Scouts, knowledgeable in all things outdoors, fantastic at planning, tops in recruiting (youth and adults), on top of the paperwork, etc., etc., etc. On the other hand, pretty much each of these elements is a duty shared by someone else in a well-structured unit. In some ways, the CM/SM job is almost a puppet dictatorship with much of the work being done by others behind the scenes to make the leader and the entire unit look good.

FScouter said: "I see no purpose in categorizing unless one's intent is to ignore those in a particular category." That implies that everything published in the leader books, etc. is meant as gospel truth- that you have to run a meeting exactly the way specified, that the committee positions are set in stone, etc... It also implies that the leader in question is setting out to flout the rules. I think the reality is that the BSA recognizes that not all units can be run the same cookie cutter way and that units need and deserve a bit of discretion when it comes to many elements of the program with the leader's intention of offering a better program with the resources they have. Personally, I think the BSA would be better off if it clarified/streamlined/emphasized the actual rules a bit more so we would have fewer leaders who are confused on such things. I know we have all heard leaders in training or at roundtable ask things like 'why tour permits', 'you mean I gotta do a permit for THAT?', 'why can't we just sell [fill in the blank] for our fundraising?', 'what do you mean I can't plan a paintball game?' and so on. We load leaders up with piles of books and handouts, weekends full of training, and all the resources of fellow Scouters, and they STILL often don't know what are rules, what are suggestions, and what are opinions.

Uniform is a good example. Wearing one or not is a GUIDELINE. HOW to wear it is a RULE. The uniform is one of the legally protected emblems of the program, and the BSA has the right and obligation to enforce certain standard to keep it protected. It is sorta like you don't HAVE to drive a car, but if you do, you HAVE to drive it according to the rules. The insignia guide, therefore, is full of the rules for wearing the uniform correctly. Another missed source of rules would be the various applications, tour permits, fundraising permits, etc. Each of these lists some of the concrete rules the BSA operates under for safety, liability, or to protect the image. The handbooks are a mix of rules, suggestions, and tried and true tricks. It can be tricky sometimes telling which is which but most are pretty clear as to which category they fall in.

Cubmaster Mike said "There are a lot of electives and missed opportunities if we did not have a book." It wasn't hard to put the requirements for every elective on a sheet of paper, nor was it difficult to offer handouts for things like blueprints, recipies, etc. when the info was helpful. We were even able to do things like offer a sheet of common local backyard birds to help with identification.

Get the book "What To Do Instead of Screaming" (Myra Nagel. 1980, Moore & Moore Inc. (83 pg.) About $6) EXCELLENT resource with some FANTASTIC points! Our Scout Shop carried it and I personally bought one for each den leader and pushed it mercilessly at training. If your Scout Shop does not have it, try other youth groups stores, like the GSUSA. Some examples of her ideas: Variety- no activity should be longer than a few minutes, and there should be a lot of things going on one after the other. If a youth does not like the current activity, another will follow in a few minutes. Overplan- if your meeting is 1 hour, plan enough stuff for 2. You won't use it all (and what is not used can carry over to future meetings), and with extra stuff, if a planned activity fails to excite the Scouts, you've got another ready to pull out! Canned meetings- have at least one meeting that is kept in a bag- a script, all props and tools, etc. are in a bag or box and ready to go. Use it on the days you don't feel well, you need someone else to fill in at the last minute, etc. She has a LOT of other ideas- all worth a try.

Boy am I gonna get it for this! In our pack, we basically did away with the handbooks. Each boy had a folder with photocopied pages of the requirements (and some other stuff- calling list, calendar, uniform guide, etc.). There was one page for the Rank, and a couple pages for that rank's Arrow points, as well as pages for other awards and activities. At each meeting, the boy dropped the folder off with the assistant den leader, who transcribed the data to Packmaster or the den record book. Book ownership was optional, and if a boy lost the folder, he was only out the last week's worth of data. We kept a lot of spare copies of the blank pages around, and printed out personal reports monthly. We also used the photocopies as a way to let parents know what was expected at home as well- we just highlighted the things the Scouts needed to do and have parents sign off on. The system worked well for us. If I was going to do it over however, I'd get some of those pocket calendars (the thin give-a-way kinds) and format everything to fit in them so it was more pocket-sized and portable. Folders being left in odd places was our biggest weakness- about the same number as books left behind when we used them!

Mark- in a lot of ways, I agree with you. Life in Scouting would be a lot easier if we had 'the uniform' and maybe an optional unit T-shirt (no pants requiremnt) for camping, etc. As a youth, all I recall is the basic uniform, and a dressier version of it for Courts of Honor (sash, medals, all the pins you usually don't wear cuz they get lost, shined brass, etc.) Hunt- no apologies needed. I was just thinking about the most common varients I have seen in various units. Our cub pack, for example, TOLD Scouts who choose to wear the uniform to school to NOT wear neckerchiefs or any 'pin-ons' at the request of the teachers (too many falling slides, etc.! Another differetn thread, tho). I also agree that 'field' and 'activity' are... shall we say 'odd' choices for uniform names. If anything, since the program is SUPPOSED to be an activities program, the normal uniform might well be the 'activity' uniform and the other the 'field' uniform since it is most common 'in the field'.

Seattle- not only was I on Roundtable staff and Training, I was also an employee of the district for some time. Our Boy Scout camp IS great, but the question was asked form the point of view of Cub Scout parents, and the formerly beautiful camp used by Cubs has not had a lot fo money put into it since I was a youth and camped there. Many of our parents who went out to CS camp were shocked by the condition. As an employee, I learned about a lot of things that happened that both shocked me silly (or infuriated me) and impressed the daylights out of me- about what you'd find in most any business, I guess. I am just frustrated that the paid pro who most needs to be able to answer the question used weasel answers instead of having solid info. I have worked with some truely wonderful DEs who performed miracles on their rather pitiable pay, but a lot of them were... well, I'm sure every council has a few that are not to that standard!

Unfortunately for him, the attendence pin is done on a unit by unit basis with no national standards, or even a requirement that units participate in it. You can ask one of the troop's adult leaders about the policy of the troop and see what they do. If you like, you can also try to become a member of the committee and help craft a policy if one does not exist.

Learn to be a better go-between between national/Council and the units. About all we hear from District is that we need to raise/pay more money, get more Scouts, do more paperwork, etc., etc., etc. Recruting Night, Popcorn Sales, FOS pitch, summer camp (in your own council, please!), etc. We all know that if we offer a strong program, our units will grow. If our units grow, the Council grows- and I wish the District would talk to us about it like that. It usually comes off as an 'add boys at all costs!' message that sounds more mercenary than helpful. In our district, at least, they also need to get better at being able to answer a few basic questions well. At one time, I was talking to our DE and he was pressing me about FOS. Now- in the THREE previous years, we bent over backwards to accomodate this program and yet no one EVER came over to do the pitch and it was sorta bugging me. So, I told him that since he was short handed for that, I'd do it myself but I need to know what to tell the parents the money was for- why should CUB SCOUT parents support the district? What did it do for them? Well, he started to list the reasons- Training. Nope- I was the CS training chair at the time and the District AND the Council helped me not at all- in fact, they put up barriers and REQUIRED me to take in more money than I needed to give them a cut (which REALLY stuck in my craw! We USED to be able to do free training with a few donations to cover coffee and copying.) Summer camp- Our CS camp was in deplorable condition and the BS camp was sparkling new. The CS camp director was really hot over a lot of this sort of thing and laughed when I told her about this answer. Our council also did not offer camperships for CS camping. Salaries and Overhead- He did not really have a good answer when I asked what the paid Scouters in the area did for *my unit* to justify the pay. No paid pro had ever been to one of our meetings and I know they don't put in a ton of time locally on the CS program (whether they SHOULD is a different discussion!) Uniform bank- This was stretching it! The 'bank' uses donated uniforms, is not available for Cubs locally, and even the Boy Scouts can only get them if they are in a certain district. It is also almost totally run by volunteers. District and Council-wide Cub events- I KNOW volunteers set up most of the programs, they certainly RUN them! When I asked for specifics that the paid staff set up or ran, he hemmed and hawwed. Now- I am a big fan of the BSA being lean and mean when it comes to paid staff, but I know they serve vital roles. I just wish this guy could have answered this basic question better.

I think at least PART of this discussion has to include HOW and WHAT you pack to start with. A lot of stuff comes to us massively overpackaged and pretty much everything we pack needs to be considered and usually repalced to make it a.) safe to carry, b.) minimize weight, and c.) easy to deal with the waste. For example- packing out the Mylar bags a lot of trail meals comes in- piece of cake! They are pretty dry and clean after being emptied. Ditto for plastic bags used for dry stuff. I think that this is an important part of LNT camping- looking at each and every thing and figuring how you'll get it back out of there. Heck, one of my kids practiced 'compacting' for weeks at home based on their experience packing out EVERYTHING at Philmont! (Its a lot of fun to watch them compress an entire picnic's worth of stuff into a paper drink cup!)

The 'baby sitters of America' thread mentioned that the issue of parental involvement is an ancient one, and that reminded me of this uniform thread. Scouts and leaders have complained about the uniform since 1910! One thing I find interesting in the BSA's uniform issue is that over the years, the most consistant aspects of the debate has been that National has always felt that the uniform should be 'top to bottom', that you always (well, not in the very beginning) had to buy it from them, and that it was always pretty 'non-participatory' (not designed by surveys, etc., but by rather remote committes, unlike the newest UK uniform.) Bu thte good news is that it DOES change sometimes, and most often for the better (especially if we ignore the rather unfortunate mid-70's uniform!) and the changes are usually based on feedback.

"Baby Sitters of America" was a common term even in the mid-60's. I heard it a lot at grade school, usually used by other kids towards Scouts. I agree that the basic issue of parental involvement is equally old. I remember my dad as a Scoutmaster being ticked about the fact it was the same 'old boys network' that went on every activity and the rest of the parents did squat. For various reasons, I was involved in 5 troops as a youth and each had some degree of this.

Not sure if it would apply under the guidelines for Woodbadge, but... Locally, we have many festivals and holidays celebrating different heritages. What if every month or so, your pack had an outing to one of these to see how other groups live? We have Czeck fests, Italian fests, German fests (Oktoberfest!), African-American fests, various Hispanic fests, various Oriental fests, American Indian Pow-Wows and more, and Omaha just isn't that big or diverse a town. There are also dozens of holidays you can explore, from Kwanza to Chinese New Year. Most worship houses of other faiths would welcome you to many of their events with open arms. Also- most towns have SOME sort of organizations dedicated to helping people from other heritages, including things like organizations for people with disabilities, embassys, etc. I don't know how many you'd have to hit to meet the spirit of Woodbadge, but I think it would be enough fun if properly planned to make it a whole 'side program'- aim for hitting one of these evernts every couple months or so.

If the boys had independent means to make the meetings, I would agree. As it is, boys who have family problems, poor family support, and the like will almost automatically not earn it- and not due to anything THEY did or did not do. If it is not penalizing them then it is some other form of stacking the deck against them. Again- this was OUR opinion (as a committee and leadership team). Not everyone will agree, which is why it is an optional, unit-level program! One of our issues was a few single parent families. In one, the mom was struggling with cancer and often did not have the strength to make meetings. Her son would never earn ANY attendence-based awards even though we tried to help her in as many was as we could (one of our members drove her kids as often as possible, but since she often had to change her plans at the last minute, that did not help much. We also respected her privacy and did not share her struggles outside of a small circle, as requested.) Another couple was going through a divorce and our meeting night was one of the 'other person's custody' nights. Attending meetings was not high on their list of priorities when they only saw their son a few times a week- even though both supported Scouting. We felt we could either write the rules to be so flexible that pretty much everyone earned the award, OR write in some sort of really open-ended 'excused absence' policy, or just forget the entire thing. We were just a small pack in a decent neighborhood in the Midwest- and we had this sort of thing going on.

Packsaddle said "I really try to wear my uniform correctly. And yet, there is a nagging thought in mind at all times - if the uniform Nazis put me under the 'microscope', they'd probably find something wrong." I can attest to that. During training, our own local uniform Nazi would proudly display their uniform, and I usually had no problem finding a flaw of some sort in it. Some of the pictures of the Chief Exec. have shown him in a uniform that if not technically incorrect was at least in a grey area. Many of the pictures in Scouter magazine show professional Scouters with uniform errors- usually pretty minor. Do the flaws bother me? Not as long as the uniform looks good and its no big deal. I try to keep mine right, but I'm probably wrong with something as well. I try REAL HARD to not be a uniform cop in the real world!

Eaglescout2004- I know what you mean, and I can't knock the desire to show off the badges Scouts work so hard for, but the policy makes sense to me. a.) Braggin' rights- your fellow Scouts pretty much know what you earned and most people are more impressed with the rank than the MBs. Besides, the times you most WANT to brag it up, you can! b.) Keeping the uniform uncluttered and functional- this is one of the first things the Insignia Guide says. It is really, really easy to clutter the uniform up and the sash can be a big piece of clutter- especially if flopped over a belt. c.) Right wearing- flopping the MB OR OA sash over the belt means that 1/2 of it is hidden and the rest is upside down. That's just not right- although it is pretty obsessive of me to think that probably!

Our pack skipped the award entirely. While this was just OUR opinion, we felt it penalized Scouts when they are 100% dependant on their parents to attend. In our view, the pin relfected the parent's priorities more than the Scout's interest. Besides- our operational budget was pretty 'lean and mean' most years! ;-)

"In uniform" and "out of uniform" is accurate, but not what the post was about. Functionally, we have several versions of the uniform based on the situation. All I was doing was looking at what they might be. It DID occur to me that it might be nice to have some shorthand way to communicate to the Scouts and parents what uniform is expected for the day ("Remember, next week we'll have visitors, so wear your 1A's.")

A few years ago, I saw a report published by the BSA on successful troops- I don't recall where it was published (at the time I was engulfed with traiing, roundtable, Pow-Wow, etc. stuff- but it was something cool enough to leave a memory). The results were interesting, and included (to the best of my feeble memory)... Successful units were those that met advancment and recruitment criteria for several years in a row. I do not remember the other specifics of the definition. Size: Surprisingly, the 'optimal' size was given at about three healthy patrols and a small youth leadership team- say 20-25 youth. Both larger and smaller units have issues that can cause difficulties. Activities: Unsurprisingly, they have a big monthly activity and bigger annual activity. Adults: Strong troops have strong adult support, but not necessarily big committees, etc. That was about it in the report- there may have been some other points, but these were the big ones. To me, they are all inter-related. You need enough adults to provide effective support (driving, leadership, etc.) To have enough adults, you need enough Scouts. Too many and things get awkward to coordinate (and a lot of the adults tend to figure someone else can do it). Too few and you always acramble to get help. Etc., etc., etc. Does anyone else remember a report like this?

"The entire point of it being a uniform is that everyone should pretty much look the same." (Lynda J quote, but echoed by others) Uniforms in general accomplish certain goals: - Making the wearer a member of a group - 'Leveling the playing field' of the wearers, making them at least more equal. - Convey some sort of message to the viewer (professional, threat, authority, servant, etc.) Nothing implicit in the definition of uniform, or in our description of uniforms in the Methods of Scouting that requires that the uniform a.) include pants, socks, etc.; or b.) be purchased from a single supply source. I believe we would get better uniforming results if we focused on the 'waist up' being the 'official uniform' brand items, with dress codes for the pants. I.e.- "Scout pants or shorts will be solid color olive slacks with no pleats or hems. Examples of appropriate pants or shorts would include (insert list here)". (Of course, I think we could find a better shirt, also- but that is just my opinion!)

Scouter Magazine October 2003 "Activity uniforms (a Scout T-shirt or polo shirt with official uniform pants or shorts and socks) are allowed for less formal public appearances." I did not mention the pants/shorts because I wasn't interested in that can of worms. All I was pointing out in that was that I have seen situations in which every Scout wore the same type of shirt, and others in which we did not care WHICH shirt the Scout wore.

I think the 'they're too busy' thinking is a basic schism in the Scouts, and is often the result of the adults THINKING they know the Scouts and being wrong... mixed up with just a touch of laziness (it is often easier to just have MB classes and football games than to run a real Scout program). Once they get the hang of things, kids LIKE to plan and cook meals and do other basic Scouting things. Once everyone is on the same page, Scouts get more out of their MBs when they are not basically handed to them for attending the right number of classes. So, how do you get out of this rut? In all honestly- you may not be able to, not by yourself. It will take a fairly united effort by most of the adult and youth leadership. I think I'd pitch it about now- in the early summer (after summer camp and high adventure is planned well but before the annual program planning). Pitch what Scouting CAN be to the group of adult and youth leaders that will be in charge next year. Challenge them to stir up things and see what will happen. Also read Mark Ray's "The Scoutmasters Other Handbook" for other ideas. He has a lot of good stuff in there.