madkins007

More and more I am in favor of privately owned tents, as long as there are other options for those without a tent, or for newer Scouts until they and their family learn how to shop for a tent.

At events we came up (with input from the adult and youth leadership) a checklist for things like camp hygiene, food safety, patrol management, etc. Each item on the list can be ranked with 0, 1, or 2 points, depending on how well it is done (not at all, done OK, done very well). A simple checklist would have done the same thing, but we wanted to recognize extra effort. The total possible score was 40. You had to get over 20 to pass, AND you had to get a 1 on some key issues (camp and food safety issues mostly) to be allowed to proceed to the next event or to have free time, depending on the structure of the camp. We presented and used this as a learning tool, aiming at the reward more than the penalty. We worked with the patrol leader or Scout in charge of a task to help them understand what the expectation is and how to get there, and we tried to give them a chance to correct things on the spot whenever possible. OK, so when we get everyone up above the cut-off point (not hard to do!), we focused on rewarding the extra effort demonstrated. Most of the time, we offered rewards at the 35+ point range- and on most campouts, everyone hit it. Some of the inspection points included things like: - Patrol cooking gear properly cleaned and stowed - Patrol food stored properly for sanitation - Food stored safe from critters - Patrol job list posted and followed - Patrol area cleaned up - Patrol flags displayed in patrol area - Patrol uniform inspection before assembly - etc. Some were added for summer camp, others used for camporees, others for other purposes.

Sounds like a great idea! I'd charge admission, AND try to run concession stands! You really CANNOT ask for donations. If you can't ask for an admission fee, I'd try some creative alternatives, like selling food, washing windshields, renting comfy chairs, maybe even charging for the parking space or speakers ('you can get in for free, but the parking is $5, or you can rent a chair for $2, and/or a personal speaker for $5' sort of thing). As for legality of charging admission... you said "I have found places to rent the equipment". Just ask them about the actual movies. Most places that rent the gear know the laws and often have what it takes to do so legally (like factoring in the copyright fees into the rentals). I am lucky enough to live not too far from a still-active drive in, and a lot of groups rent the place out for fundraising on the slower nights- fun times!

United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 4 "The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." I don't see that this applies. The ruling is a clarification or intrepretation of existing laws. It is not your property (in the sense of legal ownership) that is at risk, etc. There is also the implication that the signal is to draw attention for rescue. Do YOU or your house need rescue here? I also wonder about the effectiveness as a symbolic act. Unless you also plan on putting up a big sign explaining WHY you are doing this, it would be about as effective as tying a purple ribbon in a tree... In fact, that is not a bad idea! Why not get Scouts and sympathizers in your area to tie red (or another Scout color) ribbons in trees on thir property to protest the action, then try to rile up some news coverage of it? I STRONGLY support the idea of taking action and using a symbol, I am just wondering about the particular symbol you are thinking of.

Looking at a few objections to X-Ray's post... re: Rechartering schedule- At least some councils do indeed follow the calendar year for rechartering and budgeting. No idea if every council does, but it would not surprise me to find that National requests such for whatever reasons. Even if the council or district followed a different schedule, the process of adding names and units could still be followed. re: charters reflecting boys who have dropped- This is not the big problem. The big problems are boys added without the unit's knowledge (handled internally- sometimes discovered by accident), and ghost units. re: Salaries- the 100K-250K range seems right based on disclosed salaries, and I know many of the perks listed were offered in one local council. I don't claim to know whether this is an appropriate compensation. re: Ghost units warning signs- X-Ray's list is pretty decent. Ghost units tend to be small- but that does not mean that a small unit is a ghost unit, nor do I think he tried to claim such. Ghost units obviously do not produce advancement or attend meetings or events. (I once saw a list of Explorer posts (just before they were shifted to LFL) and absolutely KNOW that many of them were ghosts- it was an open joke in the office among the more senior staff. In fact, one post that was trying to register as a newly formed unit was surprised to find they already existed and had registered leaders no one there had ever heard of.) re: CO and unit responsibility- I am not sure what COs (or CMs/SMs and CCs) can do to keep this from happening in their unit- the majority of fraud I know about happened entirely without their knowledge. It is not the SMs signing up ghost kids, and CORs are not signing off on ghost units or inflated charters. re: Required signatures, fees, etc.- I do not know how the people doing the frauds get around all of the stumbling blocks, only that they do- at least well enough for their purposes. I know some DEs paid dues out of their own pockets and submitted the costs for reimbursement under other names. I know some forms are submitted and look funny to Scouter Services, etc., but they are told to process them anyway so they can get chartered and it will be fixed later. Another note on perspective: 1. At this point, there is no reason to assume it is a national problem, although people in places where it is happening will usually think of it as such. I THINK it is pretty widespread, based on conversations with long-time paid staff, but I don't know that. I only know that it happened in a council I worked at a few years ago. 2. It apparently has been going on in one form or another, or to one degree or another, for a long time. My dad commented that it was 'common knowledge' when he was a commissioner in the early 70's. (Actually, considering the crashing membership of the 70's, I sorta wonder if this might not be where some of the practices got their start?) 3. In the scheme of things, it is certainly NOT a 'big deal'. Sure, it is wrong and most likely criminal, but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find another business, organization, or program that involves anywhere near the numbers and money the BSA does that does not do pretty much the same thing. Look at how common it is for government offices to wildly inflate their budget needs to protect their next-year's budget, or for a company to massively inflate projected sales to boost research and development funding. (I am not arguing that it is OK, or that nobody is hurt- just that there is a middle ground between squeaky clean and utter corruption.) 4. While this is an interesting topic of conversation, it certainly should not take energy or support away from the local units that are still delivering program regardless of what is happening on the upper levels. 5. Heck, of all the stuff I knew happened in our old council, inflated unit numbers was not among the top ten most outrageous things going on there. If I told about it here, it would seem pretty unScout-like to have happened, but it is stuff that happens in corporate America all the time. Just seems jarring to see it happen in the 'world of the 12 Laws and Oath'. On the other hand, it happens in churches, doctors offices, and such as well- we are all just humans!

Talk to the folks in your local Scouter Services office of your Scout Council office about protection and confidentiality if that will help assauge your concerns. Most of this data that you are most worried about is not kept past the initial background check. In general, the necessary data is entered into a computer (ScoutNet, I believe, in most councils) and not everything on the form is kept or entered into long-term storage. Some of the data is used for statistics and trending. Once entered, the forms are destroyed. Any BSA employee that misuses private data is terminated and prosecuted, and not that many employees have access to your raw data. When I worked in the office, about all I could access was SM and CC name and phone number (even that was only for verification purposes) I'd also bet that if you could prove that the BSA did indeed leak info you could still sue them or the individual involved, regardless of the waiver. You'll notice that Scouters do not recieve any junk mail or spam because of their membership- a great sign that the BSA is keeping the data pretty dang protected. Imagine how much you could earn if you could leak even some of the addresses to mailing list companies!

Re: Beavah and Bob White (Hmm, maybe I should be going by Antelope (Loper?) 1.) I've seen units make the traditional size (6-8) work, and I've been in a troop where I believe 10-12 would have worked better because of weak attendence (for several reasons). I think the traditional BSA guideline should be followed unless you have a strong reason for change. 2.) I've worked with both kinds of troops here as well, and I am far more in favor of mixed patrols (with other options for older Scouts) than in the New Scout Patrol. I feel the older-style mixed patrols better embody Patrol Method in terms of advancement, leadership development, etc. than a New Socut Patrol does- but I have also seen many units have roaring success with NSP's, so again, I think whatever works for your needs (within the guidelines). 3.) I don't think I would build my summer camp plans around dining style, although poor food quality is certainly a consideration! 4.) While I use the National Patrol Honor Award to encourage a stronger patrol structure, at events I have often used a point system successfully. My system is generally to have a 'pass/fail' cut off point, and any patrol under the line has to stay behind or use personal time to redo things. Top ranked patrols (there are often ties) earn some sort of award- sometimes food, sometimes a flag ribbon, sometimes a totem to wear, etc.

FScouter- "BSA got the money and is using it to help kids." OK, so what about other programs that got less because an unfair share was given to the BSA there? Money that could have helped the handicapped, the poor, medical research, etc.? Also, the BSA got money they did not deserve, and are using for youth OTHER than the targetted group. Isn't that a little like a family raising money to help Jerry's Kids, then using it for other budgetary issues?

I know that a lot of what X-Ray10 talks about happened in the council I used to work at as well.

Sounds like ours were when I was involved with them. I also hate the inability to offer a decent lunch, and if I had it to do over again, I'd find a local place to sell me boxed lunches cheap and pre-sell them as a seperate deal. (An approach I've taken with training sessions as well)

Comfy chair/hammock, good book, shady spot, big cooler of ice water, mister/fan, loose/comfy/lightweight clothing, 'pleasant feeling' bug and sun juice. Ahhhhh..... Keep the hot, crowded, noisy waterfront and give me a hammock between two shady trees!

No joy locally. I can't even seem to get an answer about whether or not anyone here went to the event. I have not gone so far as to camp out on the SE's desk yet, though.

Freddy- my sympathies in a tough situation. (What IS a PA? Patrol Advisor?) 1. Take Youth Protection Training (YPT) ASAP, and get all of the other leaders in your unit in it as well. 2. Usually at YPT they give you the phone numbers you need to report an incident locally- the Scout Exec's if Scouting is involved, and local Child Protective Services if not. It is an unfortunate reality that we really need to keep those numbers on hand. 3. Right now, at least 8 people know about the accusation and are already, based on your note, treating the boys differently. This is unfair if the accused is innocent- it will take a long time for the stigma to fade. Even the accuser will be marked by this in some way. 4. To make matters a bit more interesting, you are supposed to report such things within 24 hours AND in the jurisdiction they occured in. At camp, that may or may not be the same as your home council. Realistically, the way this should have gone down (in perfect 20-20 hindsight) would have been for the accuser to go to an adult leader. That adult leader should have taken immediate steps to prevent another potential incident WITHOUT making judgement on who was right or who was wrong, AND while not alerting the unit to the problem. (In this case, probably setting it up so both Scouts were either in their own tent, or in seperate tents with two leaders each in them already. The rest of the unit only need know that the two had problems sleeping- about the same way you'd probably handle night-time homesickness or bed-wetting.) Both boys should also be admonished to not talk about it to anyone else at this time. Heck, if the accused is still asleep, all you need to do to finish the camp off safely is find a new place for the accuser and leave the other boy to sleep for now. I do not believe it is necessary at this stage to confront him. If another leader needed to be involved for some step, so be it, but it should be handled purely on a 'need to know' basis to protect the rights and privacy of EVERYONE involved. Quite frankly, the SM and CC are not automatically on that need to know list. They may need a rough outline of the situation, but not necessarily the details. As soon as practical, the proper authorities should be contacted and asked for guidance. Thankfully- you don't have to do this alone!

Who is hurt faking numbers? The fakery is done in part to justify jobs, gain raises or accolades to the pros, and for other internal purposes. Were this all of it, however, it would be no big deal. The bigger concern (outside of our image) is that the inflated numbers are used to justify donations from the United Way, corporations, and other sources. Since there is only so much money available, any money we gain through manipulation is money that cannot go to another worthwhile cause. (Although, I'd bet that cooking numbers is pretty common in that whole field!)

So far, most respnses about music players, cell phones, etc. seem to fall into one or more of these camps: 1. NO- it interferes with the outdoor experience. or is contrary to the Scouting Outdoor Method. 2. NO- it does not make sense to carry things that can be broken, lost, run out of juice, add weight, etc. 3. YES, sorta- #1 or 2's reasons apply, but it is the Scout's responsibility. 4. YES- as long as it does not interfere. I don't think anyone has argued that they have the right to carry it and annoy others with it, or use it to duck out of work. Am I missing any major stands?

IBadget- while I AM NOT in favor of banning personal electronics, your chain of reasoning is flawed. A handgun is, by ANY definition, a 'portable device', but one you obviously are forbidden to take with you in many situations. Portable does NOT equal 'omnipresent'. Equally obviously, the reason you have a portable device is so you CAN take it with you when it is appropriate to do so. The real question in the discussion on this topic is whether a Scout outdoor activity is 'an approprate place'.

Kudu said "From your posts, it sounds like your priority regarding the Outdoor Method is just getting them into the woods." No, that is just the first step in my implimentation of the Outdoor Method. The rest of it don't mean much iffen you don't git their lil' fannies out there (don't know why I drifted to a odd Western accent there, but it was fun!) I've done the Volunteer Naturalist/Trail Guide gig for so long that I can still do long speils on Hop Hornbeam or Poison Ivy. I can successfully teach Webelos 7 different local trees in a half hour AND have them be able to point them out a day later. I can identify pretty much any local animal by its prints and I know enough about reading spoor to show where a fox startled a bird to flight. Astonomy is a weak point, but I can still tell great tales about the Dippers and binary star systems on Orion's belt. Many of the local campsites either sit on loess soil hills and/or have the remains of houses from the Nebraska Culture Man group and I know a bunch about both. Most of the folk posting here can outdo me in a heartbeat in this and other areas- but all of our collective wisdom, all of our love for the wilds, all of our belief in the Outdoor Method- none of it helps another person if we can't get them outside. I say let'em bring iPods, GameBoys, decks of cards, and comic books. If I can get them out there, I have a better than even chance of waking up their sense of wonder and curiosity. Remember- I just say we don't ban or list it on the 'recommend you don't bring' list. I NEVER said I wouldn't try to open their eyes to the glories of the world around them.

Ed said "And in my opinion, listening to your Walkman on a camping trip isn't appropriate. Sure there is time for fun. There is also learning time. Tell me, listening to your Walkman on a camping trip supports which Method of Scouting?" Sorry, but I HAVE to ask... which Method forbids Walkmans? Ideals, Patrols, Advancement, Adult Association, Personal Growth, Leadership Development and Uniform don't touch on it, so it must be 'Outdoors'. Cut and Pasted from the Penn. Dutch Council website :"Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoors that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with each other. It is here that skills and activities practiced at troop meetings come alive with purpose. Being close to nature helps Scouts gain an appreciation for God's handiwork and humankind's place in it. The outdoors is the laboratory for Scouts to learn ecology and practice conservation of nature's resources." It must be the 'being close to nature' bit that is the key to this. I can't help but wonder, however, what earlier generations of Scout leaders would think of the way the 'no electronics' folks camp- no trenching their tents, no cooking on open fires, no cutting tent poles and stakes at the campsite. Little axe use or pioneering. Coolers? Lighters?? Lanterns??? Where's the camp coffee pot nestled in the corner of the firepit? Where is the hand-dug latrine pit? Where are the woolen bed rolls and blanket pins? The canvas and wood backpack frames? Ah, I can already hear you saying it- these were made obsolete by changes in society, changes in the wilderness itself (and our understanding of it) and changes in technology. And hermetically sealed individual snacks and iPods are just more changes in society and technology- embraced by some, scorned by others... just like other changes in camping technology.

"Why would a kid need a Gameboy on a campout - family or Scout? Why would a kid need a Walkman on a campout - family or Scout? If the answer is because they might get bored then maybe better planning is needed. Take a walk. See what you can find in the woods. Learn how to gather wood for a fire. Enjoy your surroundings!" LOL! Ed, I could'nt agree more... for myself, but try to tell that to my 15 year old ex-Scout and he'll stare at you blankly. Taking walks is against his version of the Constitution (cruel and unusual punishment, you know), and the only thing he could find in the woods that would cheer him up would be a shortcut to an Internet cafe. I'm happy just getting them into the wild and letting them develop their own sense of what camping and communing with nature is all about.

(Quick background note- I work with adults with special needs for my job, and see the dynamics of these families constantly, this experience forms the foundation for this note.) Families of children with special needs are usually under an incredible amount of stress and hardship. Their friends usually thin out, cash runs tight, schools put demands on the families, other family members are either ignored or are turned into slave caretakers for the person with the needs, and more. The divorce rate is incredible in this community, and there is not a lot of help available to most of them. Obviously, this is also a sliding scale, not all families are showing extreme signs of all these points but almost certainly, the family is suffering in some way. We cannot fix the child or the family, and sadly, in many cases we are not equipped to help the child or the family beyond a pretty basic level. It complicates matters that the parents usually have a 'different' view of the child than other people do- seeing them as more able, less troublesome, etc. than they may seem to the rest of us. Whenever practical, I would take a child with special needs into my unit, and try to see if we can find someone to be a 'buddy' for the Scout- someone of whatever age is appropriate for the task (peer, older Scout, adult, whatever). The buddy needs to know at least something about the Scout and his needs, and tips or tricks for helping. Whenever practical, I'd also prefer this buddy to not be an immediate family member, but this is not always an option. Besides any form of a buddy for the Scout in question, your den should also have a Den Leader (you, I presume), an Assistant Den Leader, A Den Aide (an often overlooked option that is INCREDIBLY helpful! A great role for an older child or a spouse in the house where the meetings are held), A Den Chief, A Denner, and even an Assistant Denner. Each of these can take over some part of the duty of running the den (basically leaving you with the fun stuff!) In a den of 7 boys, that is 6 people in some sort of leadership/support position- not too bad a ratio even before adding the 'buddy' (call the buddy a Den Aide if you want!) I've been a Den Chief, a Cubmaster, a Committee Chair, and a Cub Leader Trainer. I think the DL has one of the hardest jobs in Scouting and needs all the help they can get. Scoutmasters get all the glory, but the average DL works a lot harder! ;-) I have always tried to make sure my DLs had all of these positions active in their groups and it really makes a difference- Socuts with special needs or not.

Self-reliance means many things to many people, from a good knowledge of outdoor skills (the ability to survive being lost, for example), to the ability to take care of yourself in a basic urban setting. I think it refers more to the confidence and awareness that you know how to take care of yourself on many levels, and having a library of basic skills you can draw from to accomplish this. Scouting offers great opportunities for people to learn self-reliance, and we also sometimes ignore other chances. For example, we do indeed teach cooking and some other basic life skills, but we have a great opportunity to teach sewing, mending, etc. as well. I've always thought it a bit odd that with all of our patches, we did not have some sort of sewing requirements. Fund-raising can teach many skills, from basic salesmanship to dogged perseverence, yet many units encourage parents to do at least some of the work. (Frankly, the top sellers in many units are obviously the parents networking. One local boy got a huge prize when his dad made arrangements for his medium-sized company to give popcorn to all employees as a Christmas gift.) Merit badge classes in meetings (as well as merit badge workshops and merit badges at camp) means that Scouts do not meet new people- experts in various areas, or work with these people to accomplish new things. They often do not get the full benefit of the experience since the agenda is often compressed to accomodate numbers of boys or short time periods, etc. Using troop equipment does not in and of itself interfere with self-reliance, but it often reduces the individual's responsibilities to care for the gear, his pride in ownership/fabrication, and his desire to try new things. Sure new tents can cost a lot, but there is a great pride and fun in making your own shelters. A cook kit from the local camping supply costs a ton, but a kit put together from a local garage sale or thrift shop only costs a bit and is probably significantly higher quality! A well-run, boy-run program is all we need to teach a great deal about self-reliance... but you can always toss in a survival campout or so to reinforce the lessons!

This is a bit off topic, and I am not aiming this at any specifc poster nor trying to start a flame, but the responses here have made me wonder... A lot of the items discussed for banning/discouragement seem to be placed on the list because they violate the posters idea of what a perfect campout should be. Some things seem to interfere with some people's ability to commune with nature or violate some sense of the 'Scouting Way', and the message seems to be that 'since it interferes with my sense of aesthetics, it ought to interefere with yours- or I'll at least teach you to believe that way'. Perhaps we ought to focus more on getting the guys out there in the first place, and let them their own sense of what the perfect campout is, even if it does not mesh with ours. Perhaps we should ask ourselves 'if this was my family campout, with the spouse or child who really did not want to come, what would I ban THEM from bringing?'. Heck, I'd be so grateful one of my kids would come I'd let him bring almost anything the park rules did not prohibit! So, why make it different in Scouts?? Sure, some things are still not appropriate, but it should be a pretty short list with pretty concrete reasons for everything. We should be able to say "don't bring THIS because..." or "we discourage THAT because..." and have the listener nod quietly at our great wisdom.

"Forbid personal snacks, and you encourage Scouts to cook cobblers or smores." (Kudu) I don't see the cause and effect relationship here. Nor do I think that there is any inherent value in cobblers or smores that make them more 'Scouting-like' than other kinds of snacks. By all means, teach a variety of cooking techniques and menus, but making people behave in concrete roles (like 'camping = no pre-packaged snacks, even though everyone else in the park is going that route') does not strike me as particularly Scout-like or helpful in advancing our cause. Besides, I REALLY dislike s'mores! Nasty, gooey flamin' calorie bombs! ;-)

Youth wear sports uniforms because they have great pride in their team and their role on the team. Youth rarely wear school uniforms away from school no matter how much they like their school, but they will often wear school T-shirts and sweats to brag it up. Could it be that youth are not as proud to be Scouts as they once were? Even in my day, we rarely wore anything in 'civilian life' that marked us as Scouts, and fought tooth and nail against wearing the Scout uniform to school on 'approved' days (at least past about the 4th or 5th grade). And if pride is a major issue, what can we do, locally or nationally, to reinstill pride in our Scouts?

Re: uniforms as memories- I kept a LOT of my old patches and will treasure them always. I have a memory box for my son's patches and hope that he will ask for them one day. Keeping the entire shirt is a bit packrat-ish in my mind. Don Anslett ("Clutter's Last Stand") argues as well for keeping good memory items, but 'miniatureizing' them to reduce the clutter we can so easily accumulate.